2002 California Stone engine seized?

[Motoferros]

free pictures to put on facebook

I was on a ride a while ago, and I noticed what I Thought was the clutch slipping on hard acceleration.  Engine was running very strong. Suddenly the engine started missing like it was running on 1 cylinder,  then seized. The rear wheel locked up at high speed, fortunately the clutch released it and coasted to a safe spot.
I thought I had experienced a timing chain failure.  I was wrong.
I took off the timing chest cover and found nothing abnormal.  This bike has over 100k miles on it, been through 3 speedometers so not sure of the exact mileage.
What I did find is the crank won't spin but moves freely and excessively in the main bearings. What could have failed?
Once I find it, I will post the answer.
Thanks

[Tom H]

So you say the crank shaft will not turn? You also say that there is movement in the main bearing? Do you mean in and out of the mains as in push in and pull out? Not sure what is excessive?

If it moves in the main bearings, then the crank is not likely seized to the mains. A rod bearing could have let go and seized? Not likely since you were able to coast to a stop with the clutch lever pulled, but if the clutch came destructively apart, that could maybe cause your lock up. But if the crank is moving in and out, clutch not likely.

Are there any debris in the oil pan? With the oil pan off, you may be able to pull the rod caps and have a look at the bearings. But before the bearings...

Pull the rocker covers and see if there is any signs of damage up there. Also, you might want to pull your starter and see if you can see anything, also try to turn the engine by hand with the ring gear using a screw driver or the like.

Tom

[guzzisteve]

Pull off the chain group, all 3 and lay off to side. Take note if key on crank is sheared. Once off turn each seperatly, cam, crank and oil pump.
I would also take rockers apart & push rods out.

[Motoferros]

As far as movement, I mean push and pull, and it moves in that direction very smoothly,  engine will not turn.I bore scoped the pan after draining the oil, there was nothing in the oil, but it smelled of blowby.The pan looks to have no debris. 1 clue I saw, one of the rod caps was oily, the other was clean, maybe it heated up and I spun a rod bearing? I am still   in the process of removing the engine from the bike. Taking off all the stuff that needs to come off.I will definitely post what I find. 1 guess, maybe there was too much push, pull play in the crank, and it sideladed the rear connecting rod, which lead to friction heat, oil starvation, and resulted in a spun rod bearing. That is my guess so far.

[Tom H]

I would do as Guzzisteve wrote and also take note if the nut that hold the sprocket on the crank is loose. If it was, that could account for the in and out play of the crank.

ALSO...for ease of re-assembly. your picture looks like the cam and crank gear are just about aligned. maybe just a hair off. Note the location in the picture. Now take a paint pen or the like and put a mark  on the gears and corresponding mark on the chain. Then if you remove the gears from you chain on your work bench, you can easily realign the chain to the sprockets.

Tom

[Vagrant]

I bet a valve is now imbeded in a piston.

[nc43bsa]

I'll bet that you'll find whatever it was when you remove the engine and strip it.  I wouldn't trust any half-measures at this point.

[Motoferros]

Well, looks like I spun the rod bearings, but why, I have not yet determined. I haven't pulled the other cylinder head yet, this cylinder and piston look fine, no sign of piston to valve contact,  crank turned smoothly now that the rods are disconnected. 
Time for a complete rebuild.

[guzzisteve]

You found it, time to pull apart oil pump.

[Bob Wegman]

I wonder if the oil filter came loose in the oil pan.  Sorry, this happened to you.

[matt franklin]

That sucks, brother.  Glad you weren't hurt.

[nc43bsa]

I wonder if the oil filter came loose in the oil pan.  Sorry, this happened to you.

You pulled the pan to get where you are.  Is the filter loose?

[Kiwi_Roy]

That sucks, i would be looking for a doner cycle instead of trying to repair that engine. one or both pistons must have seized in the bore.

[John A]

That sucks, i would be looking for a doner cycle instead of trying to repair that engine. one or both pistons must have seized in the bore.

That’s the best way to do it. Then you can get it back on the road faster and you can decide what to do with the dead engine at your leisure.

[Motoferros]

I may consider replacing my engine with a doner from a V11 sport. I already have an ECU from a 2003 Bellagio. Or I might just have this crank reconditioned,  buy a set of Titanium Rods, complete the machining on them, and install the Raceco Cam I just ordered. There are some really good deals on low mileage California Stones out there , probably would be best just to pick up a complete low mileage motorcycle. I have another bike to ride, a 2108 KTM Super Adventure S. There is just something fun about riding a Moto Guzzi, that you have done mods to, and can feel the difference in performance and sound, even if it will never be as fast as the KTM.
I recently added a GG Oil Pan with an exterior filter. It definitely wasn't loose! I had to puncture it with a chisel the use a screwdriver to get it off. I wonder if in the the process of installing the new GG oil pan , I got some spray copper seal in one of the oil passages? If so, it sure took a while to cause a problem. Maybe I  should have just stuck with the stock oil pan?. Oh well, I have been wanting to do some other mods anyway.  I guess the reason I want to rebuild it is more sentimental than practical,  or even rational.
Thanks All!

[Two Checks]

I would also check the function of the oil pressure light. Sounds as if it's inop.
Good luck on your rebuild.

[moto-uno]

  They don't call them "idiot lights" for nothing , GET an oil pressure gauge !

[michaell32]

I may consider replacing my engine with a doner from a V11 sport. I already have an ECU from a 2003 Bellagio. Or I might just have this crank reconditioned,  buy a set of Titanium Rods, complete the machining on them, and install the Raceco Cam I just ordered. There are some really good deals on low mileage California Stones out there , probably would be best just to pick up a complete low mileage motorcycle. I have another bike to ride, a 2108 KTM Super Adventure S. There is just something fun about riding a Moto Guzzi, that you have done mods to, and can feel the difference in performance and sound, even if it will never be as fast as the KTM.
I recently added a GG Oil Pan with an exterior filter. It definitely wasn't loose! I had to puncture it with a chisel the use a screwdriver to get it off. I wonder if in the the process of installing the new GG oil pan , I got some spray copper seal in one of the oil passages? If so, it sure took a while to cause a problem. Maybe I  should have just stuck with the stock oil pan?. Oh well, I have been wanting to do some other mods anyway.  I guess the reason I want to rebuild it is more sentimental than practical,  or even rational.
Thanks All!

I might be wrong but you shouldn't need another ecu to swap in a V11 engine.  Just flash the V11 bin into your current ecu.  Both bikes use a 15M IIRC.

[s1120]

I might be wrong but you shouldn't need another ecu to swap in a V11 engine.  Just flash the V11 bin into your current ecu.  Both bikes use a 15M IIRC.

I thought that also. I ran a V11 map in my stone for a short while, and it ran amazing. I changed it not knowing if the timing curve might be too aggressive for the stone engine.

[Motoferros]

Hey Thanks everyone for your advice and kind words.
I have a PC3 in my bike now, I have built some maps that work pretty good with it. I have not learned how to "Flash" the ECU, that is something I should look into. What is needed to access the map in the ECU? Are you using the Guzzidiag software?
Thanks

[s1120]

Hey Thanks everyone for your advice and kind words.
I have a PC3 in my bike now, I have built some maps that work pretty good with it. I have not learned how to "Flash" the ECU, that is something I should look into. What is needed to access the map in the ECU? Are you using the Guzzidiag software?
Thanks

Yes you can upload a new map with the Guzzidiag software. I have not done any work adjusting the maps, only uploading new ones, but there is a program that lets you. I think its tunerpro?

[acguzzi]

that timing case looked very devoid of oil, dry I would say, did you check the oil pump?

[Motoferros]

I haven't pulled the oil pump yet, when I do I will post the findings.
Thanks.

[dguzzi]

  Thank you for the great photos, the follow up should be interesting.

[John Croucher]

Sludge trap is packed full of thick stuff. 

[s1120]

Sludge trap is packed full of thick stuff.

Just asking... but the newer V11 engines like this still have the sludge trap? Ive only heard people talk about it with the older engines.

[John A]

Just asking... but the newer V11 engines like this still have the sludge trap? Ive only heard people talk about it with the older engines.

Yes, at least it is on a’99

[e.cleven]

Motoferros, I have a 02 Stone on the Swapmeet that may be of interest to you.
It’s a good runner that is road ready. I’m selling due to health reasons.

Earl

[Motoferros]

Hi all,
I think I found what caused my engine to spin a rod bearing.
While cleaning the debris out of the sump, when I removed the pick up screen, I found a piece of gasket material about 1cm by 2cm near the sump oil pickup. I believe that piece of gasket was just large enough to block the pickup tube like a flapper valve long enough to seize the rod bearing,  seemed almost instantaneous. I believe that I used some cheap ebay gasket,and the tabs that hold the oil tube portions of the gasket broke off, and somehow snuck by the sump screen, and clogged the sump oil pickup tube.
See attached photos. Thanks

[MattP]

I knew it hadsomething to do with the pan. Get some muriatic acid some q tips dab on rod jurnal  it will eat the bearing materal  and not crank steal, when don nutralize it take some crocus and polish the jurnal i bet it is fine. If neded resize rods.pull the plug clean crank. I bet mains are fine. Correct the seal on pick up screen cut the tabs of the gssket put new rod bearings grease gasket put the prick back togeather. Note it dos not need tobe perfect nothing is.