Final drive level plug threads leaking. Repair...?

[radguzzi]

So I winterized a couple of motorcycles a week or so back and the Hack received oil, filter, trans and final drive fluids...   As I put the level plug back into the final drive I could "feel" that uneasy hint of a weak thread happening, I proceeded gingerly snugging the plug against the crush washer.

Low and behold, that plug is indeed leaking, just a bit of a weep really.
Before I take it down to check whether the threads are actually compromised I need to know whether that thread is repairable.   This unit is a late model 7/33 on the '99 EV.

1/  Is there enough room for a Helicoil...? 

2/  Does the entire case need to be emptied to do this type of repair...?

I may just swap out the unit with the original '99EV 8/33 while I investigate the issue.

Thanks for any insight here.
Rob 

[Chuck in Indiana]

(1) my guess is it will require an insert of some kind rather than a helicoil. That case is pretty thin.
(2) yes

[lucian]

I would try Loctite 545 thread sealant , As long as the threads still have a little bite you'll be good to go. They do make Heli coils for shallow threads  as well' Maybe get a crush washer with the rubber center along with the Loctite.  Good luck !

Found this , never used it but could be worth a try
 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lct-28654?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAiA7dKMBhBCEiwAO_crFEo0PfUsWu6ksT4FS7sIBGTyMfb_pYcfabukreyPAKtoIwkz8JVorBoCT_oQAvD_BwE

[John A]

Sometimes a longer plug works and then you can fix it at your leisure.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I never use the level plug on big-blocks as they're rarely accurate - drain, measure the correct amount and fill. Try the longer plug as John A suggests and if not already using "dowty washers"/"stat-o-seal" type washers as lucian suggests, then you might consider it. Less torque to seal and reusable. I get mine from McMaster-Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/93786A175

[henwilv]

So I winterized a couple of motorcycles a week or so back and the Hack received oil, filter, trans and final drive fluids...   As I put the level plug back into the final drive I could "feel" that uneasy hint of a weak thread happening, I proceeded gingerly snugging the plug against the crush washer.

Low and behold, that plug is indeed leaking, just a bit of a weep really.
Before I take it down to check whether the threads are actually compromised I need to know whether that thread is repairable.   This unit is a late model 7/33 on the '99 EV.

1/  Is there enough room for a Helicoil...?

2/  Does the entire case need to be emptied to do this type of repair...?

I may just swap out the unit with the original '99EV 8/33 while I investigate the issue.

Thanks for any insight here.
Rob

You can try plumber's PTFE tape (3M makes it, amongst others) and if it doesn't leak, never remove it and refill by measuring the correct quantity. That diff never gets as hot as the hot water in your pipes.

[Moparnut72]

I know that NAPA sells oversize drainplugs for autos for situations like this. Maybe one would fit for this application. They would probably need to be special ordered.  You would need to know tread size and pitch. You would also need a savvy counterman.
kk

[jhem68]

I'll submit that if you don't value using the level plug as an accurate check on the oil level, then simply remove the  plug clean the plug threads and case. JB Weld the plug into place and from here on in use the drain and measure upon changing oil as Charlie has rightly suggested. Easiest and most pragmatic solution IF you can live with the "cobble" nature of the repair.

None of the newer Guzzi's bother with the level plug.

[guzzisteve]

I got a few to do for a customer also change all seals on restoration. Just got a timesert kit.

[huub]

a heli coil works fine ,
 i did quite a few

[Rolf Halvorsen]

1 - yes
2 - yes - in a fixture

Helicoil - yes

[mtiberio]

glue/epoxy level plug in place and never use again. Drain, fill w/250cc, check via zip tie inserted from fill plug hole. Send tie toward rear and down. Not hard to tell if you have enuf oil. Never touch the drain unless absolutely necessary. My rear drives come off often enough, I either drain through the fill hole or out the pinion cavity.

[Stevex]

Those washers with the rubber seal inserts are called Dowty washers over here (UK).
I'm replacing bevel and gearbox oils this winter and am going to syphon out the old oil with a large syringe and thin bleed tube and then use a homemade dipstick to check levels, which I've being doing for the last year or so with good results. Save's ever having to disturb those threads.

[larrys]

My Cal has the same issue. Weeps just enough to make a mess. The PO must have been a gorilla. Every bolt and nut he touched was way overtightened. Great suggestions here. I will opt for the JB weld fix.
Larry

[Wayne Orwig]

Clean it up. Put sealant on it. Screw it in. Never remove it again.

The level plug is sort of bogus. Drain it from the bottom plug and fill it with a measured amount. The end.

I once helicoiled a bottom drain plug and it worked out well. And since it is NOT a pipe thread, teflon tape is of course the wrong thing to do.

[huub]

I know guzzi riders are cheap, but glue a level plug in place? seriously?
A M10 heli coils kit cost 10 euro, and is a nice tool to have anyway.
the tube of jb weld is probably more expensive.
i am always amazed at the bodges i find on used bikes.
fortunately never found level plugs glued in ..yet

[mtiberio]

I know guzzi riders are cheap, but glue a level plug in place? seriously?
A M10 heli coils cost 10 euro, and is a nice tool to ave anyway.
the tube of jb weld is probably more expesive.
i am always amazed at the bodges i find on used bikes.
fortunately never found level plugs glued in ..yet

Helicoil is a boge. Pick your posion.

[radguzzi]

All good guys, thanks.

I hate to defer maintenance however, due to the late date and more cycles to put up for Winter, I have prepared the Hack to be put away without changing the final drive plug.

I took a few minutes to pull the level plug out and the threads re indeed totaled, thread tape did nada to firm up the grip.  In the Spring I will entertain doing the plug it and leave it method whether with epoxy or some other means. 
If I have the time prior to completely storing the rig I May swap the final drive before closing the doors on the season, hope to find time for that.

With that unit off I can decide what to do with it.   Fortunate that I have that spare (original) final drive.

I appreciate the input folks.  And just to mention it, I am not ham-fisted at all so this pulled thread has me scratchin' me head.   Hard steel pug against an aluminum case though...
Again lucky to have a way out of a dilemma.

Thanks,
rad__

[Chuck in Indiana]

And just to mention it, I am not ham-fisted at all so this pulled thread has me scratchin' me head. 

  This isn't an unheard of issue.. you are definitely not the first.

[John A]

This isn't an unheard of issue.. you are definitely not the first.

I think he should be designated first as a ceremonial title.

[Matteo]

Attsa good thread! 

[Tom H]

I would try a longer bolt. I had the same problem. Guzzi uses a rather short bolt. I had one about 5mm longer and it holds just fine. Just don't go too long.

Tom

[radguzzi]

Attsa good thread! 

I see what you did there...     This however, is not...    You can see that the steel bolt had been spinning the threads right out of the hole.



I could not leave the Hack alone.   The Winterizing had been done, the Hack was stored in it's trailer for the Winter but I pulled it back out this morning and swapped the final drive out for the original 8/33.  Put in the 250cc of new gear oil Never touching the level plug and put the Hack back in the trailer.

The temptation to go for a test ride was great but I resisted, fuel stabilized, oil changed and all that.  It will keep until Spring.

I would try a longer bolt. I had the same problem. Guzzi uses a rather short bolt. I had one about 5mm longer and it holds just fine. Just don't go too long.

Tom

Just for grins I did this, cut off a 10mm bolt at about that same length and the thread engaged with what is remaining for threads in the hole, which ain't much.  Nice tight fit. 
That will be a candidate to either Helicoil repair or epoxy that bad Larry into place.

Another thing about this unit is that I cannot seem to pull the pinion assembly out.  I want to check on the actual gearing, I bought it years ago as a 7/33 but I really do not know what the gearing is.  I have the flange soaking in Aero Kroil and I'll try again in the AM.

The 8/33s that I have here, this one and the one on the '04 EVT are stamped right on the case.  Not so with this (hopefully) 7/33.

Thanks all,
Rob



Oh, thanks...    I am a relative new-comer.   

I think he should be designated first as a ceremonial title.

[henwilv]

Clean it up. Put sealant on it. Screw it in. Never remove it again.

The level plug is sort of bogus. Drain it from the bottom plug and fill it with a measured amount. The end.

I once helicoiled a bottom drain plug and it worked out well. And since it is NOT a pipe thread, teflon tape is of course the wrong thing to do.

Please note, we are talking about a bodge job here so NOTHING/EVERYTHING is the wrong thing to do

[henwilv]

I know guzzi riders are cheap, but glue a level plug in place? seriously?
A M10 heli coils kit cost 10 euro, and is a nice tool to have anyway.
the tube of jb weld is probably more expensive.
i am always amazed at the bodges i find on used bikes.
fortunately never found level plugs glued in ..yet

 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I know guzzi riders are cheap, but glue a level plug in place? seriously?
A M10 heli coils kit cost 10 euro, and is a nice tool to have anyway.
the tube of jb weld is probably more expensive.
i am always amazed at the bodges i find on used bikes.
fortunately never found level plugs glued in ..yet

"Gluing" the plug in place is a short term quick fix alternative when one wants to keep the machine in service, until a more permanent fix can be done.

To install a Helicoil or other thread repair insert correctly, the rear drive should really be totally disassembled and mounted into a milling machine or at least a drill press. Doing it free-hand or by "eye-ball" usually results in the hole and threads being crooked and then the sealing washer doesn't. Not everyone has the skill or machinery to do this.

[Bulldog9]

I dont have much experience with helicoils or tserts, but on a couple of my older bikes and cars when this has happened, I've used a new/longer plug which has helped, along with a crush washer with the rubber ring on the inside and used the locktite 565.  The last time I changed the transmission oil on the Griso, I felt that 'weak thread' sensation, and I bought a slightly longer plug so I am ready next time. Hopefully won't need more than that.

[radguzzi]

I know that we have covered this ad nauseum, pros and cons of a quick repair vs a proper repair.   Cheap bodge fix or not etc...

Funny that I am leaning toward a tab of Belzona Molecular or Super Metal (JB Weld type epoxy) in the hole and re-tapping for the bolt/plug.  Putting a bolt into that newly threaded hole and Never moving it again.

This is the 7/33 final drive that I need for the Hack.  I will keep the Hack until I am lowered into the ground, my Son has instructions to carry me to my final resting place with the Hack. 

Along with the pages of notes on every motorcycle that I have here, I keep impeccable records and I will make a note of this repair If I go that way. 

Charlie,
I do have a drill and access to a Bridgeport so the repair can be done correctly. 

In the Spring I will try out the 8/33 to see if I really need it on the Hack, probably will swap it back.

Thanks all,
Rob