U/J Carrier bearing collapse

[izzug otom]

Like I said, powdercoat. My snowflake wheels were done with it and after a good few years it started to flake in a similar way to your photo. The corrosion gets under it and then it separates the two.And it's a real bugger to get off  where it's still holding on too !!

Yes, thanks Frenchfrog, I see it now. I still think it's a peculiar thing to do to the inside of  wheel, but Guzzi's are a quirky make, A quirkiness I mostly adore it must be said.

I didn't attempt to pull it all off, but it seemed to be peeling/falling off really easily, such is the corrosion underneath. I'm not fussed if there are a few stubborn bits left though, it's all out of sight.

I'll start looking up alloy corrosion prevention, I can't imagine it's a good thing to have all that dust being flung about near the drive teeth and wheel bearing etc. Wire brush and some hardcore Hammerite perhaps.

[dguzzi]

Time to pull out used tooth brushes you saved for no reason.
   Exactly!!  And you can heat and form them for 'special' applications!

[izzug otom]

Sorry for the delay here guys, I was ill for a couple of days, so never got to the engineers, and then it was the bank holiday weekend in the UK, so I opted for the dremel tool to remove offending bearing races.

One of the biggest problems was that the carrier bearing circlip was seized in place, or so I thought, then I realised that after the bearing collapse, the u/j had been rubbing/hammering against the lip that retains the clip, thus hammering it tight to the circlip. What a pig of a job to remove that was.




 I'd given the gnarled edge a light run over on the edge of the retaining groove with the dremel tool grinding disc, in the hopes of freeing up the jammed state, but it was hard to get onto accurately.

I can't say it made any difference, but I managed to use a small gemmy bar and a hagon shock adjuster that I have welded to a bar of iron. Used the hook of the shock adjuster to pull the clip up and kept as much pressure on it as I could, giving enough to get the gemmy behind to give it a good jolt, making it give a little each time. The further I got around the tighter it became, but kept going at it until eventually, after a lot of grunting, I managed to pry it free.

 I'll make sure the groove will accept the new circlip prior to fitting the new carrier bearing. It'll probably need a little grinding out with the dremel tool to correct the damage caused from the hammering it received.




You can see in the next photo, what should be the roughly square shoulder of the lip that retains the circlip has been hammered down to a chamfered slope.




I tried the bbq method of heating the inner race and u/j (it's ok I'm going to be replacing the u/j crosses of course), but this didn't help any, as far as using the bearing pullers.




However, my new dremel (like) tool arrived, and it ,made light work of the inner race.




I manage to score the u/j, twice doh! (don't ask ) But this won't affect functionality, and I'll use some Loctite to fill out to avoid corrosion setting in at these points.

However, trying to cut the outer race free from the swing arm housing is proving exceptionally difficult. I've spent 3 hours with the dremel , but even with the flexible extension, the cut has to be a long diagonal cut, and even then it's difficult not to have some curvature, which has meant many disintegrated cutting discs.




I've been using a small dental mirror to keep an eye on the depth of the cut, still not easy, but trying to be careful not to cut deeper than is necessary.

I'm going to have another attempt just now. I'll make a cut in the opposite direction, crossing the first cut, and see if that'll allow a section to be knocked out.

I have zero experience with such a task though, and making it up as I go along, so if anyone has any helpful tips on this, it'd be very much appreciated 

[izzug otom]

And you can heat and form them for 'special' applications!

Perhaps not a good idea with mine, as they're electric brushes and have built in batteries 

[dguzzi]

  Yeah, best not heat the electric ones.  As for bearing races I've had good results using the dremel only to form a notch, then a sharp smack with a chisel to crack the race. Then they tap out easy or fall out in pieces.

[izzug otom]

   As for bearing races I've had good results using the dremel only to form a notch, then a sharp smack with a chisel to crack the race. Then they tap out easy or fall out in pieces.

Youch!! Hitting the chisel, well supposed to be 




And still stuck fast. A fragment came out, circled red. Perhaps I should start the other side with just a notch as you suggest mate

[izzug otom]

As for bearing races I've had good results using the dremel only to form a notch, then a sharp smack with a chisel to crack the race. Then they tap out easy or fall out in pieces.

Have you had success with the small but nightmarish swing arm bearings with this method, per chance Dguzzi?

[Tom H]

Ouch!!

Good work with the dremel so far.

For my R75/5, I had to make a few angled cuts close together, then try to crack out the bit between the cuts. A lot of patience is required.

Tom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Have you had success with the small but nightmarish swing arm bearings with this method, per chance Dguzzi?

My tool of choice for those is a blind hole bearing puller. The largest collet is just right.

[izzug otom]

Ouch!!

Good work with the dremel so far.

For my R75/5, I had to make a few angled cuts close together, then try to crack out the bit between the cuts. A lot of patience is required.

Tom

Thanks Tom, I'll see where I get to tmro 

[izzug otom]

My tool of choice for those is a blind hole bearing puller. The largest collet is just right.

Is that with no heat being used Charlie?

I've read of some people having extreme difficulty in shifting them, like this from the V11LeMans forum

"so this was the procedure...

1. 2lb slide hammer, no joy...

2. 4lb slide hammer, still no joy...

3. 4lb slide hammer with blow torch....nope!

4. weld a plate with an eye bolt on each bearing....hydrauli c puller on it..... no chance!

5. grind the buggers into tiny little bits...success!

6. powder coat the swing arm due to damage caused during stage 3."

... And I was thinking that skipping parts 1 - 4 + 6, would save me some energy, time and the price of a blind puller set, which I may not have the need for again. 

Ps ... I'm sorry Charlie, I meant to say, I didn't want to dismantle the u/joint until I'd got the bearing race off so hadn't measured the crosses.

The new ones arrived from Germany, and blow me, but my vernier gauge dial has seized up  , but as far as I can tell, they look to be 50.2, or very slightly under. They're supposed to be the ones used by Guzzi though, so we'll see.

I may get around to dismantling them tmro, and when I do I'll measure side by side.

Cheers, Martin

[Tom H]

If you ever have to take a complete carrier bearing out. I found that a steel rod of about 4'/1.3m long that just fits down the swing arm gets the job done with a few stout jabs downward with the U joint area firmly on a cement slab.

Tom

[izzug otom]

If you ever have to take a complete carrier bearing out. I found that a steel rod of about 4'/1.3m long that just fits down the swing arm gets the job done with a few stout jabs downward with the U joint area firmly on a cement slab.

Tom

I'll be honest, I hope I never have to, but you never do know, so it's noted thank you. That is some big chunk of steel you're talking there though, no?

[Stretch]

What a pig of a job........

Yep.

Kudos for keeping on. I'm sure you can't wait until it's
back on the road and running like a top!

                                    -Stretch

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Is that with no heat being used Charlie?

No heat used to remove the swingarm pivot bearings (or u-joint carrier bearing either, for that matter). I've only done Loopframe and early Tonti-frame Guzzis though.

[Mike Tashjian]

Some jobs are just a pain and that finger took a nasty hit.  Good that your staying with it. Carbide burrs can cut into that race too and you should be able to find them for the Demel.   Otherwise,  I would consider pulling that swingarm to get a better shot at it.  I like the ideas mentioned and working with the swingarm in hand just looks a better way to go.  I know many people will weld a few beads across the inside of the race and that shrinks the race a bit to release easier.  Easier to find a welder with part in hand.   

[izzug otom]

Yep.

Kudos for keeping on. I'm sure you can't wait until it's
back on the road and running like a top!

                                    -Stretch

Thanks for the encouragement Stretch.

Yep, I'm really missing my ride soooooo much, I'm also reliant on my Guzzi to visit my parents who are both in their 90's and live 40 miles away 

No heat used to remove the swingarm pivot bearings (or u-joint carrier bearing either, for that matter). I've only done Loopframe and early Tonti-frame Guzzis though.

Ah cool. As far as I can see they use the same bearings as my '95 Cali.

On which point ,.. Is there an special spec to the swing arm bearings Charlie?

I gather it's a tapered roller bearing, original spec being 17mm i/d, 40mm o/d x 12mm depth, but on Gregory Bender's 'this old tractor' site he says ...

"The following physical dimensions are slightly thicker, but work just fine and are much easier to source than the original (thanks to Fred on the old Yahoo! Loopframe_Guzzi news group (which has now moved to Groups.io) for confirming the fitment).

Inside diameter: 17 mm
Outside diameter: 40 mm
Width: 13.25 mm.."

Which works out as SKF 30203j2

Do you know if this means the spacers on the outside of the swing arm bearings have to be thinned by 1.25mm to accommodate the wider bearing?

Or is there a simpler answer? I've seen prices for swing arm bearings ranging from nearly £90 each to just £15 for SKF versions, which i find very confusing

Oh, I've just found a 9 piece slide hammer bearing puller kit second hand for £15 

I would consider pulling that swingarm to get a better shot at it.  I know many people will weld a few beads across the inside of the race and that shrinks the race a bit to release easier.   

Yes, if I had a welder that's exactly what I'd do. The swing arm is already pulled, it'd be literally impossible to do what I'm doing with it still attached to the bike.

.......

I got a chunk of the bearing out  , then ran out of cut off discs, better quality ones arriving today.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

On which point ,.. Is there an special spec to the swing arm bearings Charlie?

I gather it's a tapered roller bearing, original spec being 17mm i/d, 40mm o/d x 12mm depth, but on Gregory Bender's 'this old tractor' site he says ...

"The following physical dimensions are slightly thicker, but work just fine and are much easier to source than the original (thanks to Fred on the old Yahoo! Loopframe_Guzzi news group (which has now moved to Groups.io) for confirming the fitment).

Inside diameter: 17 mm
Outside diameter: 40 mm
Width: 13.25 mm.."

Which works out as SKF 30203j2

Do you know if this means the spacers on the outside of the swing arm bearings have to be thinned by 1.25mm to accommodate the wider bearing?

Or is there a simpler answer? I've seen prices for swing arm bearings ranging from nearly £90 each to just £15 for SKF versions, which i find very confusing

I use the 30203 bearings without any modifications or issues. The pivot pins just won't thread in quite as much (barely noticeable).

[izzug otom]

I use the 30303 bearings without any modifications or issues. The pivot pins just won't thread in quite as much (barely noticeable).

Ah fantastic, thanks for clearing that up.

Also, if I may, as it's an unsealed bearing, I'll need to replace the seals 30mm i/d x 40mm o/d x 7mm thickness. I see cheap ones, although listed as high quality at £2.50, and SKF seals of the same spec at £6.50

The main question I have though, is that they come in both single, or double, lip construction. Is there a preference in our particular application? . . . And do forgive my ignorance, but what stops the grease from leaking from the internal side of the s/arm bearings?

Having been intrigued, I realise now, when you said you've only done loop and early tonti's, that the v11 uses a different bearing arrangement altogether for the swing arm 

I'll try the conventional slide hammer puller rather than having at it with the dremel'ish tool 

I'm just wondering if I can find a second hand bearing press kit going cheap now (strokes chin) 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Ah fantastic, thanks for clearing that up.

Also, if I may, as it's an unsealed bearing, I'll need to replace the seals 30mm i/d x 40mm o/d x 7mm thickness. I see cheap ones, although listed as high quality at £2.50, and SKF seals of the same spec at £6.50

The main question I have though, is that they come in both single, or double, lip construction. Is there a preference in our particular application? . . . And do forgive my ignorance, but what stops the grease from leaking from the internal side of the s/arm bearings?

Having been intrigued, I realise now, when you said you've only done loop and early tonti's, that the v11 uses a different bearing arrangement altogether for the swing arm 

I'll try the conventional slide hammer puller rather than having at it with the dremel'ish tool 

I'm just wondering if I can find a second hand bearing press kit going cheap now (strokes chin) 

Corrected my bearing number 30203, not 30303. The seals aren't under any pressure, so even the cheap seals will do the job. Single lip seals are all that's necessary. I do like to polish the o.d. of the spacer they seal on, so it's clean and shiny.

On the driveshaft side, the back/internal side is blanked off by the round section the u/j runs inside. On the left side it's open into the crossmember of the swingarm (although that too ends at the round section the u/j runs inside of), so a little extra grease isn't a bad idea. I spray the inside of that tube with a little chain lube to ward off rust.

AFAIK, the 1100s use the same bearing arrangement as the earlier models.

[izzug otom]

Corrected my bearing number 30203, not 30303. The seals aren't under any pressure, so even the cheap seals will do the job. Single lip seals are all that's necessary. I do like to polish the o.d. of the spacer they seal on, so it's clean and shiny.

On the driveshaft side, the back/internal side is blanked off by the round section the u/j runs inside. On the left side it's open into the crossmember of the swingarm (although that too ends at the round section the u/j runs inside of), so a little extra grease isn't a bad idea. I spray the inside of that tube with a little chain lube to ward off rust.

AFAIK, the 1100s use the same bearing arrangement as the earlier models.

Yes, I got the number thing ok 

Cool re seals. . . . There's no price difference between price on single or double lip seals, they do both versions in the cheaper and more expensive versions, I perhaps didn't make that clear.

You know, that's one thing I noticed, the inside mating surface of the spacers on both sides were remarkably clean and shiny. I wonder if I'm the second owner to take your good advice  . . . It would have been a while ago, I've had my bike 9yrs now.

That makes sense on lubing up the swing arm blind tube, I'll follow up with that.

Whilst on lube, the splines on the drive train, I noticed you were impressed with a Wurst, I think, grease, but it doesn't seem to be available now, least not in the UK. I've come across some Castrol optimol white grease, that seems to be recommended for the BM's spline greasing, am I correct to assume that'll be suffice for mine?

And would you happen to be familiar with the internal/external diameters of the tube required to make a makeshift tool to hold the U/J in a straight line when pressing into the carrier bearing? I saw it somewhere and can't for the life of me find it again.

I got some good quality cut off discs, and beginning to realise, that despite how impressed I was as a novice with the cheap ones that came with the tool, that they're really pretty poor. So hopefully I'll finally get the rest of that sodding carrier bearing removed today.

I was thinking I might need to get the new carrier bearing pressed in at a shop, as I've had no joy finding a cheap second hand bargain bearing press kit 

Thanks for enduring the saga of my rear end, so to speak  , and for the tips and technical specs etc, it's very much appreciated.

Cheer, Martin 

[chuck peterson]

Your quickly shedding your novice standing into expertise by entering the fight with only sheer determination on your side…

Go man, go! I’m pulling for you!

 

[izzug otom]

Your quickly shedding your novice standing into expertise by entering the fight with only sheer determination on your side…

Go man, go! I’m pulling for you!

 

Ah man, thank you, that's so good to hear 

I swung from feeling confident that I'm getting the hang of tackling what seemed like the impossible, to a couple of occasions where I felt quite demoralised and a bit useless tbh. However, when I got to feeling that, I had words with myself and quickly got my thinking back on track.

I feel confident that if it can be done, then I will get it done, but only due to some exemplary assistance and encouragement on this thread.

The determination, or gumption as brilliantly described in one of my favourite passages from Robert M Pirsig's book Zen, And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance, relating to it as the vital ingredient in motorcycle repairs and maintenance. ... Of course, there is a lot to be said for such gumption working in a good well equipped workshop    But sometimes you're on the roadside, or in my case, my back yard.

“If you’re going to repair a motorcycle, an adequate supply of gumption is the first and most important tool. If you haven’t got that you might as well gather up all the other tools and put them away, because they won’t do you any good.

Gumption is the psychic gasoline that keeps the whole thing going. If you haven’t got it, there’s no way the motorcycle can possibly be fixed. But if you have got it and know how to keep it, there’s absolutely no way in this whole world that motorcycle can keep from getting fixed. It’s bound to happen. Therefore the thing that must be monitored at all times and preserved before anything else is the gumption.”

I love that little book, little gems of philosophy applied to motorcycle maintenance and life in general. A brilliant idea for a book, exceedingly well written. I'm sure many of you know it well 

 

 

[Tom H]

For installing the carrier bearing.....

A steel tube of the correct size for the OD of the carrier bearing and a good size hammer would be optimal.  Lacking that, a suitable block of wood or metal to EVENLY drive the bearing down until flush with the recess would be a big help. Then take a metal punch, not a little center punch like punch, but something with a decent tip on it. Or even a steel rod about 1/2" diameter to drive the edge of the bearing fully down so that the clip will fit into it's slot. Tap the bearing once or twice at 12 O'clock, then 6, then 3, then 9. Repeat as needed.

Wurth 5th Wheel Grease was the choice for spline lube. Especially for the wheel to rear end splines where you don't want it to fling off.  For the U joint and drive shaft to rear end, you can use any decent thick grease. If you can get a spline grease for BMW at a reasonable price, that would be nice to use. I think Lucas Red and Sticky was also recommended?

Keep at it!!!!!
Tom

[izzug otom]

No laughing now, the outer race is still in the swing arm, and that's after a good few hours.

However, progress was made. That bearing has taken so much effort to break it up. I'd made so many cuts with a much better quality dremel cutting disc, and using chisels, all I managed to do, I think is ram the race firmer in place.

To be fair, I was a bit wary of hitting the chisel too hard due to whacking my thumb the other day, and again today, but not so badly. The chisels I have are a bit short so it means whacking it whilst holding the chisel literally in the opening, I'd have been better if it was 12 inches (she said), with a hand guard, lol.

Anyway, yes progress 

It was after midnight when I finally got the bearing to shift a bit, and a chunk where I must have made a thousand cuts, broke off under the pressure of a pry bar, claws behind, pulling towards myself. The race can be moved back and forth, and all that's holding the race from being pulled out, is the lip that holds the circlip in, in the main area where it's been remoulded by the flailing U/J, flattening it out to where it's become wider, so it's now doing the job of the circlip and retaining the bearing. I've marked the area in the photo.





I knew I was going to have to somehow re-groove the circlip slot, that was a nightmare to remove, or at least I thought it was a nightmare, until I tackled this carrier bearing 

It was too late after midnight to get the dremel going again, people sleeping etc, so today, I'll grind back the circlip retaining lip just enough so that the bearing race FINALLY pops out.
 
I really can't imagine a tougher job, considering my lack of workshop and tools of choice, working with something so stubborn, so deeply recessed. I found it hard to see what I was doing in there, sparks flying, and despite employing a dental mirror, much of the cutting had to be done by feeling your tool in the correct groove, like teenagers fumbling in the dark for the first time  , and although it's probably not quite as exciting, it probably balances out in sense of achievement hahaha 

I now have aches and pains where I'm not used to such sensations, hands, wrists, neck etc  , but hopefully, that'll be the harsh side of this repair work finished.

Apart from the swing arm bearings and seals, which will hopefully arrive on Tuesday, I have all I need to complete the job.

You can probably see, I made quite a mess of the swing arm's mating surface for the bearing, where I was cutting away thinking I couldn't be deep enough, as I couldn't figure out why the cuts were not helping. I'm a bit disappointed with myself because of this, but it's all a part of learning I guess.





It'll need a bit of tidying up, but hopefully it won't affect the  bearing's hold in its seat. I'll use some bearing goo to fill the grooves.

So anyway, the bearing will be removed today, for certain, and the second hand blind hole slide hammer puller kit arrived yesterday, so all being well I'll remove the swing arm, and rear wheel bearings today too.

......

For installing the carrier bearing.....

Keep at it!!!!!
Tom

That's great, thanks Tom.

I've been hunting around for something suitable to use to press the carrier bearing home, the best I've come up with so far, is a a metal grinder, not the workshop tool type, it is the perfect size. The pipe for the u/j though, I'll have to get my thinking cap on 

Yeah the castrol optimol white paste varies in price from around £18 per 100ml tube, down to £8 for 3x 100ml tubes 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325765520906?hash=item4bd9235e0a:g:XyUAAOSwJcNk0p~8&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4F5lxxnBH%2BAKnanLJsik%2F2K9%2Bgdj7lJTH6RH15k7SZwflM5aP949TbBvHdVTZhgiB7z8Nhxq7uo7Tog%2BHPJZQ2r%2FHe%2FN9dfYvUHu5c2c7xbcnzW0B3uTsjlcu0e8t0KH1c8fBNo9Tcs8LUi3fVCoa3sad%2FxmkXZ79XAdeYSYQV8NMT9HQJiuvi6XB0CxJZoW62zKekFTB%2Fyg19IUMupHclW5dO4LgBGxIRznGepgJiY3i9C59b5WJ7iJ554MiumHkHqMUdiujKfuJni1%2Bxu%2BHIu%2BS29XV5pr35SwPkD1%2F%2F1s%7Ctkp%3ABFBMwtyzwMti

Right oh, I'm off to remove this bearing race 

[tris]

Check your sockets IO.
One of them will be a suitable diameter if you have your lucky pants on

[izzug otom]

Check your sockets IO.
One of them will be a suitable diameter if you have your lucky pants on

Thanks Tris, but darn it, my lucky pants are in the wash 

I don't have any sockets big enough to press the swing arm, or wheel bearings, never mind for the 62mm O/D carrier bearing.
The only time I've used sockets that size was when I worked on a farm for a few years in my late teens/early 20's.
I wonder if a local garage/engineering firm might have something I can borrow, if I leave a deposit with them . . . . Mmmm? 

[izzug otom]

As they say, "every picture tells a story"    

[Tom H]

 

Tom

[izzug otom]

I always plan out what I'm going to do, think it through, and despite, or perhaps because, my mechanical skills leave a bit to
 be desired, I try and think of any pitfalls that might occur.

So I always check out the exploded view diagrams of anything I'm dealing with, and then if anything is confusing me, I can look into it,
ask questions etc. . . . Well one can try, and it's definitely a good approach for anyone like me who doesn't already have a deep
understanding. However, it ain't foolproof 

Thanks to Charlie for making me consider the blind hole slide hammer bearing puller. What a great tool it is, and even for the new
 asking price of £25- £30 it's a bargain, and to find one used but perfect condition for £15, better still.

So I pulled the first swing arm roller bearing, the drive shaft side. A few taps to free it and a few more to drive it out of the blind hole,
well that was worth £15 on its own.

Ah but then .... The other side, having first removed the oil seal and inner race and rollers, I inserted the collet, screwed on the slide hammer,
and began whacking away, expecting the same result.

No way, it just wouldn't budge at all. That's strange I thought to myself, and kept whacking some more, and some more, and some more. I rapped
my knuckle on the slide hammer's T-handle, which confirmed to me in an instant that I was whacking it hard enough 

I kept checking the depth of the bearing from above, I thought I'd felt it give a bit, but sure enough, it wasn't being forced out of its hole at all,
staying exactly where it was.




Time to sit and ponder this, partly cos I was knackered, and partly because something just didn't feel right somehow. It didn't look like it had
suffered from corrosion, and I couldn't figure it out.

So I sat down for a different perspective, and man, that's just what I got, wtf?




"Hey, referee!", the exploded diagram did not show that there's a pressed in sleeve on the disc brake side of the swing arm, that seats the
 bearing 

One question I have is as to whether this is standard from manufacture, or is it the result of a previous repair?

Either way, I figure I've tightened the collet too far into the blind hole, and grabbed the rear of the sleeve, and as a result, put zero pressure
 on the bearing, and instead I was pulling the frickin' frame apart. . . . However, if that ain't a testament to the ability of the slide hammer blind hole
 puller, I don't know what is 

One thing I noticed, is that the outer edge of this sleeve looks quite battered and bruised, it's not something I've done (for once  ),
and wondering how that might have come to be? . . . Maybe someone has done the same in the past, and been rough reinserting it? . . .
Or is this a result of riding over time with damaged bearings. It looks as if there are markings not just on the outer edge, but on the inside of
 the recess too.




I'd have thought, as it's not shown in the exploded diagram of the swing arm, that if this was a standard Guzzi fitment, it'd be tack welded
 in place, but it clearly isn't, and I guess it's not something that could work free under normal riding conditions, being trapped in by the swing arm.

I'll pop a piece of wood over the top and see about whacking it back in, and relocating the collet in the correct place, and try again.

Any ideas, or answers to my puzzlement?

Cheers, Martizzug