V7 versus V85TT Engine

[ff73148]

Why hasn't MG put the V85TT engine in the V7. I might be interested in buying a V7 if it had a little more horsepower.

[Dirk_S]

A—Mounting points is my primary guess.
B—Marketing - the V7 is the entry level small block, so why would we put the strongest in that chassis?

Oddly enough, the V9 is still more expensive than the V7 despite…shared thoughts amongst many.

[pauldaytona]

V7 is made low cost as possible, the v85 engine is to expensive for that with high level injection system. But it is Guzzi, so buy an v85 engine and put it in a V7. I've seen V85 engines for 1500€

[Kev m]

It's nothing more than simple economics.

The V85TT has a much more expensive valve train, ECU, and do I remember correctly even crankshaft?

And with the 850 models the hp difference isn't nearly as big a deal as it was.

All that said, I've always thought a hybrid model with USD forks, dual discs, and the V85 powertrain could make sense in say a top of the line "racer" or "Lemans" smallblock.

[Huzo]

All that said, I've always thought a hybrid model with USD forks, dual discs, and the V85 powertrain could make sense in say a top of the line "racer" or "Lemans" smallblock.

Correct Kev.
I’ve been saying that for years and was always howled down. They conventional wisdom was/is, that they won’t sell because they cannot compete on the dyno, it would not be an issue to a hell of a lot of buyers.

Way back when I had the “why won’t they do it” thread.

[Bpreynolds2]

It's nothing more than simple economics.

The V85TT has a much more expensive valve train, ECU, and do I remember correctly even crankshaft?

And with the 850 models the hp difference isn't nearly as big a deal as it was..

Yup. 
And this is neither here nor there much, and listen, I’m certainly not promoting it, endorsing it, whatever, but if someone DID want to get more hp out of either engine there is https://gtmotocycles.com/collections/store which claim to get very significant hp gains out of both engines although the V85 engine gets the most.  I hope me just typing this didn’t set this thread off into another direction.    I’m really just saying if you a small bit more hp, as the op states, there is that.  That’s all.

[rocker59]

Why hasn't MG put the V85TT engine in the V7. I might be interested in buying a V7 if it had a little more horsepower.

Is this close enough for you?

https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/models/v7/v7-special-edition-850-v-twin-4s-2022/

[Huzo]

Is this close enough for you?

https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/models/v7/v7-special-edition-850-v-twin-4s-2022/

Lame front end.
Needs twin discs.
USD forks.
Ohlins rear shocks.

Too much gratuitous black.
Engine/gearbox/ bevelbox needs to be silver.
Tank side covers red.
Both guards red.
Wire wheels.
Silver or polished rims.



Other than that, it’s spot on…

[rocker59]

Lame front end.
Needs twin discs.
USD forks.

Too much gratuitous black.
Engine/gearbox/ bevelbox needs to be silver.
Tank side covers red.
Both guards red.
Wire wheels.
Silver or polished rims.

Other than that, it’s spot on…

the question was:  "Why hasn't MG put the V85TT engine in the V7."

not:  "why are the V7's suspension and brakes still so lame after 15 years?"

Or:  "why aren't V7's styling cues more in line with greybeard tastes?"

 

[Huzo]

the question was:  "Why hasn't MG put the V85TT engine in the V7."

not:  "why are the V7's suspension and brakes still so lame after 15 years?"

Or:  "why aren't V7's styling cues more in line with greybeard tastes?"

 

Well obviously the answer is perfect, it’s just the question was wrong…

[Kev m]

I used to HATE black bikes.

I mostly still do.

BUT, and this is funny. Buying the Carbon Dark (or something like this special ed.) in Black has one unintended consequence that I love.

AT LEAST THE FRIGGIN PAINT ALL MATCHES.... unlike all the other stupid new V7s with colored tank/front fender but a black rear fender.

So it's got that going for it.

 

[rocker59]

Well obviously the answer is perfect, it’s just the question was wrong…

 

[rocker59]

AT LEAST THE FRIGGIN PAINT ALL MATCHES.... unlike all the other stupid new V7s with colored tank/front fender but a black rear fender.

So it's got that going for it.

 

I know!  The black fenders and coloured tank thing has been done to death!

 

[Dirk_S]

Legend has it that Luigi sneezed while filling out the “black rear fender” purchase order, and in doing so slammed his fingers across a few extra number keys. Unfortunately, the lunchtime wine had already kicked in, and he thought he was simply seeing double vision, and so he hit that Enter button.

Also—that V7 Super Stone Sport Special Spectacular Special Edition (and limited!) still has the same motor as all the other V7s, so it’s not even one step closer to the V85.

I made a cursory search on the gearbox and engine block to at least see if the parts lined up (doubt it), but got sidetracked with my move to Maine. Would be neat indeed to get that into a small block frame.

[Bulldog9]

Why hasn't MG put the V85TT engine in the V7. I might be interested in buying a V7 if it had a little more horsepower.

I think the 'better' question is why hasn't Guzzi made a classic street bike out of the V85 Chassis? Dump the goofy beak and twin beam headlights, add a classic single Headlight, front fender, and a 1" dropped performance suspension and they would have a possible true LeMans successor...  Huzo is 90% there with his mods to the V85 for this.

That said, the V9 Bobber Sport is amazing, and the V7 850 Corsa is getting closer to what you are looking for.

I came to Guzzi from an 05 FJR. First a GRiSO, then an 8V Norge. Though the Norge made far less power on paper, by former FJR Buddies had no real advantage on several long distance group rides. I was shocked that even though on paper they had 40-50 HP on me, I hung with the fastest of the Group.

Guzzi will NEVER win off the spec charts or raw numbers, but real world, ridden correctly they do very well, and are far more rewarding and engaging.

[ff73148]

Is this close enough for you?

https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/models/v7/v7-special-edition-850-v-twin-4s-2022/

No. Same HP as the rest of the V7 models.

[Vagrant]

I can assure you the v7 I, II, III did not have 65 HP!

[kingoffleece]

Yep.  Not even close.

[Dirk_S]

I can assure you the v7 I, II, III did not have 65 HP!

I don’t think he was referring to any of the older 750cc V7s, be they heron or hemi.

‘Why don’t (present tense) they put the (current) V85 motor in the (current) V7?” That’s how I’m reading it.

Rocker59 points out a limited (current) V7, which is largely no different than any of the other V7’s in the current lineup, so the offer is somewhat moot—those pups are mostly the same bike, but now more limited, ha.

Kev makes note that the differences in power between the two current model motors aren’t substantial as they once were. Still—they ARE different.

Waiting for someone to now say “pfft—more powerful than MY loop frame V7!”

[Kev m]

I can assure you the v7 I, II, III did not have 65 HP!

Yeah, he was obviously talking "current" models - but once again for comparison's sake - here are claimed crank and dyno numbers over the generations (along with wet weight):

V7 (2TB heron): 48 crank hp / 40 ft. lbs - 39 RWHP / 38 ft. lbs. - 444# (V7C)
V7 I (MKI 1TB heron): 50 crank hp / 43 ft. lbs - 40 RWHP / 41 ft. lbs. - 436-443# (Stone)
V7 II (MKII 1TB heron, 1st ABS 6-spd): 48 crank hp / 44 ft. lbs - 42 RWHP / 40 ft. lbs. - 453# (Stone)
V7 III (MKIII 1TB hemi): 52 crank hp / 44 ft. lbs - 48 RWHP / 44 ft. lbs. - 461# (Stone)
V7 IV (MKIV 850 EU4* 1TB hemi): 65 crank hp / 54 ft. lbs - 56 RWHP / 49 ft. lbs. - 481# (Stone)


* Note: These numbers are initial release and first dynos. I don't have notes if that was EU4 or EU5 homologation. I'm wondering if they take a hit for EU5 if that wasn't the case yet. I know we've been told that the current models are EU5 and are still awaiting EPA approval. I would think if the older were EU5 also that wouldn't be an issue, but I'm not sure.

ANYWAY - and this is subjective. I went looking to see if I wanted to buy a THIRD V7. I kinda expected the V7850 to feel (in relation to my V7III) the same kinda difference that my V7III felt in comparison to my V7I. It DIDN'T (to me). Now maybe I just need more time on the platform than a couple of demos. And don't get me wrong, the V7III feels different enough to the V7I that I think the III makes a much better highway bike when push comes to shove, so I'm sure the 850 is decent. I'm sure it's an improvement over the III, it just wasn't as obvious from the seat to me, despite the numbers.


Looking pedantically at the numbers the III makes 8 rwhp more than the I, and the 850 makes 8 hp more than the III. Maybe it's the continued small gain in weight, or maybe it's something as simple as the tune and hp/torque curves. But the III was noticeable so I expected the 850 to be equally so, and it was more like the III than I expected. Either one is a minor leap ahead of the V7I, but, and this is the weirdest part, I just can't seem to part with the V7I. I really enjoy the feel, despite the obvious handicap.

So TO ME, the Hemi change was the biggest in "FEEL" for good or bad.

[Alfetta]

last fall i went on a 600 miller with two friends, one on a GS1200, another on a V85TT, and me on my V7iii.
we swapped bikes a few times on that ride and it was my first time abord a V85 or a GS for that matter.

I know that the V85 makes more HP than my V7, however it felt much "softer" than i expected.
We were just cruising, so we were never truly pushing any of the bikes.
Both friends noted that the 7 seamed much more visceral than the 85 and felt stronger down low.
they were very surprised, considering the shared architecture of the drive lines.
but I'm not sure if that was truly HP or that fact that both the other bikes are much more "refined" Machines.

My takeaway:
The GS pulls like a freight train regardless of what gear your are in, but it's a face that only a mother could love.
The V85 is a beauty, but IMHO needs more grunt.
My 7 (when compared to these) is defiantly a step down on the lux ladder. and makes longer trips a bit less comfortable, but it exudes more basic fun that the other two.

[kingoffleece]

It took me quite a while to warm up to my V85 after the MKI V7 I had that was mapped, piped, and ran absolutely wonderful for the almost 20K I had it.
The V85 is so much more refined feeling.  The only way to really know is to line them up........and drop the flag.

I will say that the V85 is really great out here in AZ-handles the long stretches just fine and is really quite impressive in the fantastic mountain riding we enjoy here.
Grunt (more of it) would only matter on the long straights.  In the turns a skilled rider won't be last............... .........

It really doesn't like much over 75 and at 80 per the mpg takes a real hit according to the dash readout.  About the same as my Heron Head V7.

[faffi]

I think the answer to the original question is that the V7 is not a performance bike. It was made originally to compete with the W800 andT100. Most riders looking for performance will not consider these bikes.

[Kev m]

I think the answer to the original question is that the V7 is not a performance bike. It was made originally to compete with the W800 andT100. Most riders looking for performance will not consider these bikes.

That can literally be said about everything in the Guzzi line and has been true for quite a while. Though the gap is smaller with the V100 products, there's still a gap.

[Huzo]

I would have been just as happy with the V9 motor in my V85, I hear that the ‘9 has a stronger bottom end pull without the top end “rush”.
But it’s just fine the way it is for me, I just accept it and ride it…

[faffi]

The oldest V9, with a claimed 55 hp at the crank, made more power than the V85TT below 4k rpm or so, and about 15 hp less top end power on several rwhp dynos - claimed difference was about 25 hp in favor of the V85TT at the crank. I find my 2017 V9 satisfying when it comes to power, and it will get briskly up to 90 mph. Now, satisfying does not mean exciting, but I think the power compliment the handling abilities of the bike.

[Kev m]

The oldest V9, with a claimed 55 hp at the crank, made more power than the V85TT below 4k rpm or so, and about 15 hp less top end power on several rwhp dynos - claimed difference was about 25 hp in favor of the V85TT at the crank. I find my 2017 V9 satisfying when it comes to power, and it will get briskly up to 90 mph. Now, satisfying does not mean exciting, but I think the power compliment the handling abilities of the bike.

The V9 Bobber Sport was the only smallblock I ever rode that really reminded my of a big block. It felt a lot like my Jackal in a very good way.

I still wonder if I should find one...

[Bpreynolds2]

The oldest V9, with a claimed 55 hp at the crank, made more power than the V85TT below 4k rpm or so, and about 15 hp less top end power on several rwhp dynos - claimed difference was about 25 hp in favor of the V85TT at the crank. I find my 2017 V9 satisfying when it comes to power, and it will get briskly up to 90 mph. Now, satisfying does not mean exciting, but I think the power compliment the handling abilities of the bike.

I’ll repeat what I said on here in years past, this at the risk of getting egged and/or flamed.  I’ve now test driven 3 different V85TTs and they are wonderful, fantastic bikes but I feel/felt like my former Roamer was more chill on the highway cruising at 75.  There is not a Guzzi engine I’ve ever met that I didn’t like - and I’ve owned a majority of them produced since 2001 - but for me personally, I might say that V9 hit the spot.  I say this even though I am currently giving thought to one of those gorgeous red, white, and blue leftover TTs     

[kingoffleece]

Totally get that.  I liked my Heron head V7 motor more than the V85-which I like-it just doesn't have quite the same "charterer" as the HH motor.
The V7 has a hoot to wind out all day long.  V85 is a bit more appliance like but nowhere NEAR as much as some other bikes-and still has the Guzzi feel-just a bit less of it.

I thought the same after a nice ride on a V100-it had a bit more "Guzzi" feel that my V85.  The V85 is as refined a bike as I'd ever want to own-but then again I love my 2001 jackal in large part because the motor feels like a horse-in a good way.

[Kev m]

Totally get that.  I liked my Heron head V7 motor more than the V85-which I like-it just doesn't have quite the same "charterer" as the HH motor.

Ahhh, but that's the RUB - these guys (and myself) are all talking about the first V9 Hemi head motor NOT a Heron! There was something about that which still leaves me wondering if I should find one...