Do you use 10W-60 oil ?

[kingoffleece]

Yea, I KNOW I should know better.  It was a serious question. 
But, and there is always a but, if one can't take the company at word, why would one take ANY word they give?

Smartypants?  Yikes.  One could call them again and as for further clarification.  Just a thought.  But hey, the my dog is bigger than your dog-always an entertaining call.

[SIR REAL ED]

Yea, I KNOW I should know better.  It was a serious question. 
But, and there is always a but, if one can't take the company at word, why would one take ANY word they give?

Smartypants?  Yikes.  One could call them again and as for further clarification.  Just a thought.  But hey, the my dog is bigger than your dog-always an entertaining call.

Absolutely!!!

"Not only does our oil lubricate better than the other guy's oil, we've added male pheromones to it to attract hot chicks to your bike!"

Years of dealing with vendors has led me to the opinion that salespeople often have little to no technical knowledge about the products they sell.  A few follow up questions usually leads to "Let me talk to someone who has actual knowledge about your product." 

Maybe an engineer or a chemist?

Obviously, in air cooled engines vs water cooled engines, the big difference is engine temperature.  Does that temperature difference translate to oil temperature?  Maybe, maybe not.  Without actually measuring oil temperature under worst conditions, how would anyone know?  Lots of air cooled engines have oil coolers for a reason.

I like Amsoil products a lot, but a quick look at their products list has me smiling ear to ear.  Kinda like listening to a maitre'd describe the wine list.  "This is a happy little wine!  Elegant but not ostentatious!  A perfect after dinner wine for a night like tonight!"

Now in my mid 60's, I'm still waiting to hear the first verifiable story of engine failure due to someone using the "wrong" oil rather than plain old human error.  I suspect I'll go to my grave without hearing the first one.

But in the meantime, oil discussions are virtual campfire fun.  Kinda like fishing stories about "the one that got away!"

[Huzo]

Based to a large degree by what I see on these pages, three quarters of the guys don’t ride their bikes far enough to wear them out, even if they put sand in the engine instead of oil.
Point is, don’t claim some victory by saying…
“I put 15W50 (or something), in my bike from day one and it works for me…” 
It only “works” because you haven’t ridden it far enough to know if you’re treating it badly or not…

[kballowe]

[SIR REAL ED]

Based to a large degree by what I see on these pages, three quarters of the guys don’t ride their bikes far enough to wear them out, even if they put sand in the engine instead of oil.
Point is, don’t claim some victory by saying…
“I put 15W50 (or something), in my bike from day one and it works for me…” 
It only “works” because you haven’t ridden it far enough to know if you’re treating it badly or not…

good point Huzo.

I'd raise your 3/4 to 99.99% of all motorcycle and car owners.

then we would get into the "sticky wicket" territory of what defines "worn out."

Some manufacturers claim claim burning 100ml of oil per 1000 miles is acceptable.  I suspect those engines will never "wear out."

Still waiting for that fabled "oil failure" story.  There's gotta be at least one out there.

[SIR REAL ED]

I might have typed tooooo soon.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifnWe06vHEs

[SIR REAL ED]

the other aspect of erroneous thinking we all fall prey to is assuming the OEM specifies a specific oil to increase engine longevity and reliability.

They might not.  Knowing 99+% of their customers will never wear out an engine, the specification may call for a specific oil for increased fuel efficiency or reduced emissions.

Until you know what the OEM financial incentives are, it is difficult if not impossible to tell.

[kballowe]

I knew a woman that had a 1977 Chevy Monte Carlo.  It got a lot of short trips.  At 12 years, the engine locked up around 78,000 miles.
She never had the oil changed - just added when it was low.

Last year, replaced a clutch on a 2000 Kawasaki 1500.  The oil inside looked like chunks of jello.  The odometer showed 90,xxx miles.

In other news, there's a Gold Wing in our riding group with something nearing 500K miles.  #3 cylinder is down to 70psi.  He changes the oil at 8k with whatever oil change special at the local parts store.  He blames this "premature engine wear" on that el cheapo oil from the parts store.

[Stretch]

All of THAT said, I might go to 15w-60 in the big Cali because my local
guy stocks it for Indians.

I have to special order the other stuff......

                                        -Stretch

[SIR REAL ED]

I knew a woman that had a 1977 Chevy Monte Carlo.  It got a lot of short trips.  At 12 years, the engine locked up around 78,000 miles.
She never had the oil changed - just added when it was low.

Last year, replaced a clutch on a 2000 Kawasaki 1500.  The oil inside looked like chunks of jello.  The odometer showed 90,xxx miles.

In other news, there's a Gold Wing in our riding group with something nearing 500K miles.  #3 cylinder is down to 70psi.  He changes the oil at 8k with whatever oil change special at the local parts store.  He blames this "premature engine wear" on that el cheapo oil from the parts store.

Thanks for posting.  70 psi in one cylinder?  What are the other ones?  If one cylinder is drastically different from the others, I would be very reluctant to blame that on oil.

[Stretch]

I would be very reluctant to blame that on oil.

I dunno - no adequate lube to valve train, valve sticks open a
little, valve burns a little, compression down.

Same scenario with a partial seizure on just one cylinder.

We can all agree that the execution of this lady's maintenance schedule could've been
a wee bit better, eh?

                                                    -Stretch

[SmithSwede]

I think Huzo nailed it.  Most riders will ride their bikes long enough to wear out their tires.  But almost nobody puts on enough miles to come close to wearing out multiple bikes, and thus possibly being able to notice any significant performance difference between various reasonable oil choices.  Maybe some Iron Butt folks.  London dispatch riders.  Texas Turnip. 

Oil discussions about “wear” are really only appropriate to a manager of a full fleet of 18-wheelers, each of which is expected to rack up 750,000 to a million or more miles. 

Nevertheless, lots of guys who have never personally put more than 30,000 miles on a single motorcycle will obsess over preventing wear based on oil selection. 

What I would really like to know is why there is this obsession?  What is the psychological explanation for this? 

I get why the 18-wheeler fleet manager might be obsessed with oil and wear.  And I get it if you are taking about Farmer Brown, who is a cheap bastard still driving his 1954 Ford pick-up truck, has a 1934 tractor in the barn, and hunts deer with his grandfather’s 1876 lever action rifle. 

But why do so many regular riders get obsessed—with less than 7,000 miles on their 5 year old motorcycle while thinking of trading it in on something newer?

[mondtster]

the other aspect of erroneous thinking we all fall prey to is assuming the OEM specifies a specific oil to increase engine longevity and reliability.

They might not.  Knowing 99+% of their customers will never wear out an engine, the specification may call for a specific oil for increased fuel efficiency or reduced emissions.

Until you know what the OEM financial incentives are, it is difficult if not impossible to tell.

I doubt this happens with motorcycles as much as it does with cars, but it absolutely happens in that industry. Some evidence of this can be seen by looking at the recommended engine oil for a specific engine in the US market and comparing it to recommendations for other markets, such as Europe or Japan.

As far as Guzzi specifying 10w60 in the newer motorcycles goes, I've been suspecting that it has to do with the advent of the closed loop EFI systems and catalysts being added. Running in closed loop around stoich will definitely drive the temperatures up, especially on an air cooled engine.

[mondtster]

What I would really like to know is why there is this obsession?  What is the psychological explanation for this?

In my opinion, it mainly is due to emotion. Find someone who doesn't care about a motorcycle, car, piece of equipment, etc. and ask them how often they change their oil or what they put in it. They probably don't know, can't remember, or are totally indifferent on the subject. It's the same reason that every oil discussion on any web board is multiple pages long and there is high risk of it becoming a heated debate.

I've spent hundreds of hours researching oils in an attempt to determine what is best for a specific application. Some applications are fussy on oil but I'd say that most really aren't. In all my years of racing, engine building, and engine engineering at the OEM level I can honestly say that I've never run across a failure that I'd blame the oil for.

[Huzo]

I think because modern oil is so beautifully engineered, you almost cannot get it wrong.
Therefore a lot of guys will try to reinvent the wheel by employing their conventional wisdom and depart from the manufacturers specifications, then when it doesn’t explode in their faces, strut around waving their dog eared copy of the Old Testament above their heads proclaiming in a southern preacher accent, that they have found the path to true lubrication nirvana…..
Honestly, Donald Duck could find an oil for you and you’d be ok.

[mondtster]

I think because modern oil is so beautifully engineered, you almost cannot get it wrong.
Therefore a lot of guys will try to reinvent the wheel by employing their conventional wisdom and depart from the manufacturers specifications, then when it doesn’t explode in their faces, strut around waving their dog eared copy of the Old Testament above their heads proclaiming in a southern preacher accent, that they have found the path to true lubrication nirvana…..
Honestly, Donald Duck could find an oil for you and you’d be ok.

I mostly agree.

Oils are becoming more and more application specific. You can get it wrong and see the results of that decision but it will likely require making a decision to use an oil that doesn't meet the manufacturer's requirements. Two easy examples would be using a car oil in a motorcycle with a wet clutch or using something like an SL rated Euro oil in a direct injected application that calls for SN+ or SP. Seeing virgin oil analysis results and knowing what additives are detrimental for specific applications helps.

But if you get any oil that meets the manufacturer requirements and change it at the specified intervals it is unlikely that there will ever be a failure that could be attributed to the oil choice.

The engine OEM I work for doesn't bother testing various oils; all the tests are conducted on the factory branded oil. That suggests to me that there is little concern over what gets put in the engines as long as it meets the proper API specs.

[SIR REAL ED]

In my opinion, it mainly is due to emotion. Find someone who doesn't care about a motorcycle, car, piece of equipment, etc. and ask them how often they change their oil or what they put in it. They probably don't know, can't remember, or are totally indifferent on the subject. It's the same reason that every oil discussion on any web board is multiple pages long and there is high risk of it becoming a heated debate.

I've spent hundreds of hours researching oils in an attempt to determine what is best for a specific application. Some applications are fussy on oil but I'd say that most really aren't. In all my years of racing, engine building, and engine engineering at the OEM level I can honestly say that I've never run across a failure that I'd blame the oil for.

Amen.  When the oil discussion is not the equivalent two wine snobs having a competition, it is often a proclamation of two enthusiasts professing their love for their significant other.

People anthropomorphize!  "I love my bike more than you so I spend $2 more per quart on oil and cut the oil change interval by 1000 miles compared  you.  My motorcycle will know I'm giving it special care and treat me better than the other motorcycles will treat the owners of the same machine."

Especially true for people with little mechanical skills or knowledge.  They want to do a little more, so they stay in their lane, and pamper their bike in a manner in which they are confident.

You see the same thing with tire pressure and valve clearances.  The spec of 28-32 psi, or .004-.006" isn't good enough, so exactly 30 psi or exactly .005" feels better! 

We often become our own Visiting Angels! 

[SIR REAL ED]

I think because modern oil is so beautifully engineered, you almost cannot get it wrong.
Therefore a lot of guys will try to reinvent the wheel by employing their conventional wisdom and depart from the manufacturers specifications, then when it doesn’t explode in their faces, strut around waving their dog eared copy of the Old Testament above their heads proclaiming in a southern preacher accent, that they have found the path to true lubrication nirvana…..
Honestly, Donald Duck could find an oil for you and you’d be ok.

That's why I ALWAYS store my oil in the basement.  Away from the harmful UV rays of the sun.  it stays fresher that way!

And ALWAYS remember to wipe off the top of the oil can BEFORE you stab your screwdriver thru the top of the can to pour it out!  Could be some unseen dust on the top!!!

if you don't, you're a heathen!

[kballowe]

I know that ya'all are secretly using SuperTech oil from WalMart.

Admission is the first step to recovery.

[hzbloke]

Penrite 15W-60, full synthetic, extra zinc. 2008 Breva 750. It had 13,000km on it when I bought it in 2016 and is about to turn over 100,000km. The engine has never been apart. It uses about 200ml every 1000km. It never gets really, really cold here (and I don't ride when it does) so I figure 10W or 15W makes little difference. And Penrite is made (or at least blended) here in Oz and is owned by Australians.

[Huzo]

Well yes…
Motul 10W60 changed every 10,000 k, 215,000 km engine never apart.
Uses 1 litre per 10,000 km…
Why would you not ?

[SIR REAL ED]

I know that ya'all are secretly using SuperTech oil from WalMart.

Admission is the first step to recovery.

Yeah, but if you mix in 2 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil per quart, it becomes better than every other oil on the Market!

Oh yeah, and 1/4 ounce of Oil of Wintergreen to condition the seals and give it a nice aroma....

[Huzo]

You oil gurus are slippery buggers…

[SIR REAL ED]

Well yes…
Motul 10W60 changed every 10,000 k, 215,000 km engine never apart.
Uses 1 litre per 10,000 km…
Why would you not ?

Technically Huzo, your bike does not have even a single mile on it!

Logically, it should last forever!   

[Huzo]

Technically Huzo, your bike does not have even a single mile on it!

Logically, it should last forever!   

There are times when I’m sure it will and recently in France, I was thinking I may go home without it…!

[mondtster]

I know that ya'all are secretly using SuperTech oil from WalMart.

Admission is the first step to recovery.

Guilty as charged.

[Brand X]

I know that ya'all are secretly using SuperTech oil from WalMart.

Admission is the first step to recovery.

BTW,
there is nothing wrong with the Super tech motorcycle oil made by Warren.. My oil engineer friend use to work at the company that sold Warren their additive package. Said they don't short change the additives they put in their oil.. I am going to use it in my new to me Kawasaki tomorrow. 10w40 MA2 package.. Generally Motul 300v/7100, Maxima Extra 4t,and Castrol Power 1 4t  and the like quality. If the Kawasaki keeps shifting good I will run the Supertech without loosing any sleep at all..Some oils hold up longer than others, and with a shared gearbox, some shift a little different that each other too..

[SIR REAL ED]

You mean the fork oil in my 1979 XS1100 with 130K miles should be changed?!?!?!?!! (not gonna mention the Guzzis's but I have never changed fork oil unless it needed seals)...... I know, I am an abuser.

I thought about this post while changing fork oil today.

Bulldog9, promise us that if you ever do change the fork oil in your XS1100 you will record it on video or with pictures.

Draining the fork oil, the first few ounces was a crystal clear light green.  Must be the previous owner changed the fork oil recently and used Bel-Ray fork oil I thought.  The next few ounces the oil looked a bit murky and the last few ounces looked like brand new good ole Kal-Gard fork oil loaded with Moly.

Two flushes with Kerosene (Off Road Diesel fuel actually) and the existing diesel fuel looked almost clean.  One more flush should do it.

The bike had the little drain screws at the bottom of the fork leg, but hey, that's not how the pro's do it!
 

[dguzzi]

  I thought we could use that miracle stuff and just run with no oil? 
  That seemed to go away somehow....

[lazlokovacs]

Ok... I'll play...

10w60 for the griso yes

for my 1100cali vintage engined sportbike running carbs 10w60 is a definite maybe.

I think that was my first ever oil post after nearly 15 years on WG!!!!