V700 Clutch question help

[ray40]

I recently acquired a V700 that I finally got running
unfortunately I have no clutch engagement at all -- thought perhaps something was broken internally so removed transmission
and now realize that perhaps there is something up with the engagement lever because inside looks perfect
see pix below - it doesn't appear that there is enough extension on the "plunger" part of the lever to push on the clutch - is that correct ?



thanks all much appreciated

[fotoguzzi]

There is a part missing that sits in the recess. See if you can find a parts book at this old tractor.com

[Don G]

The early levers were like that, nothing wrong there. DonG

[cliffrod]

Beating the drum one more time because these early engines require special attention.

Does “finally got it running” mean

1.cheap and easy clean carb, add gas & battery and it’s running like any other old bike or

2. Completely replacing/resolving original chrome cylinders and all related issues so the engine will not literally self destruct…..

If you haven’t done #2, the dysfunction of the clutch will be the least of your worries.

[Tom H]

If you look closely at the pic, it looks like the rear cover of the trans is off. I can't see the cover bolts, just the holes. Also the shift lever.selector has been removed.

The outer body being flat instead of the raised nipple like on a 5 speed is normal. Had two 4 speed transes. One was flat the other just a small itty bitty nipple.

Thinking that the trans has been removed from the engine, checking the push rod and it's cup as well as the bearing should be easy to do.

Good luck,
Tom

[pehayes]

it doesn't appear that there is enough extension on the "plunger" part of the lever to push on the clutch - is that correct ?

You can't evaluate the throwout system if the transmission has been removed from the engine and then further disassembled.  When fully assembled, I believe that the outer body face should be just about flush with the surrounding casting.  I know that it correct for the 5 speed but perhaps not for the 4 speed.  Your outer body shows recessed about 1/8".  But that is meaningless if it is not currently pushing on the clutch pressure plate.  You can disassemble the various throwout pieces but final evaluation against wear requires full assembly.  Of course, disintegration of the throwout bearing can cause this same spacing and that would be obvious when the parts are disassembled.

Charlie Mullendore will know and hopefully chime in.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

You can't evaluate the throwout system if the transmission has been removed from the engine and then further disassembled.  When fully assembled, I believe that the outer body face should be just about flush with the surrounding casting.  I know that it correct for the 5 speed but perhaps not for the 4 speed.  Your outer body shows recessed about 1/8".  But that is meaningless if it is not currently pushing on the clutch pressure plate.  You can disassemble the various throwout pieces but final evaluation against wear requires full assembly.  Of course, disintegration of the throwout bearing can cause this same spacing and that would be obvious when the parts are disassembled.

Charlie Mullendore will know and hopefully chime in.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Yes, just like the 5 spd., the outer body should be flush or very close to it.

Being a V700, it would have originally had a ball-type throw-out bearing. There were two types used: an early one that had a circular disc with six holes in it for the balls, or later a stamped metal cage that retained the balls. The early type used a unique stepped pushrod that is no longer available. The later type pushrod is.

IMO, if it's a 20 mm throw-out bearing, then it's best enlarged (and sleeved by Patrick) to 22 mm and the 5 spd throw-out bearing used. The common replacement 20 mm needle roller thrust bearing is failure prone in my experience, the 22 mm bearing much better.

[ray40]

thanks for all the responses everyone
turned out I had a incorrectly installed clutch plates so the "piston" that sits in the trans never even made flush to the case or a bit outside of it.
not knowing much about the internals of the 4 speed -- well now I do --- I opened everything up to inspect and had a grand time putting it back together again.....

Current question now trans is all back together -  with all shims where they were - why am I having difficulty turning the assembly? -- Is it possible that the now absent paper gasket added just enough clearance to make the difference? -- I used ultra grey as a sealant and all is fine gently tightened until I torque the bolts to 9 ft/lbs -

in reference to comment about the dreaded chrome bores -- a long talk with Curtis Harper convinced me that the chrome bore issue is overblown as long as one has solid compression in both cylinders - I do so...

[ray40]

Charlie -

Turns out I have early type 20mm bearing with 5 balls and no cage - but I also have a 228mm clutch rod which is from the later bikes as far as I know.
Are you saying I can use the 22mm bearing? - what do you mean by modification?




- Ray Q

[cliffrod]

thanks for all the responses everyone…

in reference to comment about the dreaded chrome bores -- a long talk with Curtis Harper convinced me that the chrome bore issue is overblown as long as one has solid compression in both cylinders - I do so...

The larger consensus regarding the stability of the chrome bores seems to be related to how active the bike has been- always ridden bikes seem to have better condition bores than bikes that weren’t.   The unavoidable tangent to the “overblown” argument is that no one familiar with early Moto Guzzi V-twins & this specific issue will buy your bike for much more than parts/scrap price if the chrome bores & all related potential damage have been resolved.  That’s because many of us have btdt and learned that wishful thinking didn’t avoid, pay for or fix the issues. 

Good luck.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Charlie -

Turns out I have early type 20mm bearing with 5 balls and no cage - but I also have a 228mm clutch rod which is from the later bikes as far as I know.
Are you saying I can use the 22mm bearing? - what do you mean by modification?




- Ray Q

That looks like the early type t/o bearing and pushrod. The pushrods for both types are the same length, but the early type fits through the disk the balls fit in, just as you show.

If that's still in good condition and still working, run it. If it needs to be replaced, upgrading to the 22 mm bearing would be a good choice. The rear cover of the transmission would need to be bored and a sleeve with 22 mm i.d. inserted - Patrick Hayes can do this. Then you'd need the 22 mm inner and outer bodies, throw-out bearing, and pushrod.

in reference to comment about the dreaded chrome bores -- a long talk with Curtis Harper convinced me that the chrome bore issue is overblown as long as one has solid compression in both cylinders - I do so...

The larger consensus regarding the stability of the chrome bores seems to be related to how active the bike has been- always ridden bikes seem to have better condition bores than bikes that weren’t.   The unavoidable tangent to the “overblown” argument is that no one familiar with early Moto Guzzi V-twins & this specific issue will buy your bike for much more than parts/scrap price if the chrome bores & all related potential damage have been resolved.  That’s because many of us have btdt and learned that wishful thinking didn’t avoid, pay for or fix the issues. 

Good luck.

I'm presently working on a '71 Ambassador for a customer. He's owned it since '78 and has ridden it regularly ever since. He reported "no oil usage". Here's what the cylinders look like.














The light colored areas is where the chrome has flaked off. Crank is worn, bearings useless, oil pump junk. Overblown. Yeah, right.  I've never opened up any older Guzzi engine (two dozen plus) with chrome bores that didn't have some level of deterioration. Sometimes it's what I call "starry night" - the chrome is worn so thin that the alloy cylinder casting is showing through like stars in a night sky. Other times (like shown above) whole sections of chrome are gone.

Running chrome bores is like playing Russian Roulette with your engine.

[ray40]

Didnt mean to turn this into another thread about chrome bores -- (and if anyone has an idea on why my transmission is still hard to turn it would be appreciated)--

but here are a pix of the chrome bores 1968 V700 7k miles - wear is apparent at the very top of stroke and some "sparkles" in the bores - tnx Charlie for the previous pix
I suppose I have another winter project..
perhaps there isn't enough wear to warrant a complete teardown and bottom end rebuild......?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Didnt mean to turn this into another thread about chrome bores -- (and if anyone has an idea on why my transmission is still hard to turn it would be appreciated)--

but here are a pix of the chrome bores 1968 V700 7k miles - wear is apparent at the very top of stroke and some "sparkles" in the bores - tnx Charlie for the previous pix
I suppose I have another winter project..
perhaps there isn't enough wear to warrant a complete teardown and bottom end rebuild......?

There is enough chrome gone already that I would be concerned. More than enough to do expensive damage.

There are no Gilardoni kits for V700s (last batch made was years ago), so the best bet is to have the original cylinders replated by Millennium Technologies.

A V700 drivetrain rebuild I did for a customer a few years ago.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm48h8as

[cliffrod]

I wasn’t trying to redirect the thread, either. I was trying help someone properly address their early Guzzi’s needs. 

It’s not inexpensive or necessarily fun, but you’ll be glad you did it right the first time with no short cuts.   I heard similar “overblown issue” comments decades ago when I first built my V7 Sport, when many thought the chrome bore topic was lots of worrying and noise about a non-issue.  So I only replaced the cylinders, pistons & rings and went riding- Big mistake.  Some claim the chrome lasts better if the bikes are ridden constantly & not parked.  But after 50+ yrs, regular use translates into high mileage which takes a comparable negative toll on chrome plating, as Charlie’s pics show.  So replacement & overall engine service is mandatory.

Once the rest of my bike is built, my V700 is waiting for the same engine & trans attention.

[ray40]

There is enough chrome gone already that I would be concerned. More than enough to do expensive damage.

There are no Gilardoni kits for V700s (last batch made was years ago), so the best bet is to have the original cylinders replated by Millennium Technologies.

Safe to say damage from chrome would be in the typical areas of a gas engine bottom end rebuild? - all main/rod bearings, oil pump, crankshaft - what else am I missing?
Just trying to get a handle on what I am in for once I start down this road

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Safe to say damage from chrome would be in the typical areas of a gas engine bottom end rebuild? - all main/rod bearings, oil pump, crankshaft - what else am I missing?
Just trying to get a handle on what I am in for once I start down this road

Could also damage the camshaft and the engine case (cam runs directly in the case), but that's rare.

[moto-uno]

  Concerning the tight turning transmission , if you shimmed the shafts (etc) to the least suggested
end play , the gasket does become the allowable free play . Have fun !  Peter

[ray40]

  Concerning the tight turning transmission , if you shimmed the shafts (etc) to the least suggested
end play , the gasket does become the allowable free play . Have fun !  Peter

Very good - Appreciate it Moto-Uno !