2013 V7 starting woes

[V7Record]

Went for a nice ride today, temp in the mid 70's I did about 60 miles and stopped to top up the tank.

Went to start afterwards, turned the key, heard the fuel pump run, watched the needles sweep, voltmeter looked good, hit the starter and "CLACK!"

The solenoid did it's thing but not the starter, the dash went black for 5-10 seconds, and then the fuel pump and needles did their thing again.  Same result multiple times.  I tried bumping it a bit while in gear but no change.  After about 10 minutes and as I prepared to try a running bump start, I held the clutch in and hit the starter and it spun right up.
 
Booked it for home and after I shut it down at home I tried restarting and same thing, no spin.

Figure I'll check the starter ground first but looking for any other ideas.  It got a new battery last year and I've got 2 voltmeters attached, one at the dash I can see while riding and one right at the battery with a momentary switch.  Both were reading 13.3-13.5.
I've got a 30 second video, is any way to attach it?  Or would I have to host it elsewhere?
Brian

[Tkelly]

Check battery connections.

[Vagrant]

 After checking and cleaning terminals put a volt meter on the terminals and see what you get when cranking. Sounds like a bad battery.

[Muzz]

If the battery is ok then a somewhat obscure fault has shown up with my starter on my '03 Breva. There is a metal shroud inside it, presumably to keep grease/oil mist from gumming up the brushes.  This had come loose, floated around and worn the shellac off the copper windings on the armature.  Clack but no start.  i removed it, wondering why they didn't make it out of nylon or something and thought I will just take it apart every now and then and free it up.  Still starts after some 22,000 miles, all be it with a bit of startus interruptus.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hi Brian, very good description of the symptoms
First of all for the dash to go black it must be at low Voltage, we just have to figure out why.
Please start by scraping the battery posts to eliminate the possibility that it's lead oxide disconnecting the battery, swipe some Vaseline on the posts to prevent it coming back.
Please take a battery Voltage reading mid clack (while the starter is trying to turn.
There is also the possibility that you have a bad ground, on the later V7III its a large lug right on top of the gearbox, remove and scrape that as well, with some grease to prevent corrosion.
Here is the wiring schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Note the purple wire going from Start Relay (6) to Starter (19), that caries about 40 Amps while starting, the starter is drawn wrong, there are actually two coils in the solenoid.
Getting back to the dash going blank it gets its power from Fuse C so it must be dropping low eh! Fuse C is fed from Fuse F via the ignition switch (14), my guess is the Voltage is lost along the way.
I'm assuming you have one of your Voltmeters connected to a switched fuse A,B or C so you have the ideal setup, mid clack with the start button pressed what does it read there while the starter is trying to turn?
-----------------------
"Startus interuptus" is the name given to the clack no turney situation. On nearly every Guzzi for the last 50 years its caused by the huge inrush current to the starter solenoid and the weak wiring that fails to support it.
The fix on most Guzzis has been to eliminate the weak wiring through the ignition switch and replace the Start Relay feed with a feed direct from the battery via a 20 Amp fuse.
On many of the earlier models its been found that the grease inside the ignition switch has gone hard with age tending to hold the contacts apart, the same switch has been used for many years at least back as far as 2000 that I know of.
I took mine apart to take some pictures here https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=110098.msg1747391#msg1747391

[sign216]

V7Record,
Look at KiwiRoy's instructions, as he's The Man when it comes to electrical.  In addition to checking the ground and battery connections, also check the connections at the starter and starter solenoid.  Connections are a likely problem, and easy to check/fix. 

Also, consider adding a dedicated ground.  Have a line going from the bolt on the transmission, right to the battery neg terminal.
Joe

[Kiwi_Roy]

Before you go too far try hot wiring the solenoid.
Take a wire with spade connector and connect it to the spade lug on the solenoid, touch the other end to battery positive. This will bypass all the bikes secondary wiring to pull the solenoid in.
If the bike cranks over you have eliminated the Battery, starter and all the main connections.
If it fails to crank of course you have other problems.
CAUTION, make sure you are in neutral or it could launch, pull the clutch in for extra safety.

[V7Record]

I haven't had time to check everything yet but wanted to quick thank those who replied here and/or via PM.

I did get to do a test start.  After sitting for 2 days since I had the issue it fired right up.  Watching my voltmeter across the battery while it cranked I saw it drop from 13.4 to 10.4 (almost too quick to catch it).  After running about 30 seconds I shut it down and tried again.  This time it dropped to 9.9, cranked a couple times, but didn't start.  (no CLACK!)  Third try it dropped to 10.2 and started.  This time I let it run for a few minutes, ran the rpm's up to ~3500 with voltage running between 13.4-14.2.

When I get some more time later this week I'll pull and clean the battery connections and the starter ground, then follow up with a couple more tests.
Almost wish it hadn't started and there was something definitive I could point to, inconsistent behavior can be aggravating.
Thanks again,
Brian

[blu guzz]

The battery is not original is it?  I know it is unlikely to last that long, but not impossible.  If not original, then plus/minus 3 years.  In either of these instances I would be suspicious of it.

[SmithSwede]

The fact that it started is actually good news.  It means almost all the major systems are ok.

People suffer lots of stupid and persistent problems due to old, dodgy batteries.  For some reason they hesitate to buy a new battery and chase ghosts. I would strongly suggest just buying a new battery.  They are cheap.  Don’t futz around.  Worst case, you have a new, known good battery.  That’s not a bad thing.  Then you can give your old, maybe good battery to somebody you don’t like. 

Next clean the battery contacts, cable ends, and ground connection well with a scotch bright pad. 

I bet your problems go away.   

You really don’t want a battery that is kinda maybe good.  That kind of battery works well enough to get you far from home and then strands you. 

I finally learned to just replace my batteries every 3 years.  Even if they seem ok.   I figure I’m avoiding a lot of headaches.

Please report back if you fix the problem.  That is useful data for the forum.   Good luck

[sign216]

Swede,

He said he got a new battery last year.  With abuse, a battery can fail in a year, or it's possible it's got a bad cell.
But it should be okay.

Joe

[Kiwi_Roy]

When you did the second test at 9.9 Volts and it didn't start, I wonder if there is a low limit beyond which the injectors and spark doesn't fire, I notice if my Griso battery is a bit low it will spin over but doesn't fire either.
Anything over 10 and my V7 bursts into life.

[SmithSwede]

When you did the second test at 9.9 Volts and it didn't start, I wonder if there is a low limit beyond which the injectors and spark doesn't fire, I notice if my Griso battery is a bit low it will spin over but doesn't fire either.
Anything over 10 and my V7 bursts into life.

You’re probably right Roy.  As usual.  There could be a hard voltage limit. 

The real issue of course is why his bike dives below this limit.  I bet it is something really simple.  Bum battery.  Grotty connections.   

[Kiwi_Roy]

You’re probably right Roy.  As usual.  There could be a hard voltage limit. 

The real issue of course is why his bike dives below this limit.  I bet it is something really simple.  Bum battery.  Grotty connections.

If you look at this picture closely (click on it) you will see a thin film of grease smeared across the ignition switch contacts, as the bike gets older the grease starts getting hard tending to hold the contacts apart and increasing the resistance (dropping the Voltage to Brian's meter under cranking), i'm not sure where the meter is connected but it must be somewhere downstream of the switch.
Why put grease on the contacts at all? If the contacts are left dry they will quickly wear away. I swear by fresh Vaseline for this type of wiping contact, it's all I ever used as an electrician.

This resistance is a common cause of "Startus Interuptus", the starter solenoid would like at least 20 Amps to engage the starter gear, you won't get that through a pair of contacts at even half an Ohm.
Guzzi in their wisdom insist on feeding the start relay contacts down stream of the ignition switch.
I have been waiting for the V7s to start failing from this cause.

[elvisboy77]

I haven't had time to check everything yet but wanted to quick thank those who replied here and/or via PM.

I did get to do a test start.  After sitting for 2 days since I had the issue it fired right up.  Watching my voltmeter across the battery while it cranked I saw it drop from 13.4 to 10.4 (almost too quick to catch it).  After running about 30 seconds I shut it down and tried again.  This time it dropped to 9.9, cranked a couple times, but didn't start.  (no CLACK!)  Third try it dropped to 10.2 and started.  This time I let it run for a few minutes, ran the rpm's up to ~3500 with voltage running between 13.4-14.2.

When I get some more time later this week I'll pull and clean the battery connections and the starter ground, then follow up with a couple more tests.
Almost wish it hadn't started and there was something definitive I could point to, inconsistent behavior can be aggravating.
Thanks again,
Brian

I would put it on a trickle charger (like battery tender) and let it sit.

An analog meter will show you things that a digital one will not.

[SmithSwede]

Roy.  Good point.  What do you recommend for the starter solenoid?  Add a relay so the ignition switch only deploys the relay?  That should be easy since the starter motor is so close to the battery.   Then what?  12 gauge wire from battery to main contacts of new relay

[SmithSwede]

Another joker about this switch.  At least on mine, there was nothing securing the wiring to the switch, other than the little ball of solder at the end of the wire inside the switch.  No zip tie, bracket, clamp or glue.  So any time the wiring is put in tension, like when turning your handlebars, the stress is applied to the little ball of solder. 

I glued my wiring to the bottom of the switch so tension is only transferred to the switch housing, not the delicate soldered contacts.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy.  Good point.  What do you recommend for the starter solenoid?  Add a relay so the ignition switch only deploys the relay?  That should be easy since the starter motor is so close to the battery.   Then what?  12 gauge wire from battery to main contacts of new relay

You really just need a better feed for relay (6)/5 either via a new 20 Amp fuse from the battery or perhaps direct from the R/W  wire thats on the other side of the switch. I note that R/W wire goes to relay (28)/5 perhaps it could be diverted there
!2 gauge wire would be overkill, 16 or 18 gauge even would be a big improvement. The heavy current to the solenoid only lasts for a few milliseconds.
If I get a chance in the next few days I will pull my tank and have a peek.
Note: If you take the starer solenoid load off the ignition switch it should also also boost the Voltage seen by the ECU and injectors etc.
The solenoid can draw as much as 40 Amps for a split second droping down to about 10 while it spins the motor, Of course the motor draws 100+ Amps.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Another joker about this switch.  At least on mine, there was nothing securing the wiring to the switch, other than the little ball of solder at the end of the wire inside the switch.  No zip tie, bracket, clamp or glue.  So any time the wiring is put in tension, like when turning your handlebars, the stress is applied to the little ball of solder. 

I glued my wiring to the bottom of the switch so tension is only transferred to the switch housing, not the delicate soldered contacts.

Yes, usually the wires snap right next to the solder ball, with constant bending the wire work hardens and gets brittle, the wires are quite short which doesn't help.
I suggested elsewhere its not a bad idea to try bypassing the switch at the fuses in case a wire should snap off or perhaps you should lose the key, of course you still have to get the seat off without a key, thats not too hard.
Here you have a similar switch from a VII, the green wire has snapped off with constant bending. (Click on it to see the full picture)