Man/bike down, soliciting safety ideas

[Huzo]

Unless I missed it, I didn't read anyone here as saying it might not have happened to us.

Yep.
Nothing I said was as a criticism.
If it was me, let me know.

[twowheeladdict]

I mounted tip over bars for the sole purpose of having a place to mount LED running lights.  I also mounted SkeneDesign Run/Brake LEDs on either side of the license plate for the tailgaters. 







https://www.skenelights.com/

[John A]

Back in a previous life I read some stuff on the topic of information lock, it’s when your brain refuses to take on any more input, regardless of how important it may be.

Point is..
In the situation our car driver was in, you don’t have to do ONE thing wrong to have an accident...
You have to do EVERYTHING right, not to.....
There’s a big difference..

That information lock is something I’ve noticed in myself, more than I would like. When I’m tired and not feeling the best if I get a touch of hypothermia I’m susceptible to shutting down information intake. So far it’s not noticeable to others unless that’s part of the information I’m not processing….

[Moparnut72]

Moparnut, I think this is it:

https://www.portsmouthctc.org.uk/a-fighter-pilots-guide-to-surviving-on-the-roads/

Definitely worth a read.

                                                              -Stretch

That's it, thanks. Every bike rider should read this. Eye opening.
kk

[Ryan]

If I approach an intersection as you have described, I try to make eye contact with any driver. If they are not looking at me, a quick couple of horn honks (short, quick, not obnoxious) usually gets a head to turn. I ride on whichever side of the road I perceive the threats to come from because I think it gets more attention and it gives me more room to work if needed. I constantly plan my escape routes so I can react without thinking. I also have a white helmet and wear a high-viz endowed jacket. Stack the deck as far in my favor as I can, and deal with it when it comes. And as others have mentioned, learn how far you can push your bike. Most people really don't practice braking or swerving at the limit, and have no idea how far they can go, causing them to bail out on avoidance when there was still enough time to complete the save.

[Huzo]

That information lock is something I’ve noticed in myself, more than I would like. When I’m tired and not feeling the best if I get a touch of hypothermia I’m susceptible to shutting down information intake. So far it’s not noticeable to others unless that’s part of the information I’m not processing….

An astute piece of self observation....
I’m an absolute bugger for reading a sentence and anticipating the second half, I think it’s getting worse.

[stubbie]

I think the problem with some drivers is that they don't look in the 0-5 meter range they are looking further down the road for a vehicle coming at speed. A friend of mine was riding his pushbike to work, he was just about crossing a t junction as a car approached from his left. The car came through the intersection turning left and hit his front wheel throwing him from the bike. First thing the woman driver said was "Sorry I didn't see you I was looking down the road to my right". Luckily he wasn't hurt.

[tris]

I've had some time to kill recently and wasted some if it on YouTube watching biker  v car v idiot driver v etc. etc.

It stuck me just how many riders in the event of danger pull the clutch in and bounce the engine off the rev limiter no doubt following the "loud pipes save lives" philosophy

This is often followed by their running into what got their attention in the first place - often at low speed

It seems to suggest that applying the brakes first is a very good plan

Tris

PS I hope you get fit and well again soon

[John A]

I've had some time to kill recently and wasted some if it on YouTube watching biker  v car v idiot driver v etc. etc.

It stuck me just how many riders in the event of danger pull the clutch in and bounce the engine off the rev limiter no doubt following the "loud pipes save lives" philosophy

This is often followed by their running into what got their attention in the first place - often at low speed

It seems to suggest that applying the brakes first is a very good plan

Tris






That is an embarrassing display of an emotional response to an adrenal dump into the body after a stressor. It tells me the person doing it is unfamiliar with their bodies adrenal system doing what it’s supposed to. It’s a sign that the person usually responds to a threat with their monkey brain, not with their lizard brain. It’s also a sign that indicates that person may not be reliable in a sudden life or death situation because it takes some work to be able to deal with an adrenal dump after the immediate threat has passed. It can be a dangerous time for them because their brain is processing things differently until the adrenaline is reabsorbed.

[Sye]

Increasing your visibility front and back is a good idea but is difficult to achieve in practice. Reflective jackets work well but the colour choice is important. Lots of road and construction workers wear them and as a result people sub consciously ignore them. If the workers wear orange, go for a different colour. If yellow the same applies. You want to stand out, not blend in.

Pink or red would be great but a long metal spike in the middle of every car steering wheel would work better.

[wavedog]

  Hey here is a revolutionary idea- how about some real driver training? The root of the problem is the drivers not paying attention. The cultural complacency of driving. All the hi-viz and loud horns ain't gonna protect you against an idiot car driver. Case in point (and you all have similar stories) - three of us following my friend who was riding a bright yellow goldwing, wearing very hi-viz helmet, jacket, gloves etc comes within inches of getting nailed by a guy pulling out of a parking lot. We all had to stop pronto cause this car driver swerved and almost got the rest of us. You know what he said ? " I didn't SEE you" I yelled back "Don't drive if you are blind" expletive expletive expletive.

 People grow up in automobiles. They do not understand the danger and responsibility of vehicle operation. Complacency.

Another factor is brain function. The primitive part of our brain sees and evaluates threats on a rapid subconscious level. Out in the wild threats, predators, animals, are horizontal. Non threats, trees etc are vertical. Horizontal-threat. Vertical-no threat.  So when a dull of mind motorist sees an oncoming motorcycle it just doesn't register as it is vertical- no threat, pull out and boom.

We as motorcyclists see cars as horizontal objects and treat them as a very real threat, justifiably so as every driver is a potential danger.

 I know what you are thinking- There is a word for people who think everyone is out to get them. Yeah- Perceptive!

[tris]

....... and to follow on I guess that 95% of people pass their test and are NEVER retested to see if they have developed any bad habits

I had a 20 year gap between my car test and later doing the bike test

I drive the car now with shoulder checks that i didn't do so much before

[SemperVee]

   Wiggle headlight and Hi Viz to gain attention -  and no one has mentioned....  Learn to use your brakes!     "Laying it down"  is HAVING an accident to avoid an accident mentality.  12 years a MSF instructor.  No one practices hard braking enough, including me and I won't ever own a bike without ABS!  ABS saved my bacon the first week I got my New Victory CCT when Bambi jumped out in front of me on a country road just after sunset! 

[sidecarnutz]

Dang it Huzo! I spit my coffee out with that one.

Skippy

LOL ROTFL!

[Anomaly]

OK, I see that some clarifications are in order (some details I left out of my original post because I really just wanted to focus on the visibility issue....). To clarify: I wear a totally white helmet. Immediately after the accident, when I asked the other driver why he had pulled out in front of me, he did NOT say it was because I had slowed slightly upon entering the intersection. He said...wait for it... "I didn't see you." (he has since changed his story to the insurance company...). As for my statement that I put the bike down, I see now that that is loaded phrasing for some of you-- I should have said I went down on/with the bike. Apparently, there is a "strategy" of willingly going down on the bike. I don't buy that strategy. Rather, I was braking hard. HARD, and trying to steer slightly to the left to the narrow gap between the truck and the oncoming traffic in the opposing lane. Traffic I might add that was going 45 mph (speeding is a civic duty for some drivers in RI). If you want to critique something, critique my braking-- I'm leery of using too much front brake (seen people launch themselves over their handlebars...)-- I was using the front brake to be sure, but really cranking on the rear brake and heard/felt the rear wheel lock up just before I went down. I still thing that that outcome (as painful as it is proving to be for me/my body) was better than hitting the truck which would have caused more damage to me and much more to the bike.

As for some of the other comments-- no, I have never heard of using the clutch to rev the engine to create a loud noise. This sounds like a stupid idea, I doubt one could really do it anyway in the milliseconds involved in a situation like I was in, AND it misses the point of what I hope to focus on with this thread: making noise, by any means, as a crash is imminent is unlikely to change the outcome. Getting the attention of a dopey cager well before such at situation develops is what I wanted to focus on. And, as was pointed out, even this is not a sure thing as yes, some people hit fire trucks and the like with full lights and sirens going and say "I didn't see you."

So, thanks again for the responses focused on the visibility theme. That point about people becoming inured to bright safety colors because of exposure to roadside workers costumes is one I hadn't thought of. Meanwhile, talking with the folks at Twisted Throttle and also looking hard at the lineup from Skenes (thanks for that link).

[coast range rider]

If that last post doesn't make you think hard about riding a bike with ABS, then you may just learn the hard way.

[MMRanch]

Wait a minute ???

  Pickup truck on my right sitting stopped at his red light. As I entered the intersection, he pulls out to make a right turn. 10 feet between us,   

So truck is on the right , you pass on the left , the truck turns right , where's the problem ?

https://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-12-volt-electric-horn-set-99911.html?_br_psugg_q=car+horn

These are really loud and come with a relay you can run off the Battery  ! 

I ride with my head light on dim so I can use the "Passing Flash" to get attention when I need it .   It works good
................... ..................

I wasn't there so I don't mean to question a quick desission but :   I always understood that bikes stop faster if they stay on their wheels ? 

[John A]

I think Tris was lamenting the fact that some riders engage in the foolish ’rev bombing’ and was not advocating it.

[Anomaly]

Wait a minute ???

  Pickup truck on my right sitting stopped at his red light. As I entered the intersection, he pulls out to make a right turn. 10 feet between us,   

So truck is on the right , you pass on the left , the truck turns right , where's the problem ?

He was ENTERING the intersection from the right (the street at right angles to the one I was on, I had the green light, he had the red light). It was a two lane road, "on the left", of me, was oncoming traffic...
 
Does that clarify the problem?

[Anomaly]

I think Tris was lamenting the fact that some riders engage in the foolish ’rev bombing’ and was not advocating it.

Understood. I was agreeing it was foolish. And non-productive in the situation under discussion. But, again, what I hoped to discuss was the visibility issue...

[MMRanch]

Yes ,

You know any of us could get in that same situation on any ride .    I'm glad you brought it up.   

Funny in a way , but we never know for sure what we'll do when a panic situation pops up ?

 Heck , I just use the front brake for all my stopping needs and leave the rear brake only for parking lot manovers , the rear is in charge of pushing and wears out fast enough as it is.   The added benfit of stopping with the front brake only  is that I'm really well acquainted with it and its also turns into "the natural first line of defense" .

[MMRanch]

Here is a story for ya ! 

So , when I got my V-7II home and unloaded I naturally took it out for a little ride-a-bout.   Well I kept thinking about that nice BIG FRONT DISK ... and how powerful it must be .   The road was dry so I got a mind to do a "STOPPIE" ! 

It didn't end like I thought it would .   

From about 35mph the rear came off the ground and then in a mili-second  - the front brake turned loose !  Then in another mili-second it grabbed again and I was stopped !  Well that was that !
 I think it stopped in about 12 feet .   

[tris]

I think Tris was lamenting the fact that some riders engage in the foolish ’rev bombing’ and was not advocating it.

Thanks John that's exactly my position

I see DLR/head lights, high vis gear and moving the bike in the lane as the first line of defence against the cagers but don't expect it to be especially effective

The second line is ME doing my best to avoid them and not put myself where they can get me - but I'm fallible

You can only try and stack the cards in your favour and hope if it goes wrong it's not too bad an incident

[Kev m]

- I was using the front brake to be sure, but really cranking on the rear brake and heard/felt the rear wheel lock up just before I went down. I still thing that that outcome (as painful as it is proving to be for me/my body) was better than hitting the truck which would have caused more damage to me and much more to the bike.

Physics suggests you were wrong about this.

But like I said, it could happen to any of us, esoterically if we make the same mistake.

[Old Jock]

From about 35mph the rear came off the ground and then in a mili-second  - the front brake turned loose !  Then in another mili-second it grabbed again and I was stopped !  Well that was that !
 I think it stopped in about 12 feet .   

Does that model have ABS?

It sounds like that could have come into play, or the front wheel lost traction for a millisecond.

As we all know the front brake providing it's squeezed progressively can cope with incredible braking force before losing traction if the conditions are right, if they're not then a low side is the usual outcome and the bike slides from under you.

It seemed totally counterintuitive to me at first and God knows how many times I've lost the rear stomping too hard on it, but now I hardly use it.

On my Ducati it was next to useless anyway.

Glad everything was Ok, I'd never give anybody riding tips, I'm just good enough to be dangerous

[Kev m]

Does that model have ABS?

It sounds like that could have come into play, or the front wheel lost traction for a millisecond.

As we all know the front brake providing it's squeezed progressively can cope with incredible braking force before losing traction if the conditions are right, if they're not then a low side is the usual outcome and the bike slides from under you.

Yes, a V7-II is the first V7 to have ABS.

Uhh, and wouldn't a front lock = a highside? Like over the bars? (I know that's how I did the superman slide down the street in the rain a long LONG time ago on a Honda VT500 Ascot).

[tris]

I guess that would depend if it
a) wheel locked and gripped - over the bars
b) wheel locked and slipped - low side

I'm not sure I have the band width to compute the difference in the time frame as either way I'd likely be coming off 

[Old Jock]

Not AFAIK, just anectodal and only happened a couple of times to me at close to walking speed, but when the front has slid away the bike immediatley went down and quick, taking me with it.

Don't doubt you for a second Kev its just I've never highsided from a loss of the front, I didn't even think that was possible (idiots trying extreme stoppies excepted).

Highsides (purely a priory knowledge) is getting greedy or sudden with the throttle usually in a bend, the rear breaks traction, rider comes off the throttle and traction is restablished. The unloading and subsequent shock loading of the rear shock results in a slingshot punting the rider over the front of the bike

Like I said I'm not even competent let alone knowlegable

Tris beat me to it

[Kev m]

I guess that would depend if it
a) wheel locked and gripped - over the bars
b) wheel locked and slipped - low side

I'm not sure I have the band width to compute the difference in the time frame as either way I'd likely be coming off 

Good point.

I guess I always assumed you go over the bars (from my N = 1 experience) but I guess it depends on that and also if there was any lean prior too I would think. Maybe weight bias and terrain (uphill, downhill, flat) could play a part. Life is complicated.

Not AFAIK, just anectodal and only happened a couple of times to me at close to walking speed, but when the front has slid away the bike immediatley went down and quick, taking me with it.

Don't doubt you for a second Kev its just I've never highsided from a loss of the front, I didn't even think that was possible (idiots trying extreme stoppies excepted).

Highsides (purely a priory knowledge) is getting greedy or sudden with the throttle usually in a bend, the rear breaks traction, rider comes off the throttle and traction is restablished. The unloading and subsequent shock loading of the rear shock results in a slingshot punting the rider over the front of the bike

Like I said I'm not even competent let alone knowlegable

Tris beat me to it

 

I think Mongo (me) was making ASSumptions again... 

[MMRanch]

NO , NO , NO Guys !

That "Over the Handlebars thing is a myth" ,  Unless you hit something ! 

The V-7II is the first bike I'd had with ABS .   

Here's another TRUE story for ya :   
So , me and my buddies Dave and Stew are running Blood Mountain in North Ga. and going down the SOUTH side I came out of a right hand twist WAY-TOO-FAST and a left twist was comming up WAY-TOO-SOON .  They weren't even keeping up (to smart I guess).

I sort of panicked and grabbed a handful of front brake that resulted in losing 10 mph in seemly 10 feet.   That next left hand twist still came up before I was set up for it - but - the big danger was over.

Later that evening at camp I was cleaning the bike and noticed a (.75" x .125") rip going side to side on the front tire then a newish Sport Demon tire.   In my mind I'm sure where it came from but I'd never be able to prove it ... and there's no need to either.

My point is : No over the handlebars unless you connect with something major.    I've hit dogs that weigh up to 40# from 50-ish mph and there is always a jolt and the handlebars try to come out of your hands but "Bump-Bump" and its over.