2021 V7 850 Stone - Mechanical Problems

[usedtobefast]

It would cost me around a G to get this MC away to a different dealership. So not really ideal.

Why so much?  Ride bike there, leave it, train ride home. Do opposite to pick it up. 
Or ride bike there, friend follows in car, leave bike, ride back with friend.

I understand it being expensive if you pay some transport company to carry it there and back, but hopefully there are some other options.

From what you've explained, I have 0.001% faith that your current dealer is going to sort anything out.  I would say they know they are incompetent, and when you show up they are thinking "oh no, not this bike again.  We can't get that one sorted out.  We'll tell him they all do that and hopefully he'll go away." 

There is a thread on here where a guy was having lots of problems with his V7 850 ... took it back to his dealership several times, no luck ... took it to better dealership, they dug into, and I believe the end result was a brand new ECU (could have been some other stuff too) ... and I think his has been fine since.    Have you seen that thread?

[Speciality]

Just had an another look at the videos. I have a V7 850 Special. On that both amber lights flash until the bike has been ridden a short distance/speed ie ABS and TC. On videos 3 and 4 it seems that only the l/h/s amber light is flashing. Is that normal on a Stone? (The first 2 videos show both lights flashing). Is TC disabled in these later videos?

As you will know, but owners of earlier bikes might not, the starter button can also be pressed again when the engine is running. (I always expect a hideous graunching sound….) This is how the TC can be switched off. The point I am making is that it is a Canbus system and as such might not be as simple to fix as older ones where the starter button is just that.

You mention not wishing to void your warranty by reflashing the ECU yourself, as I did. Yet you have already fitted aftermarket exhausts without a reflash and have disabled the canister. I can’t see how the warranty can be upheld anyway, though I don’t know where you live.

The mode button on mine is slow to react; instead of broadband it communicates with the ECU as if it were dial-up modem…Mine too has occasionally suffered a delay in responding to the start button. I’m not sure that this in itself is an issue, though I still recommend dismantling, cleaning the contacts and adding some sort of barrier against water ingress - I use Vaseline. I also second the advice on checking the battery terminals as well as the battery itself. Modern ones can fail early compared to the old lead/acid type.

[Bulldog9]

Tough to diagnose over the internet and what seems to be spotty info. The subterfuge is a bit silly IMO.

I would stop washing the bike weekly. You have probably created rust and corrosion in places you dont want. I would go ove every ground point, and connection, clean and put a coat of Vaseline on connections. Some V7's have had plug cap issues, but rarely spark plug wires and coils.

I'd also reconnect the evap system, or cap/close it properly.  You also likely need to look at your fuel map. I find it odd your dealer, as crappy as they seem aren't pointing to an improperly modified evap system as part of your running issues.

Circling back to washing, stick to spray bottle wash and wax for tank, body and chrome/shiny parts, even for tires and rims. I only do a full wash annually or every couple years, though I do keep the shiny parts shiny. I rarely if ever have used water or hose. When cleaning the engine/trans, I use Ballistol a spray cleaner/oil that is rubber safe. Water causes corrosion....... Corrosion causes problems. I hope you are taking the bike out and riding it till all is hot and water is evaporated. If you wash and put away, you are and will cause problems.

Just my 40+ years of riding and maintaining motorcycles .02.

[Huzo]

Tough to diagnose over the internet and what seems to be spotty info. The subterfuge is a bit silly IMO.

I would stop washing the bike weekly. You have probably created rust and corrosion in places you dont want. I would go ove every ground point, and connection, clean and put a coat of Vaseline on connections. Some V7's have had plug cap issues, but rarely spark plug wires and coils.

I'd also reconnect the evap system, or cap/close it properly.  You also likely need to look at your fuel map. I find it odd your dealer, as crappy as they seem aren't pointing to an improperly modified evap system as part of your running issues.

Circling back to washing, stick to spray bottle wash and wax for tank, body and chrome/shiny parts, even for tires and rims. I only do a full wash annually or every couple years, though I do keep the shiny parts shiny. I rarely if ever have used water or hose. When cleaning the engine/trans, I use Ballistol a spray cleaner/oil that is rubber safe. Water causes corrosion....... Corrosion causes problems. I hope you are taking the bike out and riding it till all is hot and water is evaporated. If you wash and put away, you are and will cause problems.

Just my 40+ years of riding and maintaining motorcycles .02.

I reckon that all sounds pretty solid.

[disco_cisco]

Well I would treat the “dealer” as if he never existed and begin the sorting out trek myself. He’s as much use as tits on a bull, you’re better off without him.
Just watching your starter button video, it’s hard to tell if the button is failing to provide current to the solenoid, or it is and the solenoid is failing, I cannot hear a “click”.
But in any case..
I’d disconnect the leads to the right handlebar cluster, find the wire/s from the starter button and with a battery and test lead, check that the button is actually switching flawlessly, if not, find out why and fix it.
If it is switching ok, go down to the solenoid and check if the current is getting there.
Also check, clean and tighten BOTH ENDS…! of your battery leads and ensure your battery is up to standard.
Never mind how new or old it is.

As others have said, you’ve the patience of a saint and are to be commended as such.
Do a simple test each time you get the chance and start your bike in an absolutely dark environment, if there are stray sparks leaking, you will see the glow quite well.
I would try to move the tank away a bit so you can view the coil area for such sparks.

Obtain and learn to use Guzzidiag, it may have thrown a code that can give you some guidance and you can re set your TGPS and generally get to know the workings a bit.

I know what you mean about the dealer.. But I just can't afford to dump money to repair a new bought bike, specially since it is still under warranty.
I might give Guzzidiag a go.
The coil problem is fixed, I'm almost certain, hence why I find it odd for it to still be stalling on cold starts.

Thank you for the input Huzo.

I’ve got a number of thoughts. Note that I’m no super experienced chap with great mechanical knowledge, but I do have enough to sometimes help (and sometimes get in trouble).

1) If you did the maintenance service yourself, does that include the valve adjustments? Did you have someone knowledgeable help you out with that part?

2) 150 km is somewhere around 93 US miles.  I don’t think that’s too uncommon for a new bike at a dealer, especially if the bike sat at on the floor for a while, and the dealer is near rural roads where test riders can go 5-10 miles at a time. If the dealer you bought this from is not in the middle of a big city, then maybe they just had multiple people test riding the bike, including themselves. But, I would be concerned with the quality of those 150 km ridden before you bought it. These motorcycles have a 600-mile (900-1000 km) break-in period, requiring the machine to be ridden within a threshold of conditions and throttle response. Hopefully none of those test rides were ripping around too hard.

3) starter button not working:

—squirt some contact cleaner or WD40 into the button recess, see if that helps. Wires and buttons need to be kept lubricated, some more than others.

—after you lubricate the button, if you experience issues starting again, wiggle the cable a little, and even trace the wiring back to its harness, see if anything might be in the way and causing a short or maybe not completely connected properly.

—I assume you looking down at your left foot is pointing out that the side stand is up. And I see you’re in Neutral. might want to check your side stand safety switch anyway, maybe there’s some faulting. Spray some contact cleaner on that as well.

4) intermittent shutoff on cold starts:

—That’s not rare, especially in colder temperatures. My V7II  did that as well. I think a map update fixed it, but don’t remember for sure because I also had an oxygen sensor replaced at the same time (moisture had gotten into it and it caused throttle issues at certain speeds). If you’re still on the stock map, they’re pretty restrictive in order to pass emissions; I’ve read numerous comments about the 850’s stock map being particularly troublesome. If you can have the dealer do an update, that could solve some hiccups.

—back to the sensors: You could try unplugging your sensors and giving them a good cleaning.

—What kind of fuel are you putting into the bike on the regular? Is it clean? I’m curious if your fuel filter might be acting up.

5) Oil pressure:

—I’ve learned the hard way that Guzzis are sensitive to the amount of oil in the system.  With the Guzzi small block, they don’t take much oil, which means it’s even more crucial to make sure the proper amount is in at all times.

When you check the level, you’re checking the oil level when the engine is hot and the bike is vertically straight, not leaned over, right?

—Also, have you looked inside your airbox? Any oil puddled up on the bottom?

1 - Valve adjustments have been done by the dealership (2x) as it was thought to be one of the causes for it to fail at starts.

2 - I understand. I don't have much experience with brand new bikes and just thought it was kind of fishy later on. If the bike was working fine, I wouldn't really have a problem with that.

3 - Indeed. I will try the cleaner once a week.

4 - It has had the two major updates, runs a bit better but I still have problems with the cold starts and the engine pressure oil alarm. I am certainly getting a map fix for it, just waiting until the warranty voids. What sensors should I remove and clean? I use 95 octanes fuel, as recommended in the user manual. I'll note down the fuel filter and ask them to have a look.

5 - I usually check the oil when the bike is cold or maybe 20 mins after riding, standing upright.
   - I will check if there is oil in the air filter box, if there is, what does it mean?

Many thanks for the advice Dirk 

Why so much?  Ride bike there, leave it, train ride home. Do opposite to pick it up. 
Or ride bike there, friend follows in car, leave bike, ride back with friend.

I understand it being expensive if you pay some transport company to carry it there and back, but hopefully there are some other options.

From what you've explained, I have 0.001% faith that your current dealer is going to sort anything out.  I would say they know they are incompetent, and when you show up they are thinking "oh no, not this bike again.  We can't get that one sorted out.  We'll tell him they all do that and hopefully he'll go away." 

There is a thread on here where a guy was having lots of problems with his V7 850 ... took it back to his dealership several times, no luck ... took it to better dealership, they dug into, and I believe the end result was a brand new ECU (could have been some other stuff too) ... and I think his has been fine since.    Have you seen that thread?

I haven't seen it that post but will look for it. I know what you mean about the dealership, I wish it could be as simple as that but it is not. There are risks, it will cost money and a lot of time. Ultimately, if I have to, I'll spend the money. But I would rather not.

Thanks for the advice usedtobefast 

Just had an another look at the videos. I have a V7 850 Special. On that both amber lights flash until the bike has been ridden a short distance/speed ie ABS and TC. On videos 3 and 4 it seems that only the l/h/s amber light is flashing. Is that normal on a Stone? (The first 2 videos show both lights flashing). Is TC disabled in these later videos?

As you will know, but owners of earlier bikes might not, the starter button can also be pressed again when the engine is running. (I always expect a hideous graunching sound….) This is how the TC can be switched off. The point I am making is that it is a Canbus system and as such might not be as simple to fix as older ones where the starter button is just that.

You mention not wishing to void your warranty by reflashing the ECU yourself, as I did. Yet you have already fitted aftermarket exhausts without a reflash and have disabled the canister. I can’t see how the warranty can be upheld anyway, though I don’t know where you live.

The mode button on mine is slow to react; instead of broadband it communicates with the ECU as if it were dial-up modem…Mine too has occasionally suffered a delay in responding to the start button. I’m not sure that this in itself is an issue, though I still recommend dismantling, cleaning the contacts and adding some sort of barrier against water ingress - I use Vaseline. I also second the advice on checking the battery terminals as well as the battery itself. Modern ones can fail early compared to the old lead/acid type.

I honestly wouldn't know. I've never riden another 850 and the lights have always been this way, they all go away after driving for 2 meters or so.
I fully understand how TC works. It is set to "1" at all times.
I would expect warranty to uphold since all those mods and aftermarket parts were done/worked/recommended by them. I was only warned that it would void if I did an ECU reflash. So that was what I didn't do. Either I'm in trouble or they're in big trouble. Either way, I will keep you guys posted on how it goes.

Once again, thank you for the input Speciality.

Tough to diagnose over the internet and what seems to be spotty info. The subterfuge is a bit silly IMO.

I would stop washing the bike weekly. You have probably created rust and corrosion in places you dont want. I would go ove every ground point, and connection, clean and put a coat of Vaseline on connections. Some V7's have had plug cap issues, but rarely spark plug wires and coils.

I'd also reconnect the evap system, or cap/close it properly.  You also likely need to look at your fuel map. I find it odd your dealer, as crappy as they seem aren't pointing to an improperly modified evap system as part of your running issues.

Circling back to washing, stick to spray bottle wash and wax for tank, body and chrome/shiny parts, even for tires and rims. I only do a full wash annually or every couple years, though I do keep the shiny parts shiny. I rarely if ever have used water or hose. When cleaning the engine/trans, I use Ballistol a spray cleaner/oil that is rubber safe. Water causes corrosion....... Corrosion causes problems. I hope you are taking the bike out and riding it till all is hot and water is evaporated. If you wash and put away, you are and will cause problems.

Just my 40+ years of riding and maintaining motorcycles .02.

I apologize for the spotty info. I tried to put down as much information as I could in the simplest manner I could as it might lead to a better understanding of what is going on or what could be wrong with the bike. I'm also not a native English speaker, so I'm trying my best to be as accurate and coherent (I had to google how to spell that) as possible.

I'll cut down the washing to as much as possible. But it is very common to wash and spray your bikw with protectant here. Our sea breeze gets a lot of salt into a lot of places which makes corrosion a lot worse if you don't water it down and spray it with protectant (I use muc off sylicone). The only two places where I have corrosion are the horn (getting pretty bad) and the ABS disc sensor thingys, which are damn hard to maintain. I can assure you that after washing it is dried up, riden and then sprayed with protectant. I know I'm anal about it but salt really gets to everything out here.

I will ask them to take another look at the evap system and restore it to what it was, I'm ok with that and won't miss the smell of gasoline in the garage.

Thank you for the advice Bulldog9

-----------------------------------


Thanks guys for the input, I will keep you all updated and let you know what's wrong with it (if there is a fix).

Please bear in mind that I didn't post this as way to complain about the dealership. I was really hoping it was some sort of silly fix and someone on the internet could have some knowledge of what is going on.

I will keep working on it and keep you guys updated!

Thank you all

[usedtobefast]

Here is the link to the thread I mentioned:  https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=113226.90

Not exactly your same set of symptoms, but same thing where main dealership could not sort out issues and seemed to be guessing and swapping some stuff out ... then a really good dealer seemed to get to the real issue and fixed the bike.

Good luck

[Beowulf]

Here is the link to the thread I mentioned:  https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=113226.90

Not exactly your same set of symptoms, but same thing where main dealership could not sort out issues and seemed to be guessing and swapping some stuff out ... then a really good dealer seemed to get to the real issue and fixed the bike.

Good luck

I been following this thread. Lots of solid advice. A few May remember I was having trouble with my v7 850. Randomly would not start and then wouldn’t start at all. Revved high and wouldn’t idle down. Back and forth to the dealer. Finally took it to the more competent dealer in my state. Turned out to be a faulty ecu. Until then was pulling my hair out. Best wishes find a better dealer it on the end was the only thing that saved me. Riding with no issues and nearly 16000 miles.

[bad Chad]

Sounds like there is going to be a lot of "leading a horse to water", but not much "drinking".

[vf84pc]

I find it concerning they found bad wires and bad coils. I doubt the coils were bad, they were “Shot gun troubleshooting” Starter button? That’s a sealed unit.
Computer controlled bikes have a start sequence the When they key is turned to the on position the ECU makes sure all conditions are met then when the Starter button contact is made the ECU opens the circuit to allow 12 VDC to the starter relay.
One of the start up conditions is not being met if pressing the contact button the starter does not engage. When you press the starter does the Solenoid get 12 VDC applied to the contacts?
The late model V7’s needed a fuel map upgrade to fix a cold start stumble. What I remember my friends 850 V7 would stall after starting and run rough for a few minutes, He had the upgrade done and the bike was flawless.
Running Mistrals no DB killers with no remap will cause “flat spots”  and other issues.
Did you disconnect the environmental stuff or did the dealer?
Did you buy the bike from a Moto Guzzi dealer or another dealer?
If you take the bike to an official Moto Guzzi dealer it is covered under warranty.
Sounds like you live in Canada, I am in Western NY 30 miles to Niagara Falls if you are near me you can come down or I can meet you in Ontario. We can perform some checks, methodically documenting our steps so we can fix one problem at a time. Starting with the no start issue. Greg Bender should have the V7 maintenance manual on his thisoldtractor site. Your dealer sounds incompetent.

[DesertPilot]

Is the main power relay-- which may be misnamed something like 'Injector/Load relay' on the wiring diagram --  plugged in properly?  Could a bit of water have gotten into the plug?  I had a vaguely similar intermittant electrical problem with my V85TT.  It was quite the saga, lasting many months, that eventually got fixed when the shop pulled the relay -- I'd checked this myself, but not carefully enough -- cleaned the contacts, and plugged it back in.

[disco_cisco]

I find it concerning they found bad wires and bad coils. I doubt the coils were bad, they were “Shot gun troubleshooting” Starter button? That’s a sealed unit.
Computer controlled bikes have a start sequence the When they key is turned to the on position the ECU makes sure all conditions are met then when the Starter button contact is made the ECU opens the circuit to allow 12 VDC to the starter relay.
One of the start up conditions is not being met if pressing the contact button the starter does not engage. When you press the starter does the Solenoid get 12 VDC applied to the contacts?
The late model V7’s needed a fuel map upgrade to fix a cold start stumble. What I remember my friends 850 V7 would stall after starting and run rough for a few minutes, He had the upgrade done and the bike was flawless.
Running Mistrals no DB killers with no remap will cause “flat spots”  and other issues.
Did you disconnect the environmental stuff or did the dealer?
Did you buy the bike from a Moto Guzzi dealer or another dealer?
If you take the bike to an official Moto Guzzi dealer it is covered under warranty.
Sounds like you live in Canada, I am in Western NY 30 miles to Niagara Falls if you are near me you can come down or I can meet you in Ontario. We can perform some checks, methodically documenting our steps so we can fix one problem at a time. Starting with the no start issue. Greg Bender should have the V7 maintenance manual on his thisoldtractor site. Your dealer sounds incompetent.

Bought from an official dealership, but I am in Europe and the nearest official dealership (besides the one around) is something like 900 miles away.  Thank you so much for offering to meet me and do some checks. I really would if I could.

Your post is on point, I'll check the solenoid for 12V.

Everything was bought, fixed, serviced, maintained etc.. on the official dealership, where I bought the MC.

The dealership is currently having another look at the MC, I will update you guys regardless of the outcome.

Thank you again