Norge Starter Troubleshooting

[OldManMike]

I am trying if the starter on my 2007 Norge w/28k mile has a failed starter.  Bike worked fine until last Saturday.  Went to start it yesterday and it did not start.  I carry a new starter/headlight relay as a spare replaced it with the new one and it still would not start.  I can hear the relay latch when I press the starter button. But the starter is totally silent and does not engage nor dies the batter voltage dip as you would expect if it were in a locked rotor condition. 

If I check the voltage across the starter leads it reads 12.8V.  All fuses are good I even swapped them out with spares to double check.  Battery was replaced last year and it is reading 12.8V (full charge).  Wiring is stock……

Can I bypass the relay by joining manually joining orange yellow wire @ the relay and running a jumper to starter connector?

Any help would be appreciated

[Wayne Orwig]

Sounds like 'startus interruptus'.
Google it to find a number of fixes. MPH in Houston even has a plug and play bypass that can fix it, if you want a clean fix.

Basically, the power to the solenoid goes through a fuse, wiring harness, ignition switch, back to the wiring harness, through another fuse, through a relay, back to the harness, to the starter. The solenoid really needs over 30 amps to initially pull it. Yet the fuses and wiring aren't really good for even 15 amps.
It you measure the voltage at the solenoid it is very low.  Sometimes there is enough current to pop the fuse, but not pull in the solenoid. (once the solenoid pulls in, the current drops a lot)

My usual fix is adding a fused wire from the battery to the relay. Some people add a separate relay.
I fixed one by cleaning up the solenoid, which can bind in the coil.

 

[pehayes]

Voltage doesn't mean squat!  It is AMPERAGE that does the work.  Enough resistance in the system and  you don't get enough amps to do anything.

Yes, you can and should bypass everything and just run a test jumper directly from the battery +ve post to the small spade terminal on the back of the starter solenoid.  If it cranks you   have verified resistance faults somewhere in  your wiring.

Does your model have an 'auto-start' feature?  Meaning when it was working properly did  you have to hold the starter button constantly?  Or could  you just press and release and it would continue cranking on its own?

You need to read through four pages of this entire story relating to Norge and Breva.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=117948.0

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[SemperVee]

    07 Norge with 50K miles...   Ran aux push button starter from under seat and use occasionally to see if wiring from handlebar button is good.

    Easy to take care of.  *ALSO cut yellow wire from relay to + fused battery terminal.     Previous owner had aux horn tapped in and was making a fuss and blowing fuses until I fixed as described.

[OldManMike]

Thank you all for the help.

I added a jumper from the Battery + terminal to the yellow (terminal 3) in the starter relay diagram.  The bike started via right switch pod as normal.  Pressing the start button once latched relay and stopped the starter motor once the engine started.   

I sent an email to Kim at MPH asking if Mike’s fix allowed you to use the existing start button to start the bike.  $43 works for plug and play as long as I can still use my starter button.

All the best
Mike

[Kiwi_Roy]

Guzzi starter solenoids draw 50-60 Amps but the factory wiring is often not capable of supplying this current.

Test the starter
Take about 3 feet of 16 gauge wire with a spade connector crimped on one end.
Put the spade connector onto the solenoid trigger terminal then touch the other end to battery+
This will Hot-Wire the starter and it should engage and crank the engine.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thank you all for the help.

I added a jumper from the Battery + terminal to the yellow (terminal 3) in the starter relay diagram.  The bike started via right switch pod as normal.  Pressing the start button once latched relay and stopped the starter motor once the engine started.   

I sent an email to Kim at MPH asking if Mike’s fix allowed you to use the existing start button to start the bike.  $43 works for plug and play as long as I can still use my starter button.

You don't need the MPH fix, you have done it yourself for the cost of a little bit of wire. 
I would add a 25-30 Amp in-line fuse at the battery terminal

FYI the high current draw only lasts a fraction of a second, just until the main solenoid contacts close then it drops to ~10 Amps while cranking.

All the best
Mike
OK, it seems like you are onto the fix, the reason it wouldn't start before there is too much resistance between the battery and terminal 3
Even a fraction of an Ohm is too much for the very high current (50-60 Amps) that the solenoid draws to pull the gear into mesh.
I also found that the wire they used on my Griso from the relay to the solenoid trigger terminal is too small, it should be at least 18 awg or metric equivalent.
e.g.

[pehayes]

Pressing the start button once latched relay and stopped the starter motor once the engine started.   

So, that sounds like your model has the dreaded 'auto-start' feature.  On most Guzzi there is somewhat direct path from starter button to starter solenoid and starter motor.  However, on the 'auto-start' models the main computer gets involved.  After you push the starter button, the computer sends a signal start signal to the starter motor.  However, if at any time in this process the computer senses a 'too low voltage' then it instantly withdraws the start signal and ceases to feed the starter motor.  There are a dozen reasons why the voltage in the starter circuit can be too low.  Not the least of which is the sudden huge demand from that heavy, electron-demanding starter motor itself.

The solutions involve:
1- cleaning and tightening EVERY connection in the circuit.
2-Buying a top quality expensive battery and saving up to buy an expensive replacement long before this one actually fails (again and again).
3-Installing a bypass switch to get the computer out of this loop.  You only need the bypass for an occasional emergency start. 
4-Buy a different Guzzi that doesn't use the auto-start function.

Make sure you read ALL of the four pages in the report I referenced above.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Kiwi_Roy]

OldManMike,
                  I tried to send you a Personal Message explaining why you had this problem but for some reason it didn't go.

Guzzi don't show the second High current coil on any of their schematics, it draws 50-60 Amps while the solenoid is stroking to pull the gear into mesh.
Carl Alison drawings don't show it either.

Startus Interrupts is caused by too much resistance between battery and terminal 3 of the start relay, Weak yellow feed, half an Ohm is way too much.

The Numberplate light on CARC bikes is also on the weak yellow feed to the relay, I suspect it will dim down as resistance builds up when the relay closes.

Cheers
Roy