Chineeze V85TT Copy

[Tom H]

I was giving all this some thought about Guzzi having parts made in China.

Let's just say I walk into a Guzzi dealer. I like a bike they have. So I do my research on it. I find that 75-100% parts are made in china and assembled in China. This bike will cost $10,000 from Guzzi.

So while I'm doing my research, I find the exact same bike with a China brand on it for $6,000.

So which would I buy. The Guzzi one at a higher price because I want to support Guzzi. Or get the same bike for less since Guzzi is having them made in China.

I would prefer to buy the Guzzi made in Italy, not China. But since they are coming out of the same factory in China. Money does matter.

If it is true as written here that if you have a item and have it made in China, you give up all rights to that item. They can make and sell them as they wish.

Then maybe Companies should not have their parts or complete product made in China.

Tom

[jacksonracingcomau]

German article with much more images:
https://www.motorradonline.de/enduro/changjiang-v-750-deffender-gespann-guzzi/

Thanks for that, the plot thickens, Piaggio will announce soon if it is collaboration under licence, like ktm 790 parallel twins, the “copies” are simply the old model under license. These possibly v7/3 motors ?
Shame about the bloody chair, gets in the way of photos, text says they’re using a 5 speed but I can’t see if it is the classic Tonti designed case and box. Could be a new life of parts if it is. Even better if it marries up to late model 2 UJ drive shaft.
Definitely a civilian model though, sidecar wheel is not driven, real chair men have to put up with new old boxers for a while longer it seems. Although the wartime Zundapp KS750 was actually a v twin !

[guzzisteve]

I do know it's been 5 yrs that they been making parts for Guzzi internal engine parts.

[SIR REAL ED]

I was giving all this some thought about Guzzi having parts made in China.

Let's just say I walk into a Guzzi dealer. I like a bike they have. So I do my research on it. I find that 75-100% parts are made in china and assembled in China. This bike will cost $10,000 from Guzzi.

So while I'm doing my research, I find the exact same bike with a China brand on it for $6,000.

So which would I buy. The Guzzi one at a higher price because I want to support Guzzi. Or get the same bike for less since Guzzi is having them made in China.

I would prefer to buy the Guzzi made in Italy, not China. But since they are coming out of the same factory in China. Money does matter.

If it is true as written here that if you have a item and have it made in China, you give up all rights to that item. They can make and sell them as they wish.

Then maybe Companies should not have their parts or complete product made in China.

Tom

THERE OUGHTA BE A LAW!!!!

If food producers have to list the amount of protein, carbs, fat, and sugar in their products, then ALL manufacturers should have to list part content by nation of manufacture.

That might stop a lot of posturing when potential buyers realize there may or may not be much difference between the supposedly Italian, German, Austrian, English, Indian, American, Japanese, etc. __________ manufacturers and the cloned machines.

If the genuine article is 40% Chinese, and the Chinese clone is 80%, then a lot of posturers will have Egg Fu Yung on their faces!

And how about some shelf life/expiration dates while we are at it.......

Back to the philosophical discussion.  What percentage of non-OEM manufactured parts would be the magic number that would cause you to walk away?

[Tusayan]

What percentage of non-OEM manufactured parts would be the magic number that would cause you to walk away?

No particular percentage because that’s not the issue with plagiarism. The issue is creation and ownership of the design, not the manufacturing of parts.  If Piaggio can get parts made cheaply overseas, to their design or spec, in a reasonably free and open market, that’s a good thing that keeps people in both Italy and overseas employed doing what they can do best.  However in that case Piaggio makes the profit from selling the design it paid to develop.  In the plagiarism case, somebody else gets the profit from selling Piaggio’s design. 

If the company making a direct copy cat design pays a negotiated licensing fee, that evens it up but obviously Chinese industry is renowned for copying without paying.  I doubt they have an agreement with Piaggio here, but that remains to be seen.  I also suspect they will sell the bike only in the protected Chinese market to preclude potential legal issues, but that could make them plenty of money selling somebody else’s design to relatively unsophisticated customers who don’t greatly appreciate either the plagiarism issue or Moto Guzzi.

Interesting BTW that the valve covers are emblazoned with the FiTech emblem.  That is a US company that does EFI development for V8s and sells parts.  It’s certainly harder to copy Piaggio’s EFI than the rest of the bike given the software involved.

[s1120]

It wasn't all that long ago that Chinese machinery was looked on as being "cheap rubbish".  A few years back I re-engined  a lawnmower with a 5hp Loncin. The "lawn " it is used on is pretty rugged. This engine really is a nice piece of kit, and my brother who definitely was not in favour of it but eventually acquiesced has changed his tune completely, so much so that when his newer Briggs packs up it will be a Loncin that replaces it.

Im a tech in a Toro dealer, and the Toro branded engines are made by Loncin. We have FAR less issues with these then any of the other big brand engines. I would take them over a Briggs, or Kohler any day, and it would be a tough decision compared with a Kawi. 

[jacksonracingcomau]

No particular percentage because that’s not the issue with plagiarism

Interesting BTW that the valve covers are emblazoned with the FiTech emblem.  That is a US company that does EFI development for V8s and sells parts.  It’s certainly harder to copy Piaggio’s EFI than the rest of the bike given the software involved.

From the net, take it as you found it


Fi Tech involved in engine tuning

Fi Tech logos can be seen on the engine casing, and this company, which specializes in fuel injection hardware and software, was allegedly involved in the development and tuning of the 750 for Changjiang. Fi Tech is part of the Chinese company Dongguan Transmission and Fuel Injection Technology Co., Ltd., with a branch and technicians in California. Against this background, an adjustment to Californian and European emissions limits seems even more possible. The same applies to the European level driving license limit (48 HP/35 kW).

[jacksonracingcomau]

I do know it's been 5 yrs that they been making parts for Guzzi internal engine parts.

But the 5 speed Tonti SB gearbox was last offered in 2014?
Could’ve been made in RoC then of course, they don’t advertise such things
Nothing wrong with 5 speed box imho, not sure who needed 6

[SIR REAL ED]

No particular percentage because that’s not the issue with plagiarism. The issue is creation and ownership of the design, not the manufacturing of parts.  If Piaggio can get parts made cheaply overseas, to their design or spec, in a reasonably free and open market, that’s a good thing that keeps people in both Italy and overseas employed doing what they can do best.  However in that case Piaggio makes the profit from selling the design it paid to develop.  In the plagiarism case, somebody else gets the profit from selling Piaggio’s design. 

If the company making a direct copy cat design pays a negotiated licensing fee, that evens it up but obviously Chinese industry is renowned for copying without paying.  I doubt they have an agreement with Piaggio here, but that remains to be seen.  I also suspect they will sell the bike only in the protected Chinese market to preclude potential legal issues, but that could make them plenty of money selling somebody else’s design to relatively unsophisticated customers who don’t greatly appreciate either the plagiarism issue or Moto Guzzi.

Interesting BTW that the valve covers are emblazoned with the FiTech emblem.  That is a US company that does EFI development for V8s and sells parts.  It’s certainly harder to copy Piaggio’s EFI than the rest of the bike given the software involved.

Agreed.  Sounds like we really don't know what is going on behind the scenes, or how "Italian" "German" "Austrian" the "Italian" "German" "Austrian" bikes really are.

Full disclosure would be very interesting.  How many would be angry at the Chinese? How many would feel like the "Italian" "German" "Austrian" manufacturers sold them out?

Similar to one day you find out your spouse is cheating on you.  Are you more angry at your spouse or the person they are cheating on you with?

[Dirk_S]

Same motor company that made the 750 bmw clone that was older copy than the Russian one.

https://changjiang-europe.com/index.php/en/history/

But in those cases, they were actual deals between the countries to sell the designs. BMW sold the R71 design to Russia before all heck broke loose. Russia gave the design to China.

Also—China isn’t known for copying designs to improve upon them as most of us know. As a general point, their manufacturing doesn’t often lead to innovation or better quality, but simply price reduction due to lower wages. There was an episode of the popular creative design podcast called 99% Invisible years ago that dove into the country’s fascination with copying—they mentioned there are many replicas of famous Western design like the Eiffel Tower, etc.

To so blatantly copy a niche brand with a unique style is pretty offensive.

[Muzz]

I am told that you can use Honda parts in knock-off stationary engines, and vice versa.

Never tried it myself.

[cliffrod]

I am told that you can use Honda parts in knock-off stationary engines, and vice versa.

Never tried it myself.

Can’t verify that but can attest that the local Honda dealership would only supply Honda parts for a bike if we supplied with the VIN. 

A few years ago, We were working on a Chinese knock-off that belonged to a customer and inquired for a few engine parts.  The dealership that we called required a Honda VIN.  We didn’t have one so they said they couldn’t help us.  Whether it is a local or corporate policy, I don’t know.  But it stopped us from fixing that bike with Honda parts from that dealership..

[chuck peterson]

Don’t know the V85…but why is there a ujoint in a straight shaft?

I’ve never machined, blueprinted or forged anything, but does that make sense?





Is there a second uj in the engine case?

[jacksonracingcomau]

Don’t know the V85…but why is there a ujoint in a straight shaft?

I’ve never machined, blueprinted or forged anything, but does that make sense?





Is there a second uj in the engine case?

One simple word, suspension

Time will tell but latest  looks to me best system of final drive used by Guzzi ever
Carcano’s 66 was good,  Tonti’s  77 SB not bad, take or leave yer spineys and carcs, I like the v85 version

[Dirk_S]

Don’t know the V85…but why is there a ujoint in a straight shaft?

I’ve never machined, blueprinted or forged anything, but does that make sense?





Is there a second uj in the engine case?

All the new Guzzis have double UJs now.

The V9 and V85TT had one from the start, and the V7 adopted it in the 850 update.

[s1120]

Can’t verify that but can attest that the local Honda dealership would only supply Honda parts for a bike if we supplied with the VIN. 

A few years ago, We were working on a Chinese knock-off that belonged to a customer and inquired for a few engine parts.  The dealership that we called required a Honda VIN.  We didn’t have one so they said they couldn’t help us.  Whether it is a local or corporate policy, I don’t know.  But it stopped us from fixing that bike with Honda parts from that dealership..

Im sure its just the way the parts catalog is laid out. There are so many variations of parts that that is the best way to look them up. The problem lays in finding what part will fit that other engine. It can be done, and im sure a good parts guy with experience can do it, but whos going to eat the part on a guess that went wrong?

[cliffrod]

Im sure its just the way the parts catalog is laid out. There are so many variations of parts that that is the best way to look them up. The problem lays in finding what part will fit that other engine. It can be done, and im sure a good parts guy with experience can do it, but whos going to eat the part on a guess that went wrong?

The parts man specifically told me they would not sell me parts to service this Chinese knock-off of a Honda Rebel 250 engine or any other Chinese knock-off without a Honda VIN.   Iirc, I believe we eventually found the relevant Honda part number and still could not get this dealer to sell us that specific part without a VIN to attach to the account/order.  He told me that having a Honda VIN magically materialize for that parts request after we had admitted it was not for a Honda wouldn’t work either.  As a company policy, they were not going to knowingly provide support for the knock-off bikes.  We ran into similar issues trying to service an Agra Cat 4 wheeler, not to be confused with the Arctic Cat 4 wheeler that it “emulated.”   Both machines left like they came to us, for lack of parts availability.

Whether the genuine parts would have fixed the china versions, we had our doubts.  Running manufacturing changes in the cheap/disposable Chinese recreational vehicles, from scooters to early hyosung larger displacement 2 & 4-wheelers, meant that nearly everything was batch produced.  Once a specific part changed, it was NLA unless you harvested it from another bike in that same production batch.   For example, If you ordered a container of 20-40 scooters, they may represent a single batch or 2-3 batches.  The area distributor would reserve some machines to be his new parts inventory, but there was no guarantee that the piece he took from bike a for bike b would fit.  Everything was disposable.  Lifan machines seem to be better, but that’s for someone else to deal with and verify.

We came to think that the running changes had more to do with a variety of small suppliers filling orders for a similar variety of small manufacturing facilities.  At the end, they badged and added VINs so all of these disparate machines became the same superficial model.  As a result, they’re all disposable as soon as something more significant than a cable or a brake pad dies.  We didn’t like or solicit working on them, but had a lot of people needing help.  99% weren’t riding those machines as a preferred life situation.  Most of the time, we could do little to help them.

[Perazzimx14]

The parts man specifically told me they would not sell me parts to service this Chinese knock-off of a Honda Rebel 250 engine or any other Chinese knock-off without a Honda VIN.   Iirc, I believe we eventually found the relevant Honda part number and still could not get this dealer to sell us that specific part without a VIN to attach to the account/order.  He told me that having a Honda VIN magically materialize for that parts request after we had admitted it was not for a Honda wouldn’t work either.  As a company policy, they were not going to knowingly provide support for the knock-off bikes.  We ran into similar issues trying to service an Agra Cat 4 wheeler, not to be confused with the Arctic Cat 4 wheeler that it “emulated.”   Both machines left like they came to us, for lack of parts availability.

Whether the genuine parts would have fixed the china versions, we had our doubts.  Running manufacturing changes in the cheap/disposable Chinese recreational vehicles, from scooters to early hyosung larger displacement 2 & 4-wheelers, meant that nearly everything was batch produced.  Once a specific part changed, it was NLA unless you harvested it from another bike in that same production batch.   For example, If you ordered a container of 20-40 scooters, they may represent a single batch or 2-3 batches.  The area distributor would reserve some machines to be his new parts inventory, but there was no guarantee that the piece he took from bike a for bike b would fit.  Everything was disposable.  Lifan machines seem to be better, but that’s for someone else to deal with and verify.

We came to think that the running changes had more to do with a variety of small suppliers filling orders for a similar variety of small manufacturing facilities.  At the end, they badged and added VINs so all of these disparate machines became the same superficial model.  As a result, they’re all disposable as soon as something more significant than a cable or a brake pad dies.  We didn’t like or solicit working on them, but had a lot of people needing help.  99% weren’t riding those machines as a preferred life situation.  Most of the time, we could do little to help them.

Could you just order parts online and skip the dealer drama. I mean it's not like they have the parts in stock and would have to order them the same as you??

[cliffrod]

Could you just order parts online and skip the dealer drama. I mean it's not like they have the parts in stock and would have to order them the same as you??

Probably could have, but not my shop and not how he typically ordered parts.   This was at least a decade ago, in a old shop that still had no internet or computer.  99% of Orders came from Tucker Rocky, V-Twin, Dixie and 1-2 other sources via regular in-person salesman route visit or telephone, all done COD delivery. Just old habits.    We picked up items from local HD or other dealerships when needed.   The decades-old Honda dealership in town had closed and this new multi-brand shop had a much different perspective re working with us.   

If the job had been for a real paying customer vs a broke dude that needed help, it may have been $$$worthwhile to press the matter to resolution.  We avoided working on that Chinese crap for a reason..

[Vagrant]

In my limited experience the knockoffs do everything possible to look exactly like the name brand. But, the parts are not interchangeable so when anything breaks it's junk.

[AH Fan]

A retired engineer friend who was a student of mine explained the process to me.  He said when they wanted to either build a facility or contract items to be manufactured in China, which they did numerous times over multiple years, they had to provide all information about all processes, products and designs at the request of the permitting govt office.  He told me he personally witnessed a new facility being purpose-built to produce items for non-china markets, with an identical facility built via the state on adjacent property at the same time by the same contractors.    If you run afoul with govt officials for whatever reason, they could shut you down and move all the trained workers & production next door and field offer to fill the same contracts that you no longer could using same exact workers, materials, products, schedule and possibly at a lower cost.   Working like that led him to take a layoff for early retirement in his field and change his life direction.

The thing about licensing- They could license their product to be built and sold in China.  Or, the govt officials may simply allow those same items to be produced and marketed without them… make your choice. If any claims are litigated in china, guess who’s gonna win?  So it’s hardly a win-win situation or a good economic model for anyone else.  .

Many (most?) people don’t think it’s a big deal until their original, copyrighted invention or product is copied and all the time, effort & $$ it took to make it happen goes down the drain.  It’s only a victimless crime scenario until it happens to you.

Well said.......... And here lies the problem with the general population including so called leaders who have real issues of not being able to use that squishy thing between their ears and imagine what happens next.
Its just sad.

Ciao