V7 Engine Rebuild—What oil to use?

[Dirk_S]

I’ve read multiple accounts that recommend using mineral over synthetic following a rebuild to help everything break in. However, I’m having trouble finding anything but full synthetic for the 10w60 that the V7s use. Suggestions?

[Bob Wegman]

How about finding out what is in a V7 from the factory (ask a dealer).  A new engine would be like a rebuilt engine with break-in requirements.

[n3303j]

Local Amsoil dealer rebuilt his hot rod and filled it with Amsoil.

25,000 miles later he stripped it and rebuilt it again and filled it with Dino oil.

The rings never wore in to fit the first time. It never stopped burning oil.

I'd choose an oil suitable for the temp ranges and service specs you will encounter before the next oil change.

In my opinion rings should be completely seated in 500 (like you stole it) miles. Then synthetic forever.

[Tom H]

If it were me (ignoring for the moment the V7 specs syn 10W-60), I would just run a regular oil for a...hmmm??....500-1000 miles for break in. I would pick one closest to 10W-60. Maybe 15W-50 or maybe if there is a 10W-50? Even 10W-40 would work for a short time in cooler conditions.

There are oils designed for break in, I think they are dino. There may be one in your weight??

Anyone have thoughts on how long for the break in??

If it was one of my old bikes not spec'ing syn and lets say I normally run syn in it. I would just run dino until I'm ready to change the oil. Then go syn again.

Tom

[cliffrod]

My two cents-

100% oem Guzzi parts?  Use 100% recommended Guzzi oil. Ask and find out if anything special for oil is used for break in period, including any additives like zinc.  You should be able to source that info via dealer or higher up in the food chain.

Mix of oem and aftermarket parts?  I would use Dino oil with higher zinc content along with  the typical break-in lube on camshaft, etc.  lots of older engines, especially ones with plain camshaft & non-roller lifters, really need the zinc to properly break in.  It’s a common issue with the older Ford FE engines that I like.  Very easy to wipe out a camshaft lobe, lifter or both during break-in if adequate lube and zinc are not present.

A modern V7 engine isn’t an antiquated American v8, but if there are any doubts I doubt the extra zinc will hurt if. Chase the right info via Moto Guzzi while the winter weather blows..  You won’t regret it.

[Bulldog9]

Why use oil at all, youre gonna break it anyway............. .....

[Dirk_S]

Why use oil at all, youre gonna break it anyway............. .....

Knowing my history, that play on words might not be far from the truth.

[Brand X]

https://maximausa.com/series-310-performance-break-in.html

Pretty close in 15w-50  I don't think you would ever find 10-60 break-in oil. 

[bad Chad]

All Guzzi come from the factory with full synthetic 10w60, that has been the case for decades.  At one point it was 20w50, but that was dumped around 2009.

[n3303j]

All Guzzi come from the factory with full synthetic 10w60, that has been the case for decades.  At one point it was 20w50, but that was dumped around 2009.

And I keep seeing these posts about oil consumption on newer bikes.
Maybe the synthetic at break in has something to do with it?

[kingoffleece]

Or, maybe they get "babied" too much at first.  Cylinder pressure is needed to set the rings.  I'll leave it at that.

[elrealistico]

In olden times it was decreed thou shalt use 30W non detergent oil on rebuilt engines, for some very short interval-- 10 minutes or 50 miles  depending on what old greybeard was pontificating on such. This was because folks had 30W oil on hand a lot back then for two stroke stuff, I think. I did as well, so I would do that and drain it, seeing what if any bitsa metal came out from my amateur monkey wrenching. Then put in the MFR recommended oil after that and change it at about 500 mi. Things will have settled in by then, or exploded as the case may be

[n3303j]

First 200 mile break-in on my V11 used a pint of oil.
Next 300 miles didn't show a visible change on the dipstick.

First 100 below 45 through twisties and hills with a lot of on/off the throttle. Like I was on the run but wanted to survive the corners.
Second hundred highway below 85 but a fair amount of on/off the throttle to provide pressure boosts and cooling periods.
Re-torque heads & reset rocker clearance.

Next 300 back roads all the way up to Maine (150 mi).
Highway most of the way home.
All done at my (old guy) normal.

Rings are finished wearing in and can now start wearing out.

[Stretch]

All Guzzi come from the factory with full synthetic 10w60, that has been the case for decades.  At one point it was 20w50, but that was dumped around 2009.

Even cars come with full synthetic from the factory now.
No "break-in" oil change needed on many of 'em.

Does this question mean that you have your motor back together now, Dirk?   

                                                        -Stretch

[Dirk_S]

Does this question mean that you have your motor back together now, Dirk?   

Ha, I wish! AF1 shows an estimated Nov 18th arrival date of all my parts to their warehouse. I know there have been delays in the past, so I’ll repeat my oft-wise mantra of “we’ll see”. But I certainly want to get ahead of the ball for when everything does arrive. Positive mindset has me back on the road by December 5th (arbitrarily set date).

[Brand X]

My 2020 Moto2 765 had break-in oil from the factory.. In fact the original 675 engine could start smoking if the factory oil was changed out too soon..
Zero issues from running a non-syn oil, and a possible problem using Syn. in it.. You get to chose..

[Moparnut72]

When we got my wife's new Jeep Grand Cherokee it used a quart and a half in short order. I was afraid we had major problems. It hasn't used a drop since. 
kk

[Stretch]

Ha, I wish!

Good luck, lad! I hope the parts come in on time.

                                       -Stretch

[Bulldog9]

I've yet to dig into Guzzi motor, but I am going to assume they use solid lifters? Solid Rollers? When building motors I always used break in oil, mostly to break in the cam and new lifters. Or do they use some kind of special coating on the cams? That's what I would worry about if using new cam and lifters, but I have no real knowledge or experience here.

As KOF noted, the rings need to be properly broken in on a new motor with strong accel and decel and varying of engine speeds otherwise you may find the motor burns oil prematurely.

[Kev m]

Or, maybe they get "babied" too much at first.  Cylinder pressure is needed to set the rings.  I'll leave it at that.

Or maybe they seal so well that "consumption" is through the breather system and throttle body, and the deficiency is there and not the rings.

[Kev m]

Even cars come with full synthetic from the factory now.
No "break-in" oil change needed on many of 'em.

Does this question mean that you have your motor back together now, Dirk?   

                                                        -Stretch

.

I agree with you on this.

The one thing that held me back from pointing it out is that my time in OEM factories is extremely limited and I don't know for certain they they don't test run and dump any oil after engine assembly.

My swag is no, but I simply have no data point.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Or maybe they seal so well that "consumption" is through the breather system and throttle body, and the deficiency is there and not the rings.

Just how do you pressurise the breather system ?
Rings ARE the between point twixt combustion and crankcase

Yes SOME modern rings break in on synthetic oil.

Me, I use the running in oil, once bitten, twice shy.
But any dino pre SH if none of good stuff around

[Kev m]

Just how do you pressurise the breather system ?
Rings ARE the between point twixt combustion and crankcase

A sticky breather valve, a clogged passage etc.

But that wasn't actually my point. As you know crankcase pressure is created by the well sealed pistons moving in the cylinders and case.

On modern smallblocks it seems to push a lot of oil into the airbox through the breather system.

Therefore consumption is sometimes from drawing it into the throttle body and introducing it to the combustion chamber that way even though the rings are fine.

That was the point.

[Bulldog9]

A sticky breather valve, a clogged passage etc.

But that wasn't actually my point. As you know crankcase pressure is created by the well sealed pistons moving in the cylinders and case.

On modern smallblocks it seems to push a lot of oil into the airbox through the breather system.

Therefore consumption is sometimes from drawing it into the throttle body and introducing it to the combustion chamber that way even though the rings are fine.

That was the point.

This is moot to the discussion. Pushing oil in the airbox is not 'consuming' it is 'puking' 

The discussion on setting the rings on a new or rebuilt motor is related to oil burning I think.

[Kev m]

This is moot to the discussion. Pushing oil in the airbox is not 'consuming' it is 'puking' 

The discussion on setting the rings on a new or rebuilt motor is related to oil burning I think.

Ok, I'll try one more time with a deeper voice for those in the back.

I suspect some smallblocks on which the oil level drops in service are actually just "losing" it to the airbox and possibly ingesting it and burning that way and not from the rings.

That's not to say that some might not have ring problems.

But some people report intermittent usage and considering how much oil is carried to the airbox sometimes this could explain intermittent loses.

Or to state it another way I don't personally think the use of synthetic oils from the factory are a pattern problem with new Guzzi smallblocks with regards to them not breaking in properly. Which is the concept I was responding to a few posts back.

It's a tangentially related conversation to Dirk's original question of what to use for his rebuild break-in.

[Bulldog9]

Ok, I'll try one more time with a deeper voice for those in the back.

I suspect some smallblocks on which the oil level drops in service are actually just "losing" it to the airbox and possibly ingesting it and burning that way and not from the rings.

That's not to say that some might not have ring problems.

But some people report intermittent usage and considering how much oil is carried to the airbox sometimes this could explain intermittent loses.

Or to state it another way I don't personally think the use of synthetic oils from the factory are a pattern problem with new Guzzi smallblocks with regards to them not breaking in properly. Which is the concept I was responding to a few posts back.

It's a tangentially related conversation to Dirk's original question of what to use for his rebuild break-in.

Tangential? That's a squeeky voice bro...... even some nasally whine 

The discussion was/is about bedding oil rings. Anyone with a V7 knows they blow oil in the airbox, usually to just below 1/2 on the dipstick. Checking blowby in the airbox is an easy thing to do.

[n3303j]

<SNIP>
But that wasn't actually my point. As you know crankcase pressure is created by the well sealed pistons moving in the cylinders and case.
<SNIP>

I sort of wondered about that on my vintage BMW and Ural which both have timed breather valves.
But my V11 has a ball check valve that vents crankcase pressure to the atmosphere as the pistons descend in the bore. When the pistons begin the return stroke the check valve closes and crankcase pressure drops below atmospheric pressure (minus what blows by the rings). So in an ideal situation the crankcase runs below atmospheric pressure.

I'd be curious to plug a vacuum gage into the dipstick hole just to see what the actual situation is.

[SIR REAL ED]

Even cars come with full synthetic from the factory now.
No "break-in" oil change needed on many of 'em.

Does this question mean that you have your motor back together now, Dirk?   

                                                        -Stretch

Lots of great opinions on this thread.  I think you are safe following any of them.

When I worked at the General Motors engine manufacturing plant in Tonawanda, NY, waaaaaaay back in the mid 1980's, I was a bit surprised to find that the cylinder bores in some of the newer engines were "polished" to a mirror finish before the pistons and rings were installed.  The older design engines like the 454 simply had honed bores.

Apparently the GM engineers (obviously a bunch of numb skulls) had determined that the new process was better (?) and no piston/ring break-in was required.

For a machine shop honed cylinder, I would use a petroleum based oil, and if you are worried about it, change it often.  Some sources claim the rings are seated within 30 miles or less!  I've heard of race shops breaking in engines on the dyne by running the pee pee out of them for just a few minutes.  They may be looking for maximum BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure) in the cylinder and not caring much about longevity.

Me.... with any new engine, I do lots of top gear full throttle roll-ons from low rpm, followed by throttle closings for the first few dozen miles.  The roll-ons fully load the rings and force them out against the cylinder (so they can scrap off the peaks of the high spots), and the throttle closing drops the pressure above the piston and allow oil to seep up between the rings and the cylinders providing the necessary lubrication.  Other thoughts are you are varying the heat load of the engine.

Or so the theory goes.......  YMMV!

I usually change the oil at 50 miles and again at 300 miles simply to ease my mind about cleaning out the machining debris.  I stay away from synthetics until I get 1,000 miles on a new engine.

That is just me.  Some may agree or disagree.  Everyone should follow their own conscience since it is their bike.

[Mike Tashjian]

Sir Real Ed.  You are doing exactly what I do and I have had great results over the years.  Well stated.   

[SIR REAL ED]

Sir Real Ed.  You are doing exactly what I do and I have had great results over the years.  Well stated.

 

Thanks for the kind words, but please be more sparing with that praise in the future kind sir.... I'm only a hair's breath away from being a Flaming A**hole on my best days!  More confidence would only inflame my persoanlity disorders.....

Then there are about 4 days each month, where I am even more difficult to get along with.......