V85TT O2 Emulator

[egschade]

Has anyone tried this O2 emulator from AF1? Different than a Booster Plug in that it's adjustable.

The reason your bike suffers from poor fuel economy and throttle response is emissions mandated lean fueling, also the cause of the extreme heat coming from the exhaust system and very hot running in town, this device SIMPLY plugs inline with the stock oxygen sensor and allows a small reduction in the voltage of the return signal to the ECU, which richens the mixture. This results in improved throttle response, fuel economy (I know this seems contradictory) and smoother running at cruise.

There is NO full throttle power gain to be expected since it does not alter wide open throttle fueling. The difference when riding the bike however is night and day, AND the device is adjustable.

You CANNOT make the motor run leaner with this mod anywhere in the rpm range but it is adjustable from an effective zero change from stock to very rich, we recommend you try the "as delivered” setting on the trip screw first and make only very small adjustments from there.

https://www.af1racing.com/Fat-Duc-O2-Emulator-For-Aprilia-MotoGuzzi-Vespa

[dxhall]

I don’t think there is one.  Todd at Guzzitech has written about the trouble he has had in accessing the stock software.  As of a few months ago, I think the only alternative maps were Todd’s and one by an outfit in Australia. 

[Bisbonian]

There is no "Beetle map" available for the V85TT.

[egschade]

There is no "Beetle map" available for the V85TT.

Hence the question about booster vs emulator. Let's see if someone comes along with experience on either of these products.

[rdtricks]

Are you looking for one (1) or two (2) of the emulators?  I have a single unit available if you are interested - new and unused.  I am asking $40.00 PayPal friends and family and I will cover shipping via UPS.  If interested PM me and we can discuss this further.

[egschade]

What is the difference between a "booster" and an "emulator" ? Sorry , aren't we really just talking about the same thing?

 Dusty

From what I can gather is they do the same thing in that they trick the ECU into enriching the mixture in the closed (or is it open?) loop. What's different is the booster is a sealed unit for $160 while the emulator is tunable for $80. The other difference is the booster plugs into the temp sensor while the emulator plugs into the O2 sensor - which means you probably need 2 as the V85 uses two sensors.

[Guzzistajohn]

Roper used to speak highly of those things- NOT

[egschade]

Posted on Beetle's Farcebook page, "Maps for the V85TT now available. Owners with Y-Pipes and aftermarket exhausts with the dB killer installed, I now have a map available for you. Linear power delivery with up to 51 mpg!"  http://www.griso.org/?fbclid=IwAR2fxNqxifoQKDvF2_5kQuhINVx9Hv6UDXWZEdd7UlO75YV3ntgHp7PbFx8

Looks like I won't be needing an emulator after all? I've reached out to Mark and will post up his response. His map for the 8V Griso was a terrific upgrade.

[Kiwi Dave]

First of all, make sure you have the latest factory map.

CM281714_7621GA14_H 320__2F6_V85TT_EU

7621GA15 for Eu & World, 7621GC15 for USA

I then installed an earlier version of Beetles map to reduce the popping on overrun.  Then there was the bricking ECU scare, at which point I left things as they now are. 

[egschade]

First of all, make sure you have the latest factory map.

CM281714_7621GA14_H 320__2F6_V85TT_EU

7621GA15 for Eu & World, 7621GC15 for USA

I then installed an earlier version of Beetles map to reduce the popping on overrun.  Then there was the bricking ECU scare, at which point I left things as they now are.

I was current when Jim Hamlin checked it at the NH rally but will confirm. I ran through the instructions quickly and there is guidance on how to avoid the bricking issue so I'm pretty confident it won't be a problem. My next step is to ensure I have the correct cables per the instructions and load up the apps on my new PC.

[mondtster]

Posted on Beetle's Farcebook page, "Maps for the V85TT now available. Owners with Y-Pipes and aftermarket exhausts with the dB killer installed, I now have a map available for you. Linear power delivery with up to 51 mpg!" 

Looks like I won't be needing an emulator after all? I've reached out to Mark and will post up his response. His map for the 8V Griso was a terrific upgrade.

That's great news. I know when I contacted him earlier this year he said it was close but that it wasn't ready yet. I've been watching his site hoping for an update but didn't know about the facebook post.

I'm looking forward to reading what his response is. I'll send in a request for a map as well.

[pauldaytona]

The euro 5 models from 2021 won't do anything with any Guzzidiag program now. We are planning to get all working but will take time.

[Bisbonian]

So it seems I was hasty when I said there were no Beetle maps available for the V85, at least for those prior to 2021.

I contacted Beetle on the link shown above and requested a map yesterday, he replied and asked for my current map so that he could modify it. I had already downloaded my current map a few months ago while I was seeing how GuzziDiag works so I sent him that copy.

This morning I had a fresh map sitting in my inbox, I should get a chance to upload it this afternoon and then hopefully go for a ride this weekend.

[egschade]

So it seems I was hasty when I said there were no Beetle maps available for the V85, at least for those prior to 2021.

I contacted Beetle on the link shown above and requested a map yesterday, he replied and asked for my current map so that he could modify it. I had already downloaded my current map a few months ago while I was seeing how GuzziDiag works so I sent him that copy.

This morning I had a fresh map sitting in my inbox, I should get a chance to upload it this afternoon and then hopefully go for a ride this weekend.

That's great! Please let us know how it goes. I intend to do my bike when I return from vacation in a couple weeks.

[elvisboy77]

So this miracle widget says your bike has bad fuel economy because it is running so lean?  And they will improve this by what, more fuel?  And this results in better fuel economy?

Is this some sort of prank?  Serious question.

[mondtster]

So it seems I was hasty when I said there were no Beetle maps available for the V85, at least for those prior to 2021.

I contacted Beetle on the link shown above and requested a map yesterday, he replied and asked for my current map so that he could modify it. I had already downloaded my current map a few months ago while I was seeing how GuzziDiag works so I sent him that copy.

This morning I had a fresh map sitting in my inbox, I should get a chance to upload it this afternoon and then hopefully go for a ride this weekend.

Did he give you any information on what he altered/improved?

I sent him a message a couple days ago and am still waiting to hear back.

[Bisbonian]

Did he give you any information on what he altered/improved?

I sent him a message a couple days ago and am still waiting to hear back.

No, but I didn't ask. I told him my setup and he sent me a map to try. I get the feeling we're still in the beta stage.

[egschade]

So this miracle widget says your bike has bad fuel economy because it is running so lean?  And they will improve this by what, more fuel?  And this results in better fuel economy?

Is this some sort of prank?  Serious question.

My guess is that a richer mixture will require less throttle to make power in any given situation, resulting in better MPG. That said, it IS counterintuitive. I'll trade lower MPG for a better running bike IF the thing works.

However, with Beetle having a map available it's a moot point.

[blu guzz]

I used the plug in my 1400 after a few thousand miles of stock. When I got the 1400, I thought the driveability was pretty good. Enzo talked me into trying the plug and so I did.  The driveability was much improved and the fuel mileage did not suffer.  I left it in place until I sold the bike.

[usedtobefast]

So this miracle widget says your bike has bad fuel economy because it is running so lean?  And they will improve this by what, more fuel?  And this results in better fuel economy?

Is this some sort of prank?  Serious question.

So a too lean condition doesn't make the best HP per RPM.  A too rich condition doesn't either.  The "best" or optimum fueling makes the most HP per RPM. 

So say a lean running bike at 4K rpm makes X HP.  Then maybe an optimum fueled bike makes the same X HP but at 3300 RPM instead.  So at 3300 RPMs your engine uses less fuel than running it at 4,000 RPMs.

Or you can easily run 6th gear at certain speed with the optimum set up, but the poor fueling bike will not pull 6th so you ride along in 5th at higher RPMs, getting worse MPG with leaner fueling.

But yes, if you ran a motor on a test bench at 4K RPM with a certain load for 10 minutes, then put in a richer map, and ran the same load test at 4K RPMs, the richer map would use more fuel.  But in the real world, you accelerate, shift, accelerate shift, and the more optimum fueled bike can get better fuel mileage than one that is too lean.

I'm not saying all the boosters or emulators run an optimum air/fuel ratio, but that's the idea of how a richer mixture and provide better MPG.

[Amstaff]

Just joined to comment on this since I had an email exchange with BeetleMaps about a week after the last post. I was told what was indicated above about sending BeetleMaps the map and he revises whatever he sees fit. Not to the state of development where he feels good charging for it, but is confident that improvements are attainable. Problems arise if you try to force open loop regime, like malfunction indicators and blinking flashers. He also indicated that this ties his hands to some extent. And, the 2021 models may preclude this.

Probably like others, I am hesitant to monkey with it vs coughing up $525 for the GTM piggyback tuner. Hopefully this topic will have a thread devoted to it whereas its kind of scattered amongst short threads scratching the surface.

Chime in if theres something here to correct or add.

[Wayne Orwig]

The reason your bike suffers from poor fuel economy and throttle response is emissions mandated lean fueling, also the cause of the extreme heat coming from the exhaust system and very hot running in town, this device SIMPLY plugs inline with the stock oxygen sensor and allows a small reduction in the voltage of the return signal to the ECU, which richens the mixture. This results in improved throttle response, fuel economy (I know this seems contradictory) and smoother running at cruise.

What was that PT Barnum saying? 'There's a sucker born every minute', or something like that.

They imply that the heat from the exhaust is due to it being lean. Yet the cat converter is already hot due to needing to burn off unburned fuel. How is dumping more fuel in there going to make it cooler?

Duh.

And there is the evidence of engine damage due to over rich mixtures from some of these goofy contraptions.

And Beetle is working on some changes. So that would be a NO to this device.

[Amstaff]

I don't pretend to know the answer to that, but Ive read before that richer cools the cat. A google search of “ Does richening cool catalytic converter cool” produces contradictory opinions from people who claim to know. I’m agnostic until I see a scientific answer. This  seems to depend on if there’s oxygen present in the cat to allow the excess fuel to burn.

I’ve also read about these spoofer gadgets confounding the logic in the ECU to produce perverse results. It seems they do little or nothing positive or negative. Engine damage from so much fuel it washes piston skirt oil away? Seems like a stretch.

 Someone needs to be a guinea pig with tuning the V85 and some have stepped up. I guess I’d be one if the money was burning a hole in my pocket to get the Y-Pipe and muffler. Another mystery is why these exhaust parts are so expensive.

[Vagrant]

Sit back and relax. I and several others are testing maps from Beatle on our V85's. It's a slow, tedious process as he is changing tiny steps at a time. I am forced to then go out and ride after every download. Ha, anyway, it won't be too much longer. Most importantly he is doing it right! 

[mondtster]

Just joined to comment on this since I had an email exchange with BeetleMaps about a week after the last post. I was told what was indicated above about sending BeetleMaps the map and he revises whatever he sees fit. Not to the state of development where he feels good charging for it, but is confident that improvements are attainable. Problems arise if you try to force open loop regime, like malfunction indicators and blinking flashers. He also indicated that this ties his hands to some extent. And, the 2021 models may preclude this.

Probably like others, I am hesitant to monkey with it vs coughing up $525 for the GTM piggyback tuner. Hopefully this topic will have a thread devoted to it whereas its kind of scattered amongst short threads scratching the surface.

Chime in if theres something here to correct or add.

Thanks for the input. I never heard back from my request and one of my questions for him was going to be about running in open loop. My preference would be to see the engine run continuously that way, although I know that there are improvements that can be made even if the engine runs in closed loop part of the time.

I suspect that a piggyback tuner will not work satisfactorily on an engine control with closed loop fueling so I've stayed away from pursuing that route, having tried that many times before. Hopefully Beetle will get the bugs ironed out soon and that will be the best avenue to straighten out some of the shortcomings with the factory calibration.

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks for the input. I never heard back from my request and one of my questions for him was going to be about running in open loop. My preference would be to see the engine run continuously that way, although I know that there are improvements that can be made even if the engine runs in closed loop part of the time.

So far, no way to turn off the lambda sensors, we just heard.

[Amstaff]

This may be ignorance, but I’ll throw it out there anyway. I did a fair amount of research  on piggyback tuners, replacement ECUs and remapping of stock ECUs for my ‘21 Husky FE 350. No cat, but it does have a O2 sensor, and the “experts” referred to it as a “tattletale” sensor. Not there for closed loop, but to throw a check engine light on for modifications that alter emissions. The guy in the video said that amongst the options Dynojet’s Power Commander was supposed to have the unique capability to do true closed loop EFI. But, you had to change the O2 sensor to a “fast acting” automotive type and that required welding a larger bunghole to the header. What is my point?

True closed loop to me means that any modification to the intake, exhaust, cams compression, etc would be compensated for by the ECU and produce appropriate injector timing, to make good mixture……

 Does any of this apply here? Do these things actually run in closed loop anyway? I think I read somewhere that they only run closed loop for the emissions, where the ECU can detect the parameters employed for operation the emissions test.

The merchants that sell the GetECU and the Vortex ecu for dirtbikes say for your $750-1000 you get such precise mixture to can feel it through the throttle with each pulse. But Ive been too cheap to find out.

[mondtster]

This may be ignorance, but I’ll throw it out there anyway. I did a fair amount of research  on piggyback tuners, replacement ECUs and remapping of stock ECUs for my ‘21 Husky FE 350. No cat, but it does have a O2 sensor, and the “experts” referred to it as a “tattletale” sensor. Not there for closed loop, but to throw a check engine light on for modifications that alter emissions. The guy in the video said that amongst the options Dynojet’s Power Commander was supposed to have the unique capability to do true closed loop EFI. But, you had to change the O2 sensor to a “fast acting” automotive type and that required welding a larger bunghole to the header. What is my point?

True closed loop to me means that any modification to the intake, exhaust, cams compression, etc would be compensated for by the ECU and produce appropriate injector timing, to make good mixture……

 Does any of this apply here? Do these things actually run in closed loop anyway? I think I read somewhere that they only run closed loop for the emissions, where the ECU can detect the parameters employed for operation the emissions test.

The merchants that sell the GetECU and the Vortex ecu for dirtbikes say for your $750-1000 you get such precise mixture to can feel it through the throttle with each pulse. But Ive been too cheap to find out.

The V85 does run in closed loop under certain conditions. Even with closed loop systems there are often guardrails that will only allow a certain amount of adaptability to alterations before a check engine light will come on, indicating that something is wrong. I am guessing that this is what you're describing on your Husqvarna.

I've been tuning cars and motorcycles for close to 30 years now. Back in the '90s it was common to use piggyback controllers on the EFI applications because that was all there really was to work with for some ECUs. They sort of worked, but not very well, and engine failures weren't uncommon. Things got much better after aftermarket ECUs became affordable and tuning software for factory ECUs started to become available. The Power Commander isn't much different than those old piggyback systems, which work ok on the older open loop motorcycle EFI systems that were essentially one step above carburetors. Trying to run one on something like the V85 would likely provide mediocre results but I wouldn't trust it based on my previous experiences. I'd wait for a tune that can be flashed to the ECU for the best results, which Beetle seems to be working on.

[GuzziOrDeath]

This may be ignorance, but I’ll throw it out there anyway. I did a fair amount of research  on piggyback tuners, replacement ECUs and remapping of stock ECUs for my ‘21 Husky FE 350. No cat, but it does have a O2 sensor, and the “experts” referred to it as a “tattletale” sensor. Not there for closed loop, but to throw a check engine light on for modifications that alter emissions. The guy in the video said that amongst the options Dynojet’s Power Commander was supposed to have the unique capability to do true closed loop EFI. But, you had to change the O2 sensor to a “fast acting” automotive type and that required welding a larger bunghole to the header. What is my point?

You can take those "expert" opinions with a grain of salt. 

True closed loop to me means that any modification to the intake, exhaust, cams compression, etc would be compensated for by the ECU and produce appropriate injector timing, to make good mixture……

Not exactly. See below.

Does any of this apply here? Do these things actually run in closed loop anyway? I think I read somewhere that they only run closed loop for the emissions, where the ECU can detect the parameters employed for operation the emissions test.

Yes. They run in closed loop.
The closed loop system employed by the OEM's is a narrowband system. The target AFR is usually in the range 14.5 - 15.1, to pass Euro standards. This target AFR is the same regardless of whatever exhaust is installed, or any other modifications you make. That is why installing a free flowing exhaust does not improve anything without remapping. The ECU just keeps trimming to meet the target.

The Marelli/Guzzi closed loop system operates usually in the sub ~4000 RPM range, when the engine temperature is above 55 degrees C, and the intake air temperature is above ~17 degrees C. Above 4000, it's open loop.

As it seems the V85 software is now tamper proof, deactivating lambda and running an open loop map seems unlikely.

With regard to the Power Commander, it is hardly unique in the fact the AutoTune wideband module allows it run in closed loop mode. With a 3rd party wideband sensor and controller, programmed to emulate a narrowband signal, some ECU's can be made to operate in a functional wideband closed loop mode. I've done it with the 5AM ECU. Can it be done with the 7SM? No idea. It's a completely different animal.

[Amstaff]

Yes, interesting to read this. Thanks for the response.

A Google search also produces some interesting results. Seems the Aprilia community has a headstart on tuning the 7SM. Also, a site called Old Skull Tuning claims to offer maps for the v85TT. Googling the phone gives language hints indicating location in Germanic countries.

Google”Marelli 7SM ECU.”