Author Topic: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly  (Read 1962 times)

Online SIR REAL ED

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Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« on: September 27, 2023, 05:57:40 AM »
I'm sure this has been covered more than a few times, but methods, media, tools, and chemicals are constantly improving.

If one were to clean up an engine as an assembly, either just to improve appearance, or as prep for painting, what would be your preferred methods.

I read that one should stay away from sand/aluminum oxide blasting simply because gasket can not prevent the sand or abrasive media from getting in the engine.  IIRC, some people have claimed less aggressive media is acceptable.

So, how would one proceed?

First, what chemicals would you use to clean/degrease?
Would you then proceed to blasting?  If not, what would you do next?
Once ready for blasting, what media do you prefer?  Soda, walnut shells, dry ice?
Then what are your preferred engine paints?

Thanks in advance?
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2023, 06:30:23 AM »
When I got my V7 motor stripped, the paint stripper shop bead-blasted it, arguing that IF any of the material remained in the case, it wouldn’t damage anything. I tried soda blasting, but either my pressure wasn’t enough, or the material could hardly get through the powder coating. I assume a good industrial or engine degreaser would work fine for the prep. If going for Simple Green, I’d used the aircraft clear version, since it’s nicer to aluminum.
Current: '18 Guzzi V7 III Rough, '17 Guzzi V9 Bobber, ‘78 BMW R80/7, 1986 Sputnik sidecar

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2023, 08:10:18 AM »
I had my CX engine, transmission and final drive soda blasted by a pro and it didn’t cost me too much money. I did paint the all of those parts but the paint gradually failed by coming off in sheets. Obviously my prep failed so do your homework on what is the best primer for those hot parts.
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Offline Alfetta

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2023, 09:34:27 AM »
years back i had a Honda CL450.  i assembled the cases, cylinders, heads, etc..  the entire engine less the internals, may some bits to close off holes, and then put the hole thing in a tumbler.  It came out truly unique, it kinda looked polished, but not, it had a smooth closed finish and it greatly reduced casting lines.  I would do it again, if i had a project and access to a large tumbler.

just make sure the tumbling stones are smaller in diameter than the distance between the cooling fins, otherwise you will be picking stones out.
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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2023, 09:34:27 AM »

Offline paulbricey

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2023, 12:28:22 PM »




Depends how bad your engine is to start with....Instead of going to blasting media (to avoid stripping engine & to keep some patena) I started with scrapers, then Methylene Dichloride stripper to remove remaining black paint (there wasn't much except on cylinder heads & in cooling fins!), then small rotary drill brass wire brushes, then nylon rotary drill cleaning brushes (& combinations of vinegar/salt/phosphoric acid) & finally autosol on a rag....

The result (IMHO) is sufficiently scruffy for a 35 year old engine, but at least is back to metal !





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Offline Pescatore

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2023, 01:38:53 PM »
I presume you are doing this yourself.  It was a rough experience for me.  For starters, you need a place to do it; outdoors or properly ventilated.
Blasting will require a large compressor than can deliver enough CFM.  The average 20-30 gallon Home Depot brand can do it, but it will slow you down.
My engine was painted.  I started with paint stripper, which got most paint off with multiple application/scraping/rinsing... repeat.
Sounds like your engine is not painted: you are 75% done!

Under the paint there were some stains from leaks that seeped under the paint, just like the picture from paulbricey.
Bead blasting is one way to remove the stains.  I carefully closed up every hole and avoided blasting near engine joints.  Gorilla tape is your friend.
I would not use beads on an open engine, unless done by a professional with proper cleaning.
Then used soda blasting to get into hidden spots and between fins.

I thought I was going to paint the engine again, but after I was done the aluminum was looking so good that I left it bare.
I also suspect that only the factory can paint the engine well enough to survive eventual fluid spills and scratches.
I used Simple Green to clean everything, especially after the paint stripper.
Then I sprayed ACF-50 for corrosion protection... not sure how long that lasts.
If you have some time to waste, here is my story: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102352.msg1691648#msg1691648

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2023, 03:34:36 PM »
I/we’ve done this multiple times.  Here’s my Actual btdt personal experience using my equipment of whole assembled engines (and large assemblies), which are lots easier to do well if removed from frame-

Degrease it as well as you can first. Then dry completely, like with spray of acetone or lacquer thinner.

Soda Blasting.  Works fine but will not remove any corrosion and some more durable coatings.  Least aggressive but can still cloud polished surfaces.  After you do this, you need to use air hose to remove any clogged soda in crevices, then wash extremely well with lots of water and typically use something like vinegar to neutralize any remaining soda, then more washing with water to eliminate acid….  If you don’t, paint won’t stick and if it does it won’t last.  You’ll also have corrosion issues of soda residue remains anywhere, like in joints and around dissimilar metal contacts.    Flash rust is hard to avoid.  Read below-

Regular sand blasting (like pressure pot with black beauty or plain white sand) works great if you’re not stupid with high pressure and technique.  It will strip and texture EVERYTHING.  Polish will no longer be polished but corrosion will be gone, too.  No need to neutralize but again, flash rust is a bugger.  When doing this, I prefer using used black beauty (collected from tarp under & around previous s/b work- Guzzi content) because it’s a finer mesh and doesn’t texture as aggressively.  Used regular sand is usually even finer, but I don’t always have much of it to use.

Ultrasonic isn’t a great method.  I have a big US unit with basin large enough for some assemblies including engines, so we’ve tried it with different solutions simply because we could.  It can clean but doesn’t strip, is a big PIA to seal things water tight vs just tight enough to keep blasted media out, etc.  Not worth the effort.

Of all the various chemical cleaners, repeated applications of professional grade, accurately diluted blue air conditioner coil cleaner (buy it by the gallon jug) does clean and brighten better quality aluminum very well.   It’s not fast, but if the assembled engine isn’t trashed it’s a way to keep original surface conditions intact vs texturing caused by blasting.  Pretty sure it typically has some rust inhibitors in it to limit flash rust, which is a big plus.  If you use it after final cleaning of soda or sand/media blasted, it can help both brighten the alloy and mitigate flash rust.  Win win.

If I was going to seriously clean my CX engine-trans  assembly as a unit, I would remove from chassis, soda blast it, wash & neutralize it mild vinegar and finish with several course of blue a/c coil cleaner. Then every bolt head needs paint, clear coat or some rust proof treatment or replacement to avoid rusting.  But I would only use blasting to clean what I couldn’t easily remove and clean otherwise because blasting it as a unit makes for a more homogeneous overall look including texturing that isn’t original.  I don’t like that.  Jmho.

I have yet to try vapor honing, either a real $$$ store-bought unit or the pressure washer-siphon type kit that’s cheap on line.  I’ve got a pressure washer but haven’t bought or  fabricated connectors to try it yet.  I expect it’s a much better method than regular dry soda or regular pressure blasting.

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2023, 06:57:08 AM »
I presume you are doing this yourself.  It was a rough experience for me.  For starters, you need a place to do it; outdoors or properly ventilated.
Blasting will require a large compressor than can deliver enough CFM.  The average 20-30 gallon Home Depot brand can do it, but it will slow you down.
My engine was painted.  I started with paint stripper, which got most paint off with multiple application/scraping/rinsing... repeat.
Sounds like your engine is not painted: you are 75% done!

Under the paint there were some stains from leaks that seeped under the paint, just like the picture from paulbricey.
Bead blasting is one way to remove the stains.  I carefully closed up every hole and avoided blasting near engine joints.  Gorilla tape is your friend.
I would not use beads on an open engine, unless done by a professional with proper cleaning.
Then used soda blasting to get into hidden spots and between fins.

I thought I was going to paint the engine again, but after I was done the aluminum was looking so good that I left it bare.
I also suspect that only the factory can paint the engine well enough to survive eventual fluid spills and scratches.
I used Simple Green to clean everything, especially after the paint stripper.
Then I sprayed ACF-50 for corrosion protection... not sure how long that lasts.
If you have some time to waste, here is my story: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102352.msg1691648#msg1691648

That was a very educational thread.  Thanks for sharing!
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2023, 06:58:47 AM »
years back i had a Honda CL450.  i assembled the cases, cylinders, heads, etc..  the entire engine less the internals, may some bits to close off holes, and then put the hole thing in a tumbler.  It came out truly unique, it kinda looked polished, but not, it had a smooth closed finish and it greatly reduced casting lines.  I would do it again, if i had a project and access to a large tumbler.

just make sure the tumbling stones are smaller in diameter than the distance between the cooling fins, otherwise you will be picking stones out.

that is a unique approach!!  Kudos for original thought!!
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2023, 07:02:44 AM »
When I got my V7 motor stripped, the paint stripper shop bead-blasted it, arguing that IF any of the material remained in the case, it wouldn’t damage anything. I tried soda blasting, but either my pressure wasn’t enough, or the material could hardly get through the powder coating. I assume a good industrial or engine degreaser would work fine for the prep. If going for Simple Green, I’d used the aircraft clear version, since it’s nicer to aluminum.

I've never heard of the Simple Green aircraft cleaner.  I ordered two gallons from Amazon two days ago, got it yesterday,  thanks.
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2023, 07:03:57 AM »
I/we’ve done this multiple times.  Here’s my Actual btdt personal experience using my equipment of whole assembled engines (and large assemblies), which are lots easier to do well if removed from frame-

Degrease it as well as you can first. Then dry completely, like with spray of acetone or lacquer thinner.

Soda Blasting.  Works fine but will not remove any corrosion and some more durable coatings.  Least aggressive but can still cloud polished surfaces.  After you do this, you need to use air hose to remove any clogged soda in crevices, then wash extremely well with lots of water and typically use something like vinegar to neutralize any remaining soda, then more washing with water to eliminate acid….  If you don’t, paint won’t stick and if it does it won’t last.  You’ll also have corrosion issues of soda residue remains anywhere, like in joints and around dissimilar metal contacts.    Flash rust is hard to avoid.  Read below-

Regular sand blasting (like pressure pot with black beauty or plain white sand) works great if you’re not stupid with high pressure and technique.  It will strip and texture EVERYTHING.  Polish will no longer be polished but corrosion will be gone, too.  No need to neutralize but again, flash rust is a bugger.  When doing this, I prefer using used black beauty (collected from tarp under & around previous s/b work- Guzzi content) because it’s a finer mesh and doesn’t texture as aggressively.  Used regular sand is usually even finer, but I don’t always have much of it to use.

Ultrasonic isn’t a great method.  I have a big US unit with basin large enough for some assemblies including engines, so we’ve tried it with different solutions simply because we could.  It can clean but doesn’t strip, is a big PIA to seal things water tight vs just tight enough to keep blasted media out, etc.  Not worth the effort.

Of all the various chemical cleaners, repeated applications of professional grade, accurately diluted blue air conditioner coil cleaner (buy it by the gallon jug) does clean and brighten better quality aluminum very well.   It’s not fast, but if the assembled engine isn’t trashed it’s a way to keep original surface conditions intact vs texturing caused by blasting.  Pretty sure it typically has some rust inhibitors in it to limit flash rust, which is a big plus.  If you use it after final cleaning of soda or sand/media blasted, it can help both brighten the alloy and mitigate flash rust.  Win win.

If I was going to seriously clean my CX engine-trans  assembly as a unit, I would remove from chassis, soda blast it, wash & neutralize it mild vinegar and finish with several course of blue a/c coil cleaner. Then every bolt head needs paint, clear coat or some rust proof treatment or replacement to avoid rusting.  But I would only use blasting to clean what I couldn’t easily remove and clean otherwise because blasting it as a unit makes for a more homogeneous overall look including texturing that isn’t original.  I don’t like that.  Jmho.

I have yet to try vapor honing, either a real $$$ store-bought unit or the pressure washer-siphon type kit that’s cheap on line.  I’ve got a pressure washer but haven’t bought or  fabricated connectors to try it yet.  I expect it’s a much better method than regular dry soda or regular pressure blasting.

More great advice!  Thanks for all the detail!
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2023, 07:12:26 AM »
Since it is early in the project, and part of the plan is to be a cheap, tight wad, SOB (Guzzi content) I'm going to start with the Simple Green Extreme Green Aircraft clean and a bunch of small brushes from Harbor Freight.  A few areas have cleaned up nicely and quickly just using some Simple Greeen and brushing.

When I did the 790cc kit on my DR650, I used an VHT or Duplicolor engine paint called Gray Cast Iron (IIRC) and it was not quite a match for the silverish/brownish stock color.  If I get a chance I'll post a quick picture.

This could end up being a really, really stupid project, but hey those are the most fun, right?

I've already committed to losing money on the deal, but, the dollar per hour of recreation loss is less than a lot of other vices.

But, I'm pretty sure you guys always knew that.......

Thanks again for all the advice!!!!   :thumb:   
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions

Offline Dirk_S

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2023, 07:27:06 AM »
Forgot to mention, regarding paint, I’ve been wanting to try out Cerakote for sometime now. Cheaper than powder coat (but not rattle can cheap); durable—chip, oil, and gas resistant, though not quite as bullet-proof as powder coat. Did I say cheaper? They’ve got some great color ways. Do a search for “motorcycle” in their gallery section, and you’ll a good variety of looks:

https://www.cerakote.com/project-gallery?htids=Motorcycle%20Engine

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Offline rocker59

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2023, 02:06:11 PM »

Walnut Shells.
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Offline Canuck750

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2023, 03:50:00 PM »
I recently refreshed a friends V7 Sport with the motor in the frame. I used NAPA aluminum Brightner diluted 2:1, (use a full face respirator with acid cartridges), before and after, you mist the cleaner onto the castings then after a couple minutes blast with a pressure washer and keep repeating until you get the finish you are after. I did this for years before I bought a vapour blast cabinet and fully disassembled the motors.



After



48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2023, 09:08:33 AM »
I recently refreshed a friends V7 Sport with the motor in the frame. I used NAPA aluminum Brightner diluted 2:1, (use a full face respirator with acid cartridges), before and after, you mist the cleaner onto the castings then after a couple minutes blast with a pressure washer and keep repeating until you get the finish you are after. I did this for years before I bought a vapour blast cabinet and fully disassembled the motors.



After



Thanks Jim. 

I can understand that cleaning up bare aluminum, but will it remove paint also?

That looks like a REAL motorcycle.  IMO, casting reinforcement ribs should ALWAYS be on the outside of the motor, where they can be appreciated!

Good luck getting over the vertigo.
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions

Offline Canuck750

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2023, 03:43:12 PM »
Paint removal is a real challenge! I have had some luck with soda blasting using high pressure, at least 80psi constant but it can still be tough to get paint off. There is a commercial stripper available for removing powder coatings that I have bought from Eastwood Automotive, it will remove anything but the fumes are terrible and I would finish it with soda blasting.
I did clean a Ducati bevel twin motor once, out of the frame and I sealed over any openings with silicone left to dry for a couple days. I then used fine glass bead at high pressure followed by soda blast to soften up the surface sheen left by the glass.

Before



After



48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

Offline guzziart

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2023, 08:21:34 AM »
FWIW, soda blasting.....

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2023, 07:03:07 AM »
I recently repainted the valve covers on my V7II . Cleaned them best I could with simple green , well rinsed & air dried . The original finish was looking faded . I used one of the new “ceramic “ rattle cans of engine pain from auto parts store . I “warmed” them up in the sun first . Three thousand miles & still looking like new . Not many miles , I know . I used a gloss black , didn’t really like the original satin finish . It got pretty hot a time or two in city traffic & still look like a powder spray job . You’re results may vary .

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Re: Cleaning & possibly painting a motorcycle engine as an assembly
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2023, 06:55:52 AM »
Thanks to all who posted for all the great advice and sharing your knowledge.  After 2 rounds of Extreme Simple Green and pressure washing, the engine is "good enough" for my intended purposes. 

The valve covers on these bikes always seem to have a lower grade of paint and finish than the visible parts of the engine, and the dirt stays there and bakes longer, so the appearance of the valve cover is not surprising.  It does clean up well with some brushing, but repainting will probably be part of the process at some time.








The following picture shows the stock paint on the DR head, while the cylinder has been painted with Dupli-Color # DE1651 Cast Coat Iron.  It has held up very well for about 10 years now.




« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 07:04:37 AM by SIR REAL ED »
2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions


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