Wheel balancing weight

[Roebling3]

Thanx everyone. The accumulated knowledge is a breath of fresh air compared to similar - regarding lubricants.   R3~

[guzziart]

I have developed the habit of balancing the bare (tireless) wheels with a somewhat permanent weight. Most tires I have found are "close" to being balanced so mounting and balancing the tire usually takes an oz or so. (sometimes less)

I'm definitely in the "should balance" camp. I believe it to be needed and should be done especially if you are a "high-speed type or going for a track day run. (Also long-distance at freeway speeds).

My .02c

:-)

Interesting point about permanently balancing the bare wheel, I think I will try that the next tire change (hope I remember to do that when the time comes ).

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Before installing a new tire on the cast rear wheel of my V50 III, I decided I'd check the balance of the bare wheel. The wheel runs true and had no cush drive rubbers or valve stem in it. I was quite surprised to find that it was out of balance by nearly 2 ounces! 

[guzziart]

Yeah, I could permanently balance the wheel but I'd still have add weight when I re-balance with tire installed so, I guess the benefit would be less wasted wheel weights over the life of the bike especially if the wheels happened to be way out of whack originally.

[Vagrant]

Not necessarily. I've been doing the bare wheels for years using JB weld to glue weights to the center of the rim while changing tires. 90% of the time no extra weights are needed with any good tire.

[guzziart]

...I'm gonna put a note on my new tires so I don't forget to check wheel balance before I mount the new tires next month.  I'm kinda curious now about how much imbalance there actually is in my wheels.

[Clifton]

For those who don't bother to balance tires I would suggest at least have the wheels themselves balanced next time the tires are off. At the first tire change on a new (to me) motorcycle I balance the wheels themselves. I've found some to be pretty decent while others needed a *lot* of weights. IIRC the rear wheel on a 2000 Honda Nighthawk 750 I had holds the record for most weights. To distinguish, I spray paint the weights that balance the wheels the color of the wheels, the weights balancing the tires are left natural lead.

 Every wheel with TPS that I've checked have been *way* off. You'd think manufacturers would alert their wheel manufacturers to "lighten" the spot at the valve (and TPS) by an amount equal to what the TPS adds, but in the ones I've done so far this has not been the case. On my R1200RS I had to add a lot of weights opposite the valve/TPMS both F&R. I can't imagine how crappy the bike'd ride (and tires unevenly wear) if just spooning a new tire on (especially the front) w/o balancing?

[bcls482]

I am amazed that no one on this topic has mentioned Dyna Beads for tubeless tires.  Forget balancing with weights.  I started using Dyna Beads years ago and have never looked back.  And no....I have never noticed any wear inside the tubeless tire because of them.[/size][/size][/size]

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I am amazed that no one on this topic has mentioned Dyna Beads for tubeless tires.  Forget balancing with weights.  I started using Dyna Beads years ago and have never looked back.  And no....I have never noticed any wear inside the tubeless tire because of them.[/size][/size][/size]

Tried them once, didn't seem to do anything much, never used them again.

[guzziart]

I am amazed that no one on this topic has mentioned Dyna Beads for tubeless tires.  Forget balancing with weights.  I started using Dyna Beads years ago and have never looked back.  And no....I have never noticed any wear inside the tubeless tire because of them.[/size][/size][/size]

I bought a '72 Eldo in 2014 from the original owner, he had installed dyna beads to balance the wheels/tires.  I figure the dyna beads worked well because I never noticed any odd or annoying vibration that I could attribute to wheel balance.  However, every time I went to check tire pressure the schrader valve would not seat & seal unless I added air to blow debris off of the valve seat so it would reseal.  I figure over time those little beads just got smaller & smaller until they were the perfect size to clog the schrader during a routine tire pressure check.  Anyway, I just replaced the tires & tubes on that bike so, no more beads for me.

[Gusable]

I bought a '72 Eldo in 2014 from the original owner, he had installed dyna beads to balance the wheels/tires.  I figure the dyna beads worked well because I never noticed any odd or annoying vibration that I could attribute to wheel balance.  However, every time I went to check tire pressure the schrader valve would not seat & seal unless I added air to blow debris off of the valve seat so it would reseal.  I figure over time those little beads just got smaller & smaller until they were the perfect size to clog the schrader during a routine tire pressure check.  Anyway, I just replaced the tires & tubes on that bike so, no more beads for me.

I love dyna beads.  Never looked back.  They have another brand at oriellys auto parts that’s same thing a lot cheaper too.  I can’t remember the brand

[Huzo]

Those damn dyna beads.
Clear thinking individuals swear by them, but I cannot understand the physics…..

[lucky phil]

Before installing a new tire on the cast rear wheel of my V50 III, I decided I'd check the balance of the bare wheel. The wheel runs true and had no cush drive rubbers or valve stem in it. I was quite surprised to find that it was out of balance by nearly 2 ounces! 

Not hard to understand why a cast wheel is often quite a way out of balance.

Ciao

[acguzzi]

three or four tires back I balanced my rims, haven't had to change the weights since, not perfect but close enough. Tires are pretty well balanced these days. Just balance your rims and save yourself a lot of trouble.

[John A]

Those damn dyna beads.
Clear thinking individuals swear by them, but I cannot understand the physics…..

Some sanctioning bodies in racing don’t approve of them and similar products because if they clump up in a high speed unusual circumstance it leads to a spectacular disintegration of the wheel and tire assembly. Rare, I’m sure but the possibility exists

[guzziart]

FWIW....

I Pulled the rear wheel off my '87 LMIV to replace the worn Dunlop Arrowmax GT501 with a new Bridgestone Battlax BT46.
- The "old tire" and wheel assembly had 21grams of weight.
- I removed the old tire and weights, the wheel (without tire) took 15grams to balance the wheel.
- I then installed the new BT46 and had to add another 20grams to balance, for a grand total of 35g to completely balance the wheel & tire assembly.  So, the wheel had 15g at one location and 20g at another location.....30-40 degrees apart I figure.

Curiousity got to me....
- I removed the 35g of weight I had installed (15g to balance wheel & 20g to further balance after installing tire) and proceeded to re-balance.
- To re-balance the wheel with tire installed required 28g...in one location (radii?).

Is a 7g difference meaningful?  IDK.

So, when I go to do the front tire replacement next week, am I going to balance the bare wheel & check/add weight with new tire installed or balance the wheel & tire as one assembly?  IDK but I'm kinda leaning toward balancing tire & wheel as one assembly.

As one of the guy's said at one of the rally's "Who cares?"

[lucky phil]

FWIW....

I Pulled the rear wheel off my '87 LMIV to replace the worn Dunlop Arrowmax GT501 with a new Bridgestone Battlax BT46.
- The "old tire" and wheel assembly had 21grams of weight.
- I removed the old tire and weights, the wheel (without tire) took 15grams to balance the wheel.
- I then installed the new BT46 and had to add another 20grams to balance, for a grand total of 35g to completely balance the wheel & tire assembly.  So, the wheel had 15g at one location and 20g at another location.....30-40 degrees apart I figure.

Curiousity got to me....
- I removed the 35g of weight I had installed (15g to balance wheel & 20g to further balance after installing tire) and proceeded to re-balance.
- To re-balance the wheel with tire installed required 28g...in one location (radii?).

Is a 7g difference meaningful?  IDK.

So, when I go to do the front tire replacement next week, am I going to balance the bare wheel & check/add weight with new tire installed or balance the wheel & tire as one assembly?  IDK but I'm kinda leaning toward balancing tire & wheel as one assembly.

As one of the guy's said at one of the rally's "Who cares?"

It's complicated. Imagine a sand cast wheel and the casting core is 1mm off centre in the mould. The wheel then gets cast and the hub centre machined and then the rim turned. You end up with a rim and hub thats concentric but with a rim cross section thats 1mm thicker at one location and 1 mm thinner at the opposite location. However it's not so simple as this mass difference all being located at 1 point. The difference tapers off over 90 deg radially in both directions from the thickest cross section which spreads the imbalance. This is why you sometimes see wheels with weights spread over an area. I had a Campag magnesium race wheel once that was particularly bad which would not balance with weights in one location. Balancing the wheel and then the wheel and tyre assembly sounds like a logical idea but in practice it's more complex than this. I think it's sensible to mark the heaviest or lightest location on the wheel and then when you replace the tyre align the tyre red or yellow dot accordingly and balance the assembly. What we do with regards to motorcycle wheel balance is very crude indeed but adequate. I've had to calculate fan trim balance on high bypass jet engines when we needed to replace individual damaged fan blades and that was done with weight calculations and plotting lines on Vector graphs then adjusting balance weight screws in the spinner then running the engine and monitoring the imbalance. Eventually we ended up with computer software that took care of the calculations which was a load off my mind I can tell you.

Ciao   

[guzziart]

Hey Phil,

Ok, I don't understand.....

So, I mark the heavy spot (bottom) & light spot (top) of the wheel, they'll be 180 degrees apart....in my mind!!??  Where do I position the yellow/red dot?   And then, I  balance the whole assembly...right? 

Thanks,

Art

[lucky phil]

Hey Phil,

Ok, I don't understand.....

So, I mark the heavy spot (bottom) & light spot (top) of the wheel, they'll be 180 degrees apart....in my mind!!??  Where do I position the yellow/red dot?   And then, I  balance the whole assembly...right? 

Thanks,

Art

I was just saying Art that using separate permanently fitted weights to balance the wheel independently may seem logical but in practice I believe balance is more complex in it's nature. When I replace a tyre I find the lightest spot on the rim (without any balance weights fitted) then position the tyres red dot (if it has one) at that point then balance the wheel and tyre assembly together.

Phil
 

[guzziart]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the quick response, I understand.  I still have the front wheel to do sometime this week, I'll try your method!

Art

6/27 Update:
Ok, I pulled the front wheel and removed the old tire today.  The light spot was apparently opposite of the valve stem.  So, I mounted the new tire, located the tire balance dot 180° out from the valve stem (heavy spot).  It took 39grams to balance the assembly.  Then, out of curiousity, I aligned the tire balance dot with the valve stem (heavy spot) and proceeded to rebalance.  The repositioned assembly required 3g to balance.   I didn't have a 3g weight but had an old/unused 7g lead weight that I was able to easily cut in half and use.  Yeah, can't cut these new Fe weights and expect them to stick. 

I think I'm done experimenting with wheel balancing and will stick to generally accepted methods (align tire balance dot with valve stem)unless one of my wheels appears to require a large amount of weight to balance, in which case I will try relocating tire position on wheel to lessen the amount of weight required to balance, I guess.

Anyway, this was the fifth tire & wheel I've done with my nomar, Mojolever & Marc Parnes balancer so it has been a bit of a learning experience.  And, I'm pleased that I've been successful and haven't accidentally ruined a new tire!