Cold starting question - SOLVED

[tris]

Morning All

My BMW F800GT turns over slowly when cold but once warmed up spins over like a good 'un

I initially thought that the battery was on its last legs (it was the original from 2019) so replaced with a new Yausa YTX14H-BS but still have the same problem.

Charging seems to be OK circa 14v with everything switched on or not at different throttle settings

I checked the voltage when I got home after a ride yesterday and it was at 13.0v dropping to 12.5v after a few hours and still 12.5v this morning.

Have I been unlucky an got a duff replacement battery or is there any else that can give these symptoms?

Cheers
Tris

[paulbricey]

Probably worth checking all the usual suspects (clean & tighten all earths, check switchgear, check relay seats, check lazy relay, starter motor itself (my Griso starter needs periodic clean inside) etc etc.........but IMHO the quickest way to bypass working through all these checks is just carefully run the battery direct across the starter motor connections (with the starter in bike as normal and ignition on). If it spins and starts faster/normal with large thick wires direct from battery, then it is one of the things in the list !!...if not then it's either the starter itself or battery...

[tris]

Cheers
That makes sense EXCEPT that this thing is a full Canbus bike and I'm not sure what I'll FUBAR if I go that way.

 I might put the bike on the charger and try and immediately start it as soon as I take the charger off.

That might show if it's a weak new battery before I rave all the farings off so that I can get the battery out for testing

[paulbricey]

I know what you mean about sensors/proprietary bus networks & power spikes & TBH up to few years ago I used to avoid even putting charger on battery on our cars (they are slightly newer than my bikes  ) without disconnecting the car supply ......BUT more recently I've charged/jumped/shorted etc loads of 'modern' stuff without anything going bang.

[DoubleGuzzi]

You don't mention battery type; I hope that you're using at least a Gel or AGM one.
There are a few variables, such as the starter motor gear ratio, that determine cranking speed but almost exclusively, you'll want a battery with high Cold Cranking current (CCA). Battery technology can greatly influence starting , for example the only true recommendation for a 2000 Laverda 750S Formula was/is an Odyssey PC680. Yup, other batteries can be used but not consistently/reliably. Less expensive, though typically a good choice are the Motobatt and Exide (upper/higher cost) ranges. Availability of particular manufacturers will vary Worldwide.
Lithium (LiFePo4) batteries offer a strong CCA but bring other 'challenges', lack of capacity being the biggest pain, IME.

Note: Yuasa batteries always had a good reputation (in the UK certainly) but if a 'standard' wet cell type, then not really 'up to the job'. Particularly with wet cell types, 'duff' ones do happen.

(I used to be a technologist that lab. tested automotive batteries. Dissecting them was 'fun'! )

[tris]

It's a brand new AGM as recommended by Yuasa
There are 2 versions and I got the one with higher CCA so should do the job with it's eyes shut!!

[DoubleGuzzi]

It's a brand new AGM as recommended by Yuasa
There are 2 versions and I got the one with higher CCA so should do the job with it's eyes shut!!

Agreed! I'd be tempted to take it back for an exchange and/or proper test.
(Some batteries improve from new, by the time they do a few discharge/charge cycles.)

[Wayne Orwig]

What weight oil are you using? What is recommended for it?

[Moparnut72]

I had a Harly that cranked very hard at anything below 40*. It was toss up if it would start or not even with the compression releases. It came with a 300 CCA battery. I found a battery that would fit that was 500 CCA. No more problems. With the Harley I had each cylinder was 55 Cubic inches so there was a lot to turn over. What size battery are you working with?
kk

[Bulldog9]

What weight oil are you using? What is recommended for it?

This is what I was thinking as well.

Tris, what year is the bike? Assuming 2019 based on your original battery comment. Getting on 5 years now, starter brushes may be getting weaker as well as the viscosity of the oil when cold.

Have you left it on a trickle charger for a couple days? I replaced the battery on the Griso (YUASA) back in October. I did an initial charge, but it felt a bit flat the first few times I started the bike. I only rode it once due to weather and cold, etc. So I left it on a trickle charger for a week or so and started it last week to warm the oil for a change which seems to have woken it up, and it has held so maybe this will help.

[Kev m]

I had a Harly that cranked very hard at anything below 40*. It was toss up if it would start or not even with the compression releases. It came with a 300 CCA battery. I found a battery that would fit that was 500 CCA. No more problems. With the Harley I had each cylinder was 55 Cubic inches so there was a lot to turn over. What size battery are you working with?
kk

Depending on just where the valve train and crank stopped Harleys often will have a clunk followed by a split second pause before cranking (even with an oversized Odyssey in say a 103 cu in TC RK).

[Perazzimx14]

What are you saying is "cold"?

My boxers and even the Buell after sitting in a unheated garage in winter don't start as easily as they do when the garage is well above freezing. OIl are 15W-50 and 5W-40.

If you are concerened have the battery load tested or buy a load tester at Harbor Freight for $17 and test it yourself. Its a handy tool to have on hand. Putting a meter on a battery and watching to see if it hold a charge or slowly discharges only tells part of the story. A load tester is what seperated the wheat from the chaff.

FWIW a lot of folks talk up the YUASA batteries and while they seem to be gernerally okay the warranty is piss poor (like most motorcycle batteries) being 12 months where the 1st 6 months are full replacment and the last 6 months are prorated. If you have a batteries PLus near you you can get a Duracel branded batter for a few more dollars that has a 24 month full replacment warranty. If it dies in 23 months and 30 days you 'll get new are replacment with another 2 year warranty. Batteries Plus alway has online coupons that run in the 15 to 20% range. Currently the Duracel BS-14 is $134.99 - 18% discount = $110.69

I also advise againg buying online because of you have an issue where do you go to get it resolved? Its not easy to ship batteries back to internet drop shippers.

 

[tris]

What weight oil are you using? What is recommended for it?

Don't know,  but I hope that it's right as it has been main dealer serviced from new!
That being said the dealer went out of business after the last service there so maybe the lads weren't so too happy at the time.

It's not super cold 3 - 5 deg C

240 CCA and it's only an 800cc twin..... no where near Harley land!

I'll go and stick it on  the charger and see if it bucks it's ideas up
Also, it's off for service next week (a good independent BMW specialist) so I'll get him to have a look

Cheers everyone,  I'll report back if I get it sorted

[DoubleGuzzi]

Looks like there's a few repeats of what I said but in a different way. 
Good luck with what you end up with. BTW, for the physical size of the battery, 240 CCA is OK but nothing special pretty hefty for AGM. 

[Edit] It's really only at sub-zero (non-antiquated measurement) temperatures when oil viscosity plays a part, hence the W(inter) in the specification. My wee Z200 used to fire up fine, after clearing overnight snowfall from it, on the mornings when I couldn't be bothered to kick start it. More than likely I used 20W/50 car oil in it, which was cheapest at the time. 
Example: https://www.selectsynthetics.com/part-3--what-oil-grade-should-i-use-.html

[Kev m]

Good luck with what you end up with. BTW, for the physical size of the battery, 240 CCA is OK but nothing special. 

Yeah, I was gonna add that www batterymart.com (the only place I buy online in US) has a number of higher CCA options if op is open to Li batts (like 330-360 CCA). Though personally I tend to prefer to stick with AGM myself.

https://www.batterymart.com/SEARCH.html?q=YTX14H-BS

[Perazzimx14]

Yeah, I was gonna add that www batterymart.com (the only place I buy online in US) has a number of higher CCA options if op is open to Li batts (like 330-360 CCA). Though personally I tend to prefer to stick with AGM myself.

https://www.batterymart.com/SEARCH.html?q=YTX14H-BS

Batteries Plus has a LION version with 400CCA for $129.00 and a 3 year warranty. If that doesn't spool up the starter nothing will. Actually thinking the Buell will get one of these in the spring if the SLA battery with 229 CCA that is currnetly in it keeps acting up. I did run it on "repair" mode on the HF charger that is supposed to desulfate the battery but not hopeful it had any effect. The Buell even when the battery is fully charged you hit the starter and it anwhere near the comrpession stroke will stop for about 2 seconds then slowly works past compression then will spin normally as it get a little inertia behind it. A few weeks ago the battery was dead and I put a jump pack on it hit the starter and it spun the motor like the sprkplugs were removed. 229 CCA just isn't a lot of oomph.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Splash the cash!
https://www.motorcycleproducts.co.uk/motobatt-mhtx16-hybrid-lithium-battery/1/032584
Other outlets are available. 

[John A]

A way to improve starting amps available to the starter is to add a relay. You would mount the relay, connect it to battery positive with a short well insulated wire. Take the original wire that triggers the starter solenoid and use that to trigger the relay. Connect the power out from the relay to the solenoid where you just took the wire from. That will bypass all the original wiring without changing anything. The relay takes over the switching duty, the original wiring just operates the relay. The Canbus will not be affected .You can make a little harness that is just added and does not modify the existing wiring. It can be removed to revert and nothing has changed. I do this to all my Guzzis and it works well, especially as the system ages and accumulates resistance in the start circuit. There are more elegant ways to accomplish this but this way is easy and doesn’t modify the original. I just use a 30 amp inch square horn relay and hook it up according to the diagram on the relay.

[tris]

Well. I charged it up yesterday and it was at 13v as soon as I disconnected the charger.
Overnight the resting voltage again dropped to 12.4v / 12.5v

My research seems to suggest that a nominal 12v AGM battery is at 80% charge  at 12.4v
(alarm is now running on its own internal battery)

Given that the bike has no fuses (except for the 30A main fuse as circuit overloads are managed by the brain) I'm not sure if a voltage leak is possible

So, Im not sure if this indicates a duff battery or not.
Discuss 

[DoubleGuzzi]

In this current colder weather, I'd want the charger to be kicking out 14.4-14.8V onto an AGM battery. Straight after disconnecting the Open Circuit Voltage (nothing else connected), the voltage should be around 13.8V after 5 minutes.
Your bimmer will be like the F650GS in that with ignition off, there will be a constant battery drain by the clocks. Missus' F650 clocks used to tick for a while - weird.
An in circuit 12.4/12.5V ain't a great starting point, IMHO. If you can leave the voltmeter monitoring, whilst attempting to crank the engine, then that will be the best indicator as to what state the battery is in. If it drops to less than say, 11.4V then get it replaced. Up to 12V and I'd say it still ain't good though and definitely lacks in capacity.
The existing starter motor relay may be suspect but typically they either work, or they don't; my K100 one went kaput but then it was an older bike.
With a Laverda and a Ducati, I've been down the path of switching out starter leads, relays and even adding an extra set of brushes. In both cases, only a 'beefier' battery could get around the starter gear ratio design flaws - the starter needs to spin easier.
HTH and food for thought.

[tris]

A quick up date.

Yesterday the new battery straight off the charger wouldn't turn the bike over 🤬

I stuck the old battery back in and low and behold the bike started.

Rode it to the independent BMW specialist for service and MOT this afternoon

He's going to check it from cold in the morning, but he's 95% sure it's the battery

The learning point is that a good name brand (Yausa)can be duff out if the box

Thanks for the wise words

[Stevex]

I had a duff Yuasa out the box last year. I did all sorts of checks on my CB1300 not believing a new Yuasa could be duff, but eventually I removed it from the bike, charged it and the monitored the voltage. It dropped to low 12 volts after 24 hours. Sent it back and they confirmed it was bad. A new one has been fine since.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Personally, I stopped buying Yuasa back in late '80s, unless left with no choice due to size/availability. Personal choice, when there are alternatives, that's all.

[tris]

I had a duff Yuasa out the box last year. I did all sorts of checks on my CB1300 not believing a new Yuasa could be duff, but eventually I removed it from the bike, charged it and the monitored the voltage. It dropped to low 12 volts after 24 hours. Sent it back and they confirmed it was bad. A new one has been fine since.

That's what I did and it dropped to 12.4v in about 4 hours.
I'm not convinced that the Halfords guy knew what he was talking about, but as soon as he said that I  could return it up to 28 days I got shot of it quick!!!

[tris]

Just to close the thread following the checks by the BMW specialist
1) Original BMW battery (2019) is at its end but not dead
2) Replacement Yuasa was definitely a dud
3) New battery and proper service has been assured
Thanks for all the input👍👍👍

[Stevex]

That's what I did and it dropped to 12.4v in about 4 hours.
I'm not convinced that the Halfords guy knew what he was talking about, but as soon as he said that I  could return it up to 28 days I got shot of it quick!!!

Bought mine from Tayna; when I contacted them they said return it for checking. When I did they tested it and said it was duff, but they had no replacement Yuasas, so I got a refund and bought another Yuasa from Sportsbikeshop which worked fine.

[DoubleGuzzi]

.. so I got a refund and bought another Yuasa ..

Interesting, in that you weren't put off the brand and questioning the QC.

[guzzisteve]

One of the shops I worked at was having 50% of our replacement Yuasa batteries going bad. We changed suppliers and it all changed. The issue was shipping & HANDLING. The handling before we got them broke 1/2. Didn't have anymore bad ones.
This is why I go to batt store & get mine, less handling the better. Glad you got it sorted out.

[tris]

I assume that your question is directed at me Huzo
The original BMW battery is circa 6 years old so it's reasonable to expect that it's on its last legs especially when it struggled to start the bike cold.
I don't believe in fooling around with marginal batteries, therefore a change seemed sensible
However,I never expected a new Yausa (which should have had 20% more CCAs) would have any issues
So when it struggled as much (more than) the original BMW did, I was nonplussed.

[Oca Grassa]

I don't believe in fooling around with marginal batteries, therefore a change seemed sensible
However,I never expected a new Yausa (which should have had 20% more CCAs) would have any issues
So when it struggled as much (more than) the original BMW did, I was nonplussed.

Of late, I’ve found that Yuasa no longer has the same quality it once did. This from Yuasa batteries in several different sizes (groups) and in a number of different bikes. In particular any of their AGMs, which while pricey, seem to only last a year or just over.

I’m just put off by how much they cost versus the replacement rate required. I literally have cheap no name batteries that have lasted nearly 10 years but several Yuasas that made it through a single season.

In my estimation a good quality LiFePo battery is your best value for money for a battery. I have used Shorai batteries since 2017 with no major issues. I have them my Ducatis and GSXR. Pricewise they’re about the same as a good name AGM….but about $30-$60 less than a Yuasa.

The downside is, there is no on board Battery Management System. Such a system is required to maintain cell voltage balance and prevent thermal runaway. That means getting a Shorai specific charger. There are other batteries available with an on board BMS…but not all of them are created equally.

IOW, it pays to do your own research. Any battery that spontaneously combusts should trigger alarm bells, sirens and red light warning beacons…and an avoid purchase warning banner. Some pretty hair raising stories out there from reputable riders on various other forums I’m on. Good luck with your search for a better battery option.