Cranky Norge

[Huzo]

Just in recent times my ‘07 Norge has exhibited an issue.
When the bike has been ridden in the last day or so, when I hit the starter it cranks for maybe 2 seconds then fires up, if you shut it off then hit the starter again it fires immediately.
No problem.
But of late, if you leave it for 3 days or more, it cranks much longer before it fires up, some times up to 10 seconds.
The battery is very good and to test this, I have had it on a trickle charger to make sure that it is not a down cell.
Nup…
The throttle balance is spot on, TPS at 4.6 and the CO trim at +10

Could it be a fuel pump beginning to show its age at 230,000 km ?
Or a fuel filter needing replacement ? (Entirely possible)
Would a reasonable test be to leave it a week, disconnect the injectors and hit the starter, noting if the fuel fires from the injector/s with good velocity ?

Interested in constructive input…

[Pescatore]

Spark plugs state?...all 4.
Air filter clean?
Is it getting colder down under?
When it fires, do RPMs decay quickly and engine stumbles if given gas?
Mine does the latter and suspect a temp sensor issue.

[Oca Grassa]

I cannot say I’ve had that sort of issue before with mine. However, based on what you’ve stated, I’d vote starting with the fuel filter 1st and see what happens. Could be that it’s getting plugged up. Also based on your description it sounds as the pump is losing its prime slightly over the course of several days. Possible an internal fuel line has sprung a small leak. About all I have for you currently.

[SemperVee]

  Peter,
   
 Took VroomHilda out of her  4 month Seattle winter snooze and she fired up after a few cranks but I ONLY feed her with Mermaid tears of Pure Premium no Corn * Hi Test pure gas.   When I shut her down 10 miles later she would not start AT ALL> even as the fuel pump primed. DEAD. Like nothing coming from the switch?  Thus I reached for my Auxiliary hidden monentary Amazon starter button and Presto - instant start! Why?  Brought it home and shut it down and again no start from the switch! checked battery connections, pulled the starter 20Amp fuse and replaced same since it looked good.  Checked the wiring from Relay to battery.  After fiddling with it, started the next 5 times at the switch!!  HELL if I know! 

[Huzo]

Here’s what happens… https://youtu.be/h6J_5DxnM1o?feature=shared

[Frenchfrog]

I think the only way you are going to find out what's going on is to proceed logically. Replace the fuel filter first, then the pump ...worth putting some de oxit on the electrical connections to the pump before spending real money 

[Huzo]

I think the only way you are going to find out what's going on is to proceed logically. Replace the fuel filter first, then the pump ...worth putting some de oxit on the electrical connections to the pump before spending real money 

Yeah Chris.
Although I thought a useful thing to do would be to unhook the injectors and see if they produce good output during startup crank.
I really will replace the filter.
 I’m not thoroughly convinced it’s a fuel issue, I always worry that the ECU is giving a false command to the system.

[blackcat]

 I’m not thoroughly convinced it’s a fuel issue, I always worry that the ECU is giving a false command to the system.

Disconnect the battery for a reboot then move on to all the other recommendations. You never know.....

[Vagrant]

You know way more about this stuff than most of us! If it were me I'd load test that battery first. I suspect it's dropping down to 10volts or less and with the age of everything else that might not work anymore. Cleaning the cables at both ends at the same time. I've started buying the biggest glass matt battery I can stuff in the stock location for everything I own.  I'd Deoxit the switches and the relays and fuses. I too doubt it's fuel but cleaning the injectors at this age can't hurt.

[Frenchfrog]

Yeah Chris.
Although I thought a useful thing to do would be to unhook the injectors and see if they produce good output during startup crank.
I really will replace the filter.
 I’m not thoroughly convinced it’s a fuel issue, I always worry that the ECU is giving a false command to the system.

You know me Huzo : I'm a lazy bastard !!!!!!
I'd do the simple things first ...the injectors could be the one too...maybe put some cleaner through the system if you haven't already done so ? I guess they might need a complete overhaul or even replacement at that mileage but the symptoms  make me think that the fuel delivery on startup is lacking.Stepper motor ? I'm a total clutz when it come to injection systems so this is all utter speculation

[twowings]

swap in a known good battery for an A/B comparision

[Kiwi_Roy]

Are you getting the initial couple of seconds pump priming when you turn the key On?

[Huzo]

Are you getting the initial couple of seconds pump priming when you turn the key On?

I’m currently engaged in a couple of other things Roy that do not involve the bike, but I reckon that is a good diagnostic direction to go.
The preceding suggestions also have merit and I’ll follow up on them too.
I feel that it is significant that the time between startups is a factor in the manifestation of the issue. You can run the bike for a few minutes and then hit the starter and it will fire straight away, I really think that the fuel pressure is not coming up as it should after a long(ish) period of inactivity.
Is there a way that I can check fuel pressure or test the function of the pump ?
I will look into the the possible cause being the slow priming and pressurisation at startup.
Do you think that by removing the injectors and watching their output on cold start would tell me if all is well or not so in that area ?

I’m leaning into the thinking that the fuel filter may be needing replacement and the tired pump may not be producing the flow, but I cannot see how the time between startups would play a role there.
Still….I just don’t know.

[PJPR01]

That's definitely too much delay...

When if ever have you had the fuel injectors reconditioned or replaced?  You can buy a very good set of knock off injectors on Ebay and swap them in while you're getting your original one reconditioned.

It sounds like fuel starvation.

I believe you've had the fuel pump out in the past, but before removing the tank, pump and having fun with the plastic elbow unless you've replaced that with a quick connect...I'd try the injectors.

You can also test the flow on a gross basis by disconnecting the fuel injectors from the fuel line and see if you see fuel flowing immediately out of the upstream tube.

Spark plugs?  Generally shouldn't be causing something like that...I presume you've done some recent Guzzidiag testing and checked all parameters, CO trim etc?

[Huzo]

That's definitely too much delay...

When if ever have you had the fuel injectors reconditioned or replaced?  You can buy a very good set of knock off injectors on Ebay and swap them in while you're getting your original one reconditioned.

It sounds like fuel starvation.

I believe you've had the fuel pump out in the past, but before removing the tank, pump and having fun with the plastic elbow unless you've replaced that with a quick connect...I'd try the injectors.

You can also test the on a gross basis by disconnecting the fuel injectors from the fuel line and see if you see fuel flowing on the upstream tube.

Spark plugs?  Generally shouldn't be causing something like that...I presume you've done some recent Guzzidiag testing and checked all parameters, CO trim etc?

Hi Paul…
The injectors are originals and have done 230,000 km. Checking upstream of them would be beneficial, but would not disconnecting them from their mounts and hitting the starter while noting the output, prove the function of the entire circuit ?
Also yes, Guzzidiag and mercury manometer show the TB’s in balance and CO at +10
TPS is at 4.6-4.7

It should be noted that the original TB’s were removed  5,000 km back and replaced with a molested but fresh set, that I recalibrated from data extracted from the originals.
There is no reason for me to be sure that the resting flow rate is spot on, but the dump time is the same and it fires and runs beautifully after initial cold start.

[PJPR01]

So based on that it wouldn’t hurt to try the fuel
Injectors test as they would be long overdue for reconditioning and spray pattern improvement, but has this long “priming” just began after the new throttle bodies were installed?

Disconnecting the fuel lines would at least prove that fuel is pumping right away…so then the problem would be downstream from the pump….injectors, plugs.

Although not terrible a CO at +10 with a Beetle map sounds a tad rich but could not be contributing to the long starting problem, unless the plugs are very sooty?  How are the plugs looking?

[Pescatore]

I would try turning the key on/off a few times before starting to prime the fuel pump.
Maybe that will build more pressure, pointing to a slow fuel delivery.

[Huzo]

I would try turning the key on/off a few times before starting to prime the fuel pump.
Maybe that will build more pressure, pointing to a slow fuel delivery.

I did that yesterday, but it did not seem to significantly change anything. The crank time was a fair bit shorter, but I think that was because I had started it relatively recently.
What would you guys suggest setting the CO at ?
I might try bringing it back to zero or +4 and see what happens. Pete Roper tells me that altering the CO trim changes the setting across the entire range, but it is so minuscule that it would not show up as a sooty plug even if it was too rich. In any case, the fuel consumption figure is sitting right where it always does.
The yellow light comes on at 410-420 km and dry at 490 km. I have seen 500 but that was a while back, so I cannot claim it from recent tests.
Suffice to say that the mixture is not overly rich.

[Huzo]

Does anyone know if the fuel pump can be replaced by a generic item ?
I have not priced a genuine Guzzi one, but it’s only a ‘phone call away, in any case I’m sure they just source them in.

[Huzo]

This how it starts when it’s been fired up after a few days off.
https://youtube.com/shorts/WeIywvqPH4Y?feature=shared

[antmanbee]

Does anyone know if the fuel pump can be replaced by a generic item ?
I have not priced a genuine Guzzi one, but it’s only a ‘phone call away, in any case I’m sure they just source them in.

There are many that will work. I am not at home and don't have access to what I used when I replaced the one in my V7.
All the internal Guzzi pumps are basically the same and share the same pump part with many cars. The whole assemblies are somewhat different but the pump is the same.

[Huzo]

There are many that will work. I am not at home and don't have access to what I used when I replaced the one in my V7.
All the internal Guzzi pumps are basically the same and share the same pump part with many cars. The whole assemblies are somewhat different but the pump is the same.

Thank you for that, I will check that out if the genuine one is unrealistically expensive.

[jcctx]

I would first squirt a shot of start fluid in the intake; if it starts immediately you know the problem is fuel delivery????

[blackcat]

This how it starts when it’s been fired up after a few days off.
https://youtube.com/shorts/WeIywvqPH4Y?feature=shared

Maybe I’m missing something here but that seems like a completely normal start up.

[Huzo]

Maybe I’m missing something here but that seems like a completely normal start up.

I’m sorry yes.
That is after you have left it for a few days and it has done the long crank and started, then you shut it off and it will fire immediately as you see after that for subsequent starts.

[Frenchfrog]

So it's struggling to get fuel in after a day or so.Loss of vacuum pressure?

[Huzo]

So it's struggling to get fuel in after a day or so.Loss of vacuum pressure?

Dunno Chris on the vacuum pressure thing, but I could test that theory by leaving it for a few days then open the fuel cap and hit the starter.

[Frenchfrog]

Not sure if that would tell you anything...it's the pressure downline from the pump that I would have thought mattered.Maybe a small loss of pressure there is normal ? It does seem odd that this lag only occurs after a few days rest and that it didn't happen previously either.

[Huzo]

Because I have a flow test apparatus, I feel ok to make an adjustment to the sacred screw.
Mindful of this I backed it off to close the plates a bit which took the TPS from 4.6 to more like 4.2
Then I reset the TPS to tell it that this new angle is 4.6, so naturally that is commanding a richer mixture as a consequence of less air and it seems to be a move in the right direction.
Maybe it was too lean all along ?
I’ll post a video of a stone cold startup when I get a chance.

[Bison]

Hi Huzo,
I'm late to the party, sorry. How about cranking it once as you do in the video, then pulling a plug to see if it's dry or wet?, that should give an idea of whether or not it's spark or fuel?. I have had quite bad problems with water in the fuel?, it's the stuff they sell here and refer to as "petrol", I know they are fibbing though!.
Alan.