LeMans V Suspension tuning

[Turin]

So I went for a short ride on my LeMans V, (I've had a couple of hand surgeries since Sept and can't go far without severe pain) and she handles like a truck in turns. I'm ready to start looking for a 16" wheel !

I'm going to have to raise the forks through the triple trees.  Anyone else do this? 10mm, 20mm, or even 30mm?

The tire is a little narrow too 90/90-18. That isn't helping the situation, but I'm not sure if it's exacerbating the issue.

Thx!

[spmoto]

A wider tire would only make it worse. Mine was very sensitive to air pressure and tire brand. Avon's were on mine when I got it and they were terrible. Michelin's with 38 - 40 psi front and rear transformed it. Air is cheap, give it a try!
Steve

[Turin]

Thanks Steve! I usually go 38 lbs. front and rear. Also checked the shocks ( 1 was turned all the way up, the other all the way down.) The tires are conti classic attacks. I really like them on my III.

[spmoto]

Have you checked the steering head bearings?

[Turin]

not yet. tools are off limits until the thumb is healed.

[spmoto]

OK, now I see where your coming from. My advice is to let YOUR mod's heal before planning mod's to your new bike. In 3 - 6 months it may all be moot. Try restricting yourself to a rag, some polish and a box of Q-Tip's for those hard to get at places. 

[wirespokes]

I've got a 16" wheel I won't be using if you need one. Shoot me a PM.

[rocker59]

My '91 handled like a truck.  Very high effort to initiate turns.  Had to use lots of body-english to ride quickly.

Because of its extreme rarity, I didn't seek to modify it.  Sold it to a collector instead.  (he asked me about the truck-ish handling, too, so it wasn't just me).  Several period articles I've read noted the slow/heavy handling.

The bikes are listed with 28-degrees of rake, which is chopper-ish by today's standards. 

If it were me, I would:
-retain the 18" front wheel. 
-check the steering head bearings.
-drop the front end 20mm to start. 
-put modern (nice/expensive) replacement shocks on it, going with a longer length to raise the rear end.

People endurance raced these bikes, so I'm sure there is someone with some setup recommendations somewhere. 

[Turin]

Thought it was just me. I leaned to ride on a Guzzi with 18" wheels. I have four others from different decades that are 18" and handle better including my '91 Cal III.
WTF???
Steering head bearings seem okay and the lemon has low miles.

Mike, Thanks for the 20mm recommendation, At the very least, I'll do that.

Love the bike and love the motor and don't want to take it any further away from stock than it already is.

Front tire has some uneven wear , may change it out.

Thanks All!

[Tusayan]

Change nothing except to install a set of new tires and then decide what you think.  As mentioned previously, my impression of an identical bike was that it handled really nicely, very stable at speed and neutral leaned when over.  Yes, it’s a freight train but it should feel like a very nice freight train.

Usually moving the forks in the yokes decreases cornering clearance and detracts from the handling neutrality.  Conversely the right tires (and new ones) makes a huge difference, if what’s on there now isn’t suitable. 

[jacksonracingcomau]

Have a look at your yokes (triple trees in Merkan)
Press decried the first mk 4 for being skittish with 16” wheel, so they tamed it by increasing trail
The bollocking went on, even though these ones are good (short offset)
So they fitted 18” and kept the yokes increasing trail to see reaction
Although they steer like a London bus, no one said skittish anymore
5’s and 1000S share geometry, for some reason the 1000S is acclaimed !

Get a rejected 16” or better still, go 17”, modern tyres are something else
Or fit yokes to suit the 18”,
You could, of course, drop the front/raise the rear loads as it stands
Trail is the word, is the word

[wirespokes]

When I got my 87 it had 90 series tires and it also steered like a truck. The forks rose about an inch above the yokes, which made sense. The length had been determined by the 16" wheel, so to keep the geometry the same, the fork tubes had to be an inch longer. So.... when it got converted back to an 18, the forks are an inch too long, thus slipping them through the yokes to bring the front end back down. My 87 had been one of those converted from a 16 and the forks rising above the top tree.

i thought I needed the original (1985) triples to make it steer as it should. I tried several different things (forget what they were) but in the end changed tire size to 120x90 rear and 100x90 front and that handled it.

[pressureangle]

I just posted same in another thread; my '85 LM1000 handled like a locomotive with the 18" front wheel. Dead stable, and turned like the Big Boy as well. I reinstalled the 16" front, lowered the trees on the forks by 3/4" or so, new fork cartridges, added 1/2" longer shocks and it transformed the bike into an absolute joy to ride. Stable but turns easily, the insecure feeling the 16" front had when stock completely gone (had a metzeler on early, now wearing a dunlop). I had Works Performance build the shocks for me, which is no longer an option. I'd probably do custom Ohlins now.

[Huzo]

I had this for a while






‘Couldn’t wait to get off it, steered like the Exxon Valdeez.
No brakes, no power, no suspension, no comfort..
But aside from that it was good..!

[Frenchfrog]

Well it was a late seventies top of the range bike back then !!!!!! Compared to all the Japanese products of that vintage it was certainly capable if not different.Technolog y has moved on masses since then and a few upgrades would rectify some of those faults, the rest has to be lived with and described as charm  .

[Huzo]

Well it was a late seventies top of the range bike back then !!!!!! Compared to all the Japanese products of that vintage it was certainly capable if not different.Technolog y has moved on masses since then and a few upgrades would rectify some of those faults, the rest has to be lived with and described as charm  .

Touche’ Sir.
It went to a good home.

[wirespokes]

Huzo -- all I can say is - that LM3 needed to be sorted out. Mine has none of the problems you complain of, though it did have some of them when I got it. Too often guys think the 110x90 rear is too skinny and doesn't look good, so cram the largest in there that will barely fit. With the 100 front and 110 rear they handle very well.

Pressureangle - Tonti was asked about handling and tires and replied that all that's needed is the original size they were designed for. Getting rid of those 80 series tires made all the difference on my LM4.  No need for a 16 - I don't hear guys complaining about the rest of the tonti bikes steering like school busses.  The LM isn't really any different, frame-wise/ geometry, than all of the others.

[Turin]

Wirespokes
I have a 850T, a lemans III (90 front 110 rear) and neither of those bikes handle like buses. neither does my Ambasador. There's something about the rake and trail on the lemans 1000. My 87 lemans se with the 16" is great as long as the tires are aired up to 38psi.

[wirespokes]

Yeah, the others sure don't handle like busses!

My 87LM with an 18" front and narrower 90 series tires handles about the same as the earlier bikes. I've ridden it with the the earlier first series 85 triple trees and also the ones that replaced them in late 85 with an inch less offset. It didn't handle like a bus with either set, although the earlier set put the bars an inch farther forward. The thing that made the biggest difference was ditching those awful 80 series tires. The most significant change was going to the narrower 90 series front.

[Groover]

The T3 has 65mm offset, short swingarm and 195mm fork spacing - 18" wheel


The Lm3 has 65mm offset, mid swingarm, 180mm - 18" wheel


The 1000s has 45mm offset, mid swingarm, 195mm fork spacing, 18" wheel, *different handle bars


The first gen lm1000 had 65mm offset, mid swingarm, 180mm fork spacing, 16" wheel


Later gen lm1000 have 45mm offset, mid swingarm, 180 fork spacing, 18" wheel


Just general specs above. If put an 80's series front tire, drop the forks down as suggested maybe 20mm, and I think it would be perfect.

[Groover]

Some info assembled from a past post


https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=80870.msg1503550#msg1503550

[Turin]

Soooo,, the front tire had some cupping from being run underinflated. That still didn't explain the wonky handling. It's on the stand ready for a new tire and the steering head bearings are crazy tight. Rusted solid? Maybe. Front end is coming apart for new bearings. I'm still going to raise the forks 20mm past the triple trees.

Also going to install a spare billet fork brace. swiped off of the Lemans se



upload pic

[Groover]

I think you found the issue "steering head bearings are crazy tight"

Though, I like your next steps as well.

[Turin]

Steering head bearings had next to no grease.  New bearings, new 90/90 tire and she's good.  Also found a chin fairing and painted it to match. Added a billet fork brace from my SE. All good now.
 

[rocker59]

Thanks for the followup!

I wonder if (lack of) steering bearing grease was a contributing problem on the LMV I had a few years ago?

Hmmm..

[Turin]

My buddy who does the major service on my bikes (factory Guzzi, Ducati, triumph Tech) said he's seen this on Ducatis and Guzzi's of this era. They lightly grease the bearings / don't pack in the grease. If the thing wouldn't turn, then it very well could have been. Last time I rode a bike that bad was when I had a tire with a defect/blister on it.

[Travlr]

Looking good Turin!   

Mike

[wirespokes]

 

[Turin]

Final update. I ended up settling on raising the tubes 15mm through the triple clamps. Turn in is quick but predictable and she rails through sweepers.