How do you define 'character' in a bike?

[Scud]

My example is this:  I rode Japanese 4 cylinder bikes before I got my first Beemer.  The year was 1997 and the bike was a 1984 R100RS.   

Similar for me. I had three inline fours, a Honda 350 and two Yamahas (600 Radian and FJ1100). When I got my 1981 R100CS in the early 90's I learned the phrase "they all do that." This was in response the bike's "character." I learned to co-operate with that machine and how to find the sweet spots in the engine and suspension. I rode that thing everywhere. When I "upgraded" to an R1100RT some years later, I started to get bored of riding. It was objectively more competent, and it served me well as a commuter, but I didn't take it out just for the joy of riding - only if I had somewhere to go.

Then I got to the point in life where I could have more than one motorcycle and I bought a new Ducati Sport Classic Monoposto to put beside the RT. In retrospect, I should have bought and held the Paul Smart version that I really wanted, but that's beside the point. Related to character, the point is, one day one of my surf buddies came over and asked why I had two motorcycles. Now, he had about a dozen surfboards, and he was not a motorcycle rider. So to put it in terms he could understand, I said "The BMW is my longboard, and the Ducati is my shortboard." He instantly said: "Say no more."

[Stretch]

It's hard to define.

I've had one or two machines that built character in the motorcyclist, though!   

                                                                    -Stretch

[Vagrant]

Further to the point.  Several years ago I worked at the Guzzi demo tent at Americade.  It was ASTOUNDING how many test riders came off the bikes and mentioned how much they did NOT like them.  The idiot (yes, correct term) "big" shots NEVER asked why-they were way too busy looking at their phones and quite content to let us "pleebs" deal with the masses.  Finally, it bugged me to the point that I started to chat with returning riders.  Low and behold, simply by asking a few questions I discovered that the vast majority of test riders were keeping the bikes MUCH too low in the rev range.  Most were riding them like H-D big twins.  Ever the cleaver one, I started letting test riders know to keep the revs up a bit.  Don't ya know the feedback got much better after that.  The HQ guys could not have cared less.  I learned a LOT that weekend.

Exactly! True for almost all factory owned distributorships.  Most of these so called specialists are so busy looking for their next big paying job they could cate less.

[twowheeladdict]

Further to the point.  Several years ago I worked at the Guzzi demo tent at Americade.  It was ASTOUNDING how many test riders came off the bikes and mentioned how much they did NOT like them.  The idiot (yes, correct term) "big" shots NEVER asked why-they were way too busy looking at their phones and quite content to let us "pleebs" deal with the masses.  Finally, it bugged me to the point that I started to chat with returning riders.  Low and behold, simply by asking a few questions I discovered that the vast majority of test riders were keeping the bikes MUCH too low in the rev range.  Most were riding them like H-D big twins.  Ever the cleaver one, I started letting test riders know to keep the revs up a bit.  Don't ya know the feedback got much better after that.  The HQ guys could not have cared less.  I learned a LOT that weekend.

Yep.  I am shifting my Harley where the Guzzi just starts to get interesting.  Of course I am shifting my Guzzi where the KLX300SM just starts to get interesting. 

[LowRyter]

Further to the point.  Several years ago I worked at the Guzzi demo tent at Americade.  It was ASTOUNDING how many test riders came off the bikes and mentioned how much they did NOT like them.  The idiot (yes, correct term) "big" shots NEVER asked why-they were way too busy looking at their phones and quite content to let us "pleebs" deal with the masses.  Finally, it bugged me to the point that I started to chat with returning riders.  Low and behold, simply by asking a few questions I discovered that the vast majority of test riders were keeping the bikes MUCH too low in the rev range.  Most were riding them like H-D big twins.  Ever the cleaver one, I started letting test riders know to keep the revs up a bit.  Don't ya know the feedback got much better after that.  The HQ guys could not have cared less.  I learned a LOT that weekend.

I take your point but at the same time, if a rider just can't figure out how to use the throttle grip and feel the powerband on a motorcycle, perhaps they really aren't cut out to ride. 

Just my opinion.  I might be wrong.   

[kingoffleece]

You may have a point but then again, I'm just passing on what I know to be true at this event.  Perhaps too much credit is given to the fact that an owner must, by virtue of ownership, be assumed to have any degree at all of competency.  I'm personally not ready to assume that.

[twowheeladdict]

I take your point but at the same time, if a rider just can't figure out how to use the throttle grip and feel the powerband on a motorcycle, perhaps they really aren't cut out to ride. 

Just my opinion.  I might be wrong.   

Most sane riders aren't going to get on an unfamiliar bike and goose the throttle.

Kawasaki makes a line of small displacement parallel twin bikes that rev to over 12,000 RPMs.  Most riders are not used to revving that high and then come on the forums and complain about the lack of power.  When you say rev them above 8000 to get into the meat of the power curve they say they don't want to hurt the bike, and those that will never rev it eventually sell and get a larger displacement bike that they never rev either. 

[JJ]

I recently swapped rides with my buddy's lovely red Ducati ST2. 

The Ducati's engine / gearbox / handling / throttle response / braking is much smoother than my poor ol Centauro.

However, the mighty Centauro (aka, "The Pregnant Shrimp") makes up for it in visceral brute power and grunt...and you feel that when you twist the throttle above 5,000-6,000 RPM.

My buddy Mike commented:  "Your Centauro turns into a completely different motorcycle above 70 mph!"

Yes, indeed...and thus another example of "character and soul" of a motorcycle...

[ITSec]

It is about personification. It's about feeling connected to the bike.

It's not about faults per se, but a lack of boring level perfection which would make it feel inhuman, bland, vanilla.

Yes too smooth, too good a suspension, etc. would come across as too much "perfection" and as such BE FAULTS to ME.

I want something that gives me feedback.

What are the closing lines from Serenity? Captain Mal is saying to his little albatross (River):

"You know what the first rule of flying is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta' fall down, tells you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her a home."

What can I say about someone who quotes a Firefly character while eloquently making the exact point I would make? Thanks, Kev!

It's not that an FJR has no character, it's that the character is bland, without distinguishing elements (except maybe a funky transmission) - and BORING. Boring is good for appliances - no one wants a toaster that has too much character. But I don't want to ride a toaster!

[ITSec]

It's pretty much what Kate Walsh says in the Cadillac CTS ad.

When you turn your bike on does it return the favor?

Which might be exactly the right example - a Cadillac CTS has so little character (at least in my eyes) that it's the perfect case for a vehicle that would NEVER return the favor!

[Moparnut72]

What can I say about someone who quotes a Firefly character while eloquently making the exact point I would make? Thanks, Kev!

It's not that an FJR has no character, it's that the character is bland, without distinguishing elements (except maybe a funky transmission) - and BORING. Boring is good for appliances - no one wants a toaster that has too much character. But I don't want to ride a toaster!

Can't ride a toaster, too small, need a refrigerator.   
kk

[Kev m]

Did someone say toaster?!?

[Rough Edge racing]

I heard a new touring bike will be based on the Buick limited. The manufacturer feels four wheels will be required to support the 5200 pound curb weight.

     

[Motormike]

When asked why he didn't have more Japanese bikes in his collection, Jay Leno once responded, "Because they don't need me!"

[Tatsudoshi]

Character is the conversation the bike has with you when you’re riding

With some bikes the communication is pronounced and with other bikes it’s hard to make out the conversation.

My 1200 Sport speaks volumes to me every time we ride.

You Sir have nailed it and as a matter of fact Sonja ( MG V7 II Special ) and I just had a great conversation this morning.
I very much look forward to our conversations...

[Chuck in Indiana]

When asked why he didn't have more Japanese bikes in his collection, Jay Leno once responded, "Because they don't need me!"

Obviously, Jay gets it.

I want something that gives me feedback.

There I go agreeing with Kev again..
And..
"If I have to tell you, you wouldn't understand." 

[Scott of the Sahara]

After riding a Suzuki GS 750 for a year, I thought my Moto Guzzi Norge had character. (it does)
Then I purchased a Ural. That makes the Moto Guzzi look and feel refined and precision. (and reliable)

[willowstreetguzziguy]

It’s been said “A car moves your body but a motorcycle moves your soul.” I think a bike with character is what they’re referring to.

[ozarquebus]

Definition

character: 1. the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual.

since bikes have neither morals nor intelligence (yet), a bike's character is only an anthropomorphizatio n projected by the human

character 2. a person in a novel, play, or movie.

now in there are some examples. ie El Pederoso from Motorcycle Diaries,  Jupiter from Ted Simon's Jupiter's Travels.


and more characters unknown:
https://overlandmag.com/resources/history-2/history-up-to-1920s/

[kingoffleece]

Most sane riders aren't going to get on an unfamiliar bike and goose the throttle.

Kawasaki makes a line of small displacement parallel twin bikes that rev to over 12,000 RPMs.  Most riders are not used to revving that high and then come on the forums and complain about the lack of power.  When you say rev them above 8000 to get into the meat of the power curve they say they don't want to hurt the bike, and those that will never rev it eventually sell and get a larger displacement bike that they never rev either.

Well, again, to quote kev, I dunno.  It might be suggested that to get on a demo bike and ride it exactly like your current bike has the very real potential to reveal exactly nothing at all.  Any bike I ever get to try I'll open the throttle all the way.  Not to WACK open an unfamiliar bike, but yes, I'll open it.  But I get not goosing............ ...................

makes me recall all the idiots who bought a real 911-rear air cooled and 3 pedals that passed thru the vertical firewall.  Because they owned it they were "real drivers" until at first real time at pace swapped ends faster than they knew what hit them.

[ozarquebus]

Another analogy:

Leitz Summicron lens flare = character to Leica lovers

Leitz Summicron lens flare = crummy lens to digital guys

[LowRyter]

You may have a point but then again, I'm just passing on what I know to be true at this event.  Perhaps too much credit is given to the fact that an owner must, by virtue of ownership, be assumed to have any degree at all of competency.  I'm personally not ready to assume that.

So why blame Guzzi  to sell bikes to incompetent riders?  They were Harley riders and weren't going to change.  If they couldn't twist a throttle or look at the redline on the tach, they were never going to get it.

I agree with your main point.  Brief them and say, "we're not going out of town, don't go past third gear".   

You think that might have made an impression?   

[LowRyter]

Most sane riders aren't going to get on an unfamiliar bike and goose the throttle.

Kawasaki makes a line of small displacement parallel twin bikes that rev to over 12,000 RPMs.  Most riders are not used to revving that high and then come on the forums and complain about the lack of power.  When you say rev them above 8000 to get into the meat of the power curve they say they don't want to hurt the bike, and those that will never rev it eventually sell and get a larger displacement bike that they never rev either.

A rider doesn't have to goose the throttle to use the throttle.  A rider can look at the redline on the tach and feel the power curve.

Anyway, if a bike feels slow, I wouldn't  crack the throttle and shift.  I'd give it more more throttle until it was going at the right speed or find out that it didn't have enough power to get there. 

[Perazzimx14]

Further to the point.  Several years ago I worked at the Guzzi demo tent at Americade.  It was ASTOUNDING how many test riders came off the bikes and mentioned how much they did NOT like them.  The idiot (yes, correct term) "big" shots NEVER asked why-they were way too busy looking at their phones and quite content to let us "pleebs" deal with the masses.  Finally, it bugged me to the point that I started to chat with returning riders.  Low and behold, simply by asking a few questions I discovered that the vast majority of test riders were keeping the bikes MUCH too low in the rev range.  Most were riding them like H-D big twins.  Ever the cleaver one, I started letting test riders know to keep the revs up a bit.  Don't ya know the feedback got much better after that.  The HQ guys could not have cared less.  I learned a LOT that weekend.

If you are unfamiliar with Guzzi they are a lot like a sidecar. Ride one for 5 or 10  miles and there's a good chance you'll hate it. Ride one for 500 or 1000 miles and you'll start coming around. It takes time to warm to them.

As far a character bikes, bricks, I-beams are all inanimate objects. The character as far as motorcycles are concerned is the guy riding it.

[s1120]

In a way IMHO character is acquired like the aging of fine whisky. My first bike was a Suzuki GS400. It aged me from being a novice street rider to at least one that survived that first critical year of street riding and acquired higher skill levels from there. After some mods it slayed stock 1200 sporty H-Ds so I consider that character.
The T-3 then delivered it in spades from the way it rides to the comments it gets to the reminders it can sometime give me if I am not doing my riding part or saving my ass because I didn't do my part.
GliderJohn

Having also started out on that same bike, I can say that the character also changes with experience..  As a new street rider working on, and riding that bike, at the time had a ton of it. Those first street miles, and having that bike bumping along the road..  Feeling that first rush of "power"..  Going WAYYYY too fast into my street that first time, and overshooting the road, and up on the side walk, and still keeping me upright.  Learning how to fix, and clean a street bike..  Today I would think its a pretty bland bike..  and really is was, but in the day, as a first time rider it was alive, and reved up my spirt far faster then its own motor could.

[9fingers]

That is a good question. My V Strom 650 is an excellent bike, a very good tool, but almost totally lacks character. My Royal Enfield Classic Chrome Bullet has tons of it. And my V 7III Special is loaded with it. I think I would define it as something that causes a positive emotional response. And I LOVE my V7!
Scott