2013 Stelvio NTX Startus Interuptus

[ediehl]

I know this topic has been covered a lot, but I just thought I'd relate my specifics before doing anything more. So, I get a loud CLUNK from the solenoid when I press the starter button. It started as intermittent, and then went full-time. I replaced the battery; no change.  I pulled the starter off, and when I ground the housing, I see that the starter gear does extend and spin. I sanded the terminals on the solenoid (which looked OK anyway) and used dielectric grease. After a few removals and re installations of the starter, I was always back to CLUNK. I removed the solenoid, wondering if there were some contacts I could clean, but I didn't see any. This time when I reinstalled, I was thinking it was time for a new relay or starter or whatever, but she started right up! It was fine for maybe a dozen times, with rides in between, but now I'm back to CLUNK. I'm thinking maybe I should start by replacing both starter relays (where are they on the NTX?). Or should I just do the automotive relay bypass and heavier gauge wiring? Is there a link to a diagram of that rewiring somewhere?

[guzzisteve]

What you want to check is the voltage drop at the spade connector on solenoid from 12V down to ? when you hit start button.

[pehayes]

First, does this bike version have the "autostart" feature?  As in  you don't need to hold the starter button.  You just press once and the starter continues to crank for about 5 seconds.  Maybe you never tried letting go of the button?  If you have autostart, it is likely that the ECU is killing the signal to the solenoid.  So measuring at the spade won't tell you much.

Second, if you get a loud CLUNK then there is nothing wrong with your starter relay or circuit.  It always helps to add the Startus Interruptus fix (even a roll-yer-own version).  But that isn't likely to fix the CLUNK.

Third, there are huge contacts within the solenoid itself.  As the solenoid pulls the pinion gear forward into the ring gear, it also connects the huge contacts in the back wall of the solenoid. Older units could be disassembled and cleaned/corrected.  Not sure if your new one can.

Several of us  have approached this problem by completely bypassing the bike's starter circuitry.  Momentary bypass switch.  Worth your time to read through the entire report (started as Norge but morphed to Breva).  Start here and it goes on for four pages:  https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=117948.0

Please report back.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

I sanded the terminals on the solenoid (which looked OK anyway) and used dielectric grease.

Dielectric grease on an arcing contact. 
Sounds like the starter is bad, and now it likely is.

Check the voltage at the battery terminal and ground, AT THE STARTER, when you press the starter button and get the clunk.

[ediehl]

When I previously removed the solenoid from the starter, my intent was to disassemble and try cleaning the contacts. But I was not seeing how the solenoid could be disassembled. After I reassembled it, it begun working properly, for a while. Can the solenoid be purchased independently of the starter?

I think the NTX does have the autostart feature, but I can't honestly say that I'm sure of that (got a bunch of bikes  )

I saw from another post that there are 2 relays involved---startup and startup maintenance. I was wondering if maybe the relay that initiates the gear extension was OK, but the one that then kept the starter turning was weak. But I don't even know if that's how it's supposed to work.

From my previous attempts I seem to remember being puzzled that the voltage at one of the solenoid posts was only something like 8V, but I need to reassess that.

I'll go read through that referenced thread thread on the subject. Thanks!

[fotoguzzi]

I'll go read through that referenced thread thread on the subject. Thanks!

that will be a good start and don’t buy anything like a starter or solenoid until you’ve gone through the steps in that thread.

[LaGrasta]

It always helps to add the Startus Interruptus fix (even a roll-yer-own version)

I recently brought back to the road a 2003 V11, runs fantastic now! Does the starter interuptous problem apply to this model, and if so, can you share the roll-yer-own version please?

[guzzisteve]

The V-11 not so much, it has no feed to the ECU from start switch.

[LaGrasta]

thanks @guzzsteve
I've never experienced this problem, but thought I'd avoid it if needed. I'll leave it as-is.

[Wayne Orwig]

Video with GOOD SOUND, near the starter when it fails.

It sounds like you are implying that the solenoid CLUNKS (pulls in) and stays, but the starter is not spinning.
That is not the 'startus interuptus' issue.
On the Valeo starter years back, that was often a sign of the magnets coming loose inside the starter. Old problem though. Or as you mentioned, bad solenoid contacts.

You could measure (use a 12 volt bulb) between the two large posts on the solenoid. If you get the loud CLUNK and the light stays on (12V), it is the solenoid contacts not passing power to the starter.

[ediehl]

So I did read and reread that thread referenced above, as well as some others. The bottom line is:

When I press the starter button, I get a loud CLUNK from the starter, and the instruments go through their resetting sequence.

If I touch a lead from the positive battery terminal to the small spade connector on the solenoid, it starts with no hesitation (though it's a beeyatch getting a hot probe back to that spade, in the dark, without touching other metal bits).

If I take the starter off but leave all connections in place, and use a jumper cable to ground the case of the starter to the frame, when I press the starter button the pinion gear extends and spins, appearing to work normally.

I wondered if maybe, like with a couple Buells I have, the ground was the problem, and so I clamped a battery ground strap between one of the starter mounting bolts and the battery negative terminal. Still just a loud CLUNK.

Argghhh! I've got  a couple new relays on order and so I'll replace those, and look for any other connections that I might clean and spray with contact cleaner. I haven't yet started looking for the ECU, I suppose I'll probably have to remove the fuel tank for that.

If all else fails I guess I'll need to just bypass the starter button and install a fused, weatherproof button directly between the battery positive terminal and that small spade connector on the solenoid.

Did I mention ARRGGGHHH?   

[ediehl]

Can an NTX solenoid be purchased separate from the starter? But I guess it doesn't make sense to suspect the solenoid, if it works when voltage is applied directly to it.

[fotoguzzi]

Your description sound exactly like the problem explained very well by Mr Hayes in the Norge/Breva no start thread.
In the end the best fix is to put in an auxiliary start button. I wired mine to only activate when the key is on. Still looking to move switch to a more hidden location.

[guzzisteve]

Starter is a Chinese Bosch, it has a tag. I replaced one w/Valeo. Solenoid stuck out on that one, killed battery. BUT if you hit the spade & it goes normal it's OK Strait wire to Batt 12V it cranks & no fail it's good.
That goes back to jump around to the cut yellow wire to 12V w/fuse wire.

Well as in Foto's Norge that wouldn't even work ALL the time

I have mounted many hotwire buttons since 76, I have a bag of Caterpillar sealed ones, big & ugly.

The ECU is on LH side next to fuel lank mounted on fairing bracket, should have a rubber boot on it. Relays are on RH same place.

[ediehl]

What's the best local source for a hotwire button? I've got Harbor Freight, Tractor Supply, Lowes, HomeDepot, Ace, Walmart, etc. pretty nearby.

[fotoguzzi]

you want a momentary switch. tractor supply has one,
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/cambridge-push-button-momentary-switch-20a-12v-dc-240w?cm_vc=-10005

[pehayes]

I used this one off of Amazon.  The wires seem pretty small gauge.  But it is rarely used and then only momentary.  Time will tell for durability.  They come in a group  package.  I'll send you one if you PM your postal address.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JHW8BPV?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

When I press the starter button, I get a loud CLUNK from the starter, and the instruments go through their resetting sequence.

So you are getting a huge voltage drop when the starter kicks in, causing the instruments (and starter signal) to drop out.
An o-scope would be a great thing to have. But.....
Get out your car jumper cables. Jumper from the battery ground post to the engine block to make sure the ground is good, then try it.
Try to jumper from the battery positive to the starter positive post and try that.
Try jumpering your car battery to the bike. (it could just be the battery).
If the starter has a loose magnet or some shorted windings, the inrush current may just be too much for the battery.

[pehayes]

Get out your car jumper cables. Jumper from the battery ground post to the engine block to make sure the ground is good, then try it.

Wayne:  I tried that parallel grounding when I was fighting the clunk issue in the B11.  No help.

I don't have an oscilloscope and agree that would be nice.  I used both analog and digital VOMs to measure voltage at the solenoid spade.  I would get a quick spike to accompany the clunk and then instantly drop to zero.  Didn't matter if you continued to hold the handlebar button.  Hence my interpretation that with the "autostart" models, the starter signal passes through the ECU and somehow that signal is being interrupted.  Exact same battery repeatedly works perfectly fine to crank if I short from +ve to the solenoid spade.  Somehow the ECU seems to sense significant voltage drops and interrupts the starter signal.  There are numerous connection points in the circuit and they all degrade with age.  Eventually the sum of sequential resist points adds up to force the ECU interrupt.  Not sure what operational advantage that provides for the moto.  Not sure if it would be possible to locate and alter the 'minimum voltage' spec in the software and flash in a lower limit to offset the chronic degradation.

Meanwhile, the momentary button bypass button solves the problem (at least to get  you going down the road).  BTW, using the momentary bypass occasionally sets of a red triangle at the dash.  An off/on power recycle corrects that.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[ediehl]

I went ahead and removed the side panels, and cleaned the contacts on the relays and sprayed contact cleaner and reassembled. And it worked! A couple of times. It now seems intermittent. Since I've already ordered new relays I'l wait and install those; fingers crossed. If it's still iffy after that I'll install the momentary button as a backup.

[ediehl]

So, my Stelvio developed the issue whereby the starter button would produce no more than a loud CLUNK at the starter, and the the ECU would reset everything. After much fiddling I found that 12V applied directly from the battery to the trigger spade on the starter solenoid would fire the bike right up.

After a lot of research on the wildguzzi forum I learned that the general consensus in this set of circumstances seemed to be that because of something like deteriorating electrical connections, the ECU would decide that the voltage as too low, even with a new battery, and it would not continue to supply power to the solenoid.

I ordered new starter relays. Curiously, there are two: the Starter Startup and the Starter Maintenance. I haven't found any discussion about what that's all about, and I learned after placing my order that the 2 are not the same relay. I also bought a momentary start push button that I intended to install, to bypass the starter button altogether.

So yesterday, as I sat awaiting delivery of the new relays (I'd only be able to replace the Starter Startup piece), I decided to mess with the  connections some more, since I had just received a can of DeoxIT D5, which had been praised as a great electrical treatment on the wildguzzi forum. I had already used some CRC electrical cleaner, with enough improvement to make the starter button intermittently successful, instead of always just CLUNK, and I really didn't expect any improvement with the DeoxIT.

But lo and behold, that application seemed to do the trick. She fires right up every time now!

I don't know if this is a permanent solution so I'll put the new relays and bypass button on a shelf in case the symptoms reocccur somewhere down the road, but as of now I've become a staunch advocate of DeoxIT!

[guzzisteve]

Wow, that's cool. One issue w/DeOxit, one member here replied that it ate up the moisture seal on the connection. You may want to clean off the little foam or rubber seal at the plugs.

[Vagrant]

I automatically replace all relays with good 5 prongs. If you have an issue you can just move all forward one hole for testing.
De oxit seems to work better than anything. Ain't cheap but well worth it.

[ediehl]

I did just get another CLUNK (dang it!), and so I suppose I'll replace the startup relay, and install the bypass switch just in case.

[guzzisteve]

I would put the MPH loom in or cut yellow wire and put on a fused hotwire to it which is basically the same as the MPH loom fix.

[ediehl]

I don't think I've seen the MPH Loom fix? And I don't remember a yellow wire at the relay---I guess you're talking about at the switch button?

[gscott]

I don't think I've seen the MPH Loom fix? And I don't remember a yellow wire at the relay---I guess you're talking about at the switch button?

No.  He's talking about at the relay.

[guzzisteve]

Read your wiring diagram, yellow wire (from memory) goes to 15A fuse on fuse panel.
I'd call MPH and get their plug & play loom fix. All documented if you research a bit.

[ediehl]

I just queried MPH; I had not previously realized that was the name of a business. 

[ediehl]

Well, after a new starter relay, liberal application of DeoxIT, and a new ground wire direct from the battery to the topmost ground above the starter (a strand of solid copper from a romex bundle), she now seems to be firing up every time (so far, anyway...). I may not do the bypass switch (yet...).