A “Water Cooled” Guzzi. Does it matter to you?

[Moto Vita]

 If I'm going to buy a liquid cooled bike I'll buy it from one of the dealers here in town instead of traveling 300 miles to the nearest Guzzi dealer.

[blackcat]

Really
Sorry Dusty, I'll try not to be so honest 

Just out of curiosity, which Guzzi do you own and when was the last new Guzzi you bought from a dealer?

[TN Mark]

Over the years I've had air only, air/oil and water cooling. It's never been an active thought in deciding to purchase, ride or enjoy. Though with Moto Guzzi, I'd very likely give them a few years to work the bugs out of any water cooling system they's release. The reason being their lack of experience in anything but air and air/oil cooling.

[bad Chad]

Over the years I've had air only, air/oil and water cooling. It's never been an active thought in deciding to purchase, ride or enjoy. Though with Moto Guzzi, I'd very likely give them a few years to work the bugs out of any water cooling system they's release. The reason being their lack of experience in anything but air and air/oil cooling.

I don’t think you would need to be hesitant Mark,  I believe Guzzi has much experience with liquid cooling, but I could be wrong.   Certainly Piaggio, much like Polaris, had extensive experience with modern liquid cooling, hopefully they could help Guzzi get it right.

[rschrum]

Plus 1 ^   
Now we can start thinking about a 140hp Lemans VI

I say 160, do I hear 170?

[flip]

If I can get 110 reliable HP out of a 1000 instead of a measley 65, hell yes.

Well said!

[TN Mark]

I don’t think you would need to be hesitant Mark,  I believe Guzzi has much experience with liquid cooling, but I could be wrong.   Certainly Piaggio, much like Polaris, had extensive experience with modern liquid cooling, hopefully they could help Guzzi get it right.

Yes, you're correct Chad. I forgot about Aprilia and other Piaggio divisions.

[Sye]

All air cooled engines are on their way out. BMW had to water cool the boxer twin too. Result, 30% more power, increased reliability and they are flying out of the showrooms.

A water cooled Guzzi would be great. Still a 90 degree transverse twin with shaft drive but quieter, more efficient and more powerful. If they get it right, they will be able to compete on the world stage again!

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

If I can get 110 reliable HP out of a 1000 instead of a measley 65, hell yes.

Close the phone lines, we have a winner!

[Murray]

Think if it's hybrid.

Don't see the point of half arseing it if you are going water cooling do it, or are you talking a petrol/electric hybrid?

[Dogwalker]

Don't see the point of half arseing it if you are going water cooling do it, or are you talking a petrol/electric hybrid?

Petrol/electric.
Piaggio already made the MP3 Hybrid in 2010.

[centauro]

tighter emission  water cooling is the best way to control it wh
y do you thing all the reliable as hell engines went away 4.0 jeep ,7.3 ford diesel , 350 chevy, slant six, emissions is the main reason liquid cooling is around the corner for all motorcycles just before electric comes around

Exactly. You may have noticed that your air cooled Guzzi, (if you still have one) takes a while on a cold morning to reach its ideal temperature, which means that, even with fuel injection, it will run richer than it needs to, which, of course, means worse emissions and less than optimal gas mileage. And once it is fully warmed up, if the temp is too high, the motor will put out a different mix of pollutants that includes nitrogen oxides. This assumes that the engine is tuned up to optimal performance.

Also, realize that Guzzi has to sell bikes in Europe and other parts of the world as well, where emission levels are even more stringent than ours. Engine noise is also another reason to move to water cooling, and overseas they are more strict than us.

I am a fan of air cooled bikes, and have never owned a liquid cooled one, but I agree, liquid cooling will happen before the industry transitions to electric only propulsion.


 

[Kev m]

WTH, I'll add my voice to the chorus.

Would I consider one - SURE. I'll consider just about anything.

Generally speaking I prefer Air Cooled bikes because I enjoy the relatively simplicity and don't need the extra ponies.

But Guzzi could wooo me to own another water-cooled bike if the result is attractive, not maintenance intensive, and most importantly they give me things that they refuse to on the other air-cooled models that I like (V7/V9) - i.e. dual discs, USD forks, mono-shock/SSSA all with the good looks and riding ergos of the V7/V9.

And even if this model ISN'T for me I'm glad they'll build it for others. The current lineup is too limiting for many riders. More appeal = better future success.

On the hybrid thing/cooling fins. Why not. My understanding is that some of the OEMs that have done that have designed it so the motor will keep going on air-cooling only if needed. So bust a hose, lose a water pump, have a thermostat stick shut and you can still get home. Sounds great to me. I also like the looks.... so there's that too.

[s1120]

Ive had mostly air cooled bikes. I do like the simplistically of them, and also the looks. I really dont care for the looks of a modern water cooled motorcycle engine. Not a big deal in something like a sport bike, or a touring bike, where its all covered anyways, but on a open naked bike, I like the look of the aircooled engines. There really is zero doubt that the water cooled is better. Controlling the temp of the engine allows better tuning giving improved efficiency performance, and life span. As another upside, the makers can put better sounding pipes/mufflers on the bike, that meet standards, but still have some rumble when you loose some of the engine ringing from the fins, and open jugs. So ya..  I would buy a water cooled Guzzi. But only if they got the look of the engine right, and keep the Guzzi feel.

[blu guzz]

some years ago Harley ( I think) was able to lower the amount of valve clatter and other noises which allowed them to open up the exhaust slightly for a little more tone.  presumably, if water cooling quiets down other engine noises, perhaps the exhaust on MG's could be a little more present as well from the factory that is. 

[Vagrant]

I must be the oddball here.
I'm a lot more concerned about the side exhaust pipes than water cooling. Burnt human body partss, breaking cylinder heads off in a mild tipover...

[AH Fan]

And as far as the government concerned about the emission of the relatively few large displacement motorcycles,
look at all those jets flying by, the factories, the trucks, coal-fired power plants, and deforestation.
Concerned government? Yeah, that, why cigarettes are still being sold. Over $5 per pack in taxes.
The cancer comes as a bonus.

Ya come to think of it you just might be right.   

[Dirk_S]

Ya come to think of it you just might be right.   

Or perhaps it’s government using a step of limitation rather than or before going full cancellation, while also allowing gains to be procured while A is still utilized.

Like “there are reasons why you shouldn’t be using THIS, but for whatever reasons that may be, we cannot or will not prohibit you yet, so in the meantime, we will make it a little more harder (or add incentive to move toward THAT), and get something positive out of A while you continue to use it.”

[egschade]

Just make the engine look better than a CX500. Look to Triumph twins for how to make a water cooled engine look good - esp. the radiator.

[Dogwalker]

Just make the engine look better than a CX500. Look to Triumph twins for how to make a water cooled engine look good - esp. the radiator.

I prefer the look of the CX500.
The CX500 is the example I always make to argue that a liquid cooled engine can be nice to see and that's better for liquid cooled cylinder to not have fake fins.
Unfortunately OHC or DOHC cylinders can't be so "cylindrical". The heads must be squared.

[Moparnut72]

The big blocks are going away because they can't meet Euro 5. I kind of wonder why. The  new BMW R 18 is air/oil cooled and meets the standards all be it with a low amount of horsepower for the size of the motor. So with the big blocks, air and oil cooled, is it actually because of the emissions that can't be met or awful clatter coming from the valve train?

As to the question as to whether I would own a water cooled bike or not? One reason for no is the ease of maintenance on an air cooled bike. Yes for water cooled for all the reasons already posted. And the current long lived anti-freeze coolants is another plus.
kk

[Luap McKeever]

A few years ago when I was stuck in stop and go traffic in Phoenix for over 30 minutes, outside temperature was 112 and the MGX I had was so hot I could fry an egg off the valve cover, I was sure wishing for water cooling.

This Indian Challenger that I have, the fan comes on around 205 degrees and it cools back down to 180 degrees in about 30 seconds, sitting still on a 90+ degree sunny Ozark day. Yes, water cooling is good. It's important to me and it should be important to anyone competing in the motorcycle manufacturing world today. "Adapt or die" comes to mind.

But, I still LOVE my two air cooled Tontis.

My $.02

[Kev m]

The big blocks are going away because they can't meet Euro 5. I kind of wonder why. The  new BMW R 18 is air/oil cooled and meets the standards all be it with a low amount of horsepower for the size of the motor. So with the big blocks, air and oil cooled, is it actually because of the emissions that can't be met or awful clatter coming from the valve train?

I was always told that combustion chamber volume and hp were part of the emissions puzzle.

That without water-cooling OEMs needed to go to larger and larger cubic capacities to increase hp but to meet tightening emissions standards they could not increase hp nearly as much as with water-cooled motors. But that the volume and lower hp numbers made it possible for them to meet the standards.

As such the problem with the Guzzi big blocks seems likely that they couldn't increase the volume sufficiently to make the necessary power and meet tighter emissions, while motors like the Harley M8 and the BMW R18 (or even the R9T with the obviously lower output from the R1200/1250 models) still can. Though I do have to wonder if the days of the R9T are numbered.

[Moparnut72]

You right. I have read that also. I was surprised how low the horsepower rating is for the R18 with such a large engine.  My 1400 makes more with lower displacement and Guzzis aren't powerhouses compared to other brands.
kk

[AJ Huff]

It seems that the trend here is, those who wrench on their own bikes are opposed to indifferent to a water cooled Guzzi. And those that do not wrench on their own bikes are indifferent to in favor of a water cooled Guzzi. Simplicity and ease of working on seems to be the number one reason people are saying they prefer air cooled bikes.

-AJ

[Dirk_S]

It seems that the trend here is, those who wrench on their own bikes are opposed to indifferent to a water cooled Guzzi. And those that do not wrench on their own bikes are indifferent to in favor of a water cooled Guzzi. Simplicity and ease of working on seems to be the number one reason people are saying they prefer air cooled bikes.

-AJ

Curious how you extracted the data on those who wrench and those who don’t. Was that something I forgot to put in my profile signature?

[AJ Huff]

Curious how you extracted the data on those who wrench and those who don’t. Was that something I forgot to put in my profile signature?

It's an educated guess based on comments made on this thread, the Sportster S thread, and the spy photo thread, and years of people posting. Oh course I could be wrong.

-AJ

[ozarquebus]

If an aircooled Guzzi was significantly lighter than a new watercooled Guzzi, maybe not.
If aircooled meant 500 lb 1000cc bike vs a 650 lb water-cooled bike, then NO.

BUT...

Modern designs seem to add water-cooling without much weight gain and my watercooled bikes have been dead nuts reliable in the cooling department.

The water-cooled bike might be harder to restore or keep running when long in tooth in the long term...but who cares about long term, anymore?

Guzzi is not as steadfastly routed with air cooling as a necessity of its intrinsic design aesthetic as is HD, therefore to me its just a matter of performance rather than faithfulness to original design. The transverse engine configuration is more congruent to a transverse radiator in front, anyway.

Owing to that, if they do it right, the radiator could be very unobtrusive and almost inconspicuous if it was shaped properly and integrated into the engine/frame shape on a transverse V.

[twowings]

I absolutely LOVED my '60 VW Beetle with the bulletproof 36HP engine that would run on practically anything combustible.  Easy to work on, easy on the pocketbook, and a hit with the ladies BUT:

Volkswagen saw the writing on the wall in the '70's regarding meeting evolving emission/fuel mileage/crash standards and realized that even though they sold a galactic buttload of the things and the air-cooled engine was a HUGE selling point they would be unable to meet those standards with that design without overcoming HUGE engineering roadblocks so they killed the air-cooled design and the Rabbit/Golf was born.

You can imagine if VW with wads of R&D cash to burn on testing and certification couldn't make the numbers work, then what's a small boutique manufacturer like Moto Guzzi going to do?

The world moves on and perhaps our great-grandchildren will be the true winners.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I absolutely LOVED my '60 VW Beetle with the bulletproof 36HP engine that would run on practically anything combustible.  Easy to work on, easy on the pocketbook, and a hit with the ladies BUT:

Volkswagen saw the writing on the wall in the '70's regarding meeting evolving emission/fuel mileage/crash standards and realized that even though they sold a galactic buttload of the things and the air-cooled engine was a HUGE selling point they would be unable to meet those standards with that design without overcoming HUGE engineering roadblocks so they killed the air-cooled design and the Rabbit/Golf was born.

It was a bit later than the '70s when VW "killed" the original air-cooled engine. It just wasn't for sale in most of the world.

"By 2002, over 21 million Type 1s had been produced, but by 2003, annual production had dropped to 30,000 from a peak of 1.3 million in 1971. VW announced the end of production in June 2003, citing decreasing demand, and the final original Type 1 VW Beetle (No. 21,529,464) rolled off the production line at Puebla, Mexico, on 30 July 2003, 65 years after its original launch."

And then there is Porsche (sold in all markets):
"Air-cooling reigned supreme up until the introduction of the Porsche 911 996 in 1998. This makes the Porsche 911 993, produced from 1994-1998, one of the most sought-after models around. It's the very last of the air-cooled 911s."