V7 Left Cylinder Knocking Sound

[Parashootist]

Just picked up a 2015 V7i with 1475 miles. I'm noticing that at idle and off idle the left cylinder sounds like it's knocking. Once I'm above like 2500 or so RPM I no longer hear it. Since it's just one cylinder and it sounds different from the other one, that has me thinking something might be up with it. I'd hope with such low mileage I wouldn't be looking at rod bearing issue but what else could it be? Maybe I'll try to record it and see what people think.

[normzone]

It's a Guzzi.

It's supposed to sound like challenges.

Change oil, torque heads, set valves, ride it, report after that.

My brother always said it sounds like there's a handful of change in each valve cover.

I thought I had a major knock in one side - turned out one of my exhaust pipes was rattling.

[mechanicsavant]

Cold motor , don’t worry . Thoroughly warmed up ie. 20 min running time how does it sound ? Another note , don’t lug motor try to maintain @ least 3k rpm .personally I consider 2500 rpm lugging it . My personal experience, it smooths out @ 4K & the fun starts @ 5k . The party’s over @ about 6900 .

[Parashootist]

Cold motor , don’t worry . Thoroughly warmed up ie. 20 min running time how does it sound ? Another note , don’t lug motor try to maintain @ least 3k rpm .personally I consider 2500 rpm lugging it . My personal experience, it smooths out @ 4K & the fun starts @ 5k . The party’s over @ about 6900 .

I've been very careful to keep the RPM between 4k and 6k while riding but while taking off from a stop you need to be under 4k and that's when I hear the sound. I'll try to see today if I hear it when the motor is at operating temp.  I only have a few hundred miles on it so far.

It's a Guzzi.

It's supposed to sound like challenges.

Change oil, torque heads, set valves, ride it, report after that.

My brother always said it sounds like there's a handful of change in each valve cover.

I thought I had a major knock in one side - turned out one of my exhaust pipes was rattling.

I changed the oil when I got it at 1477 miles. There was some glitter in the oil but I questioned whether I cleaned the drain pan out well enough so the plan is to put a thousand or two miles on this oil and then confirm how it looks.

I will torque down the head bolts and check the valves, maybe tomorrow plus a thorough lookover.

[slowmover]

It’s not noise it’s sound

[Dirk_S]

I’d be likewise concerned, and would not accept it as normal when it’s biased to one side. There is normal noise, and there is abnormal—pinging, extra sound due to something loose, etc. If it’s pinging or detonation, it needs to be addressed, not accepted.

I’d first check the exhaust header nuts that they’re properly tight. But you’ll typically hear that noise at all RPM.

Then check the heads that they’re torqued.

Then check the valves that they’re properly adjusted.

All cold, of course.

Orrr…. Do all four at once (oil included), in the opposite order.

I’m curious how big of glitter?

I assume you’re comfortable with pulling the cylinder? For peace of mind, you could check the axial and end play of the pistons and con rods, and it’s relatively easy to do on these motors (may want to have an express pair of base and head gaskets on hand). Just want to make sure those rings are properly aligned when dropping back into the cylinder. Heck—the last two or three times I’ve had the cylinders off my small blocks, I didn’t even use a ring compression tool.

(Disclaimer: just a wannabe shade tree mechanic)

[n3303j]

My V11 had a lower RPM tapping left side that got me concerned about engine issues. One day of looking around for problems I found a header tapping on a bit of frame. Another time I noticed a sidestand spring too close to the same header. The glitter bothers me. But you want to eliminate the cheap problems first.

[Parashootist]

Found this thread this morning from the previous owner (he posted it on a couple different forums) so it looks like he was concerned about the engine.

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/2017-v7-knock.20435/

My gut says the left rod bearing is probably going out but I'm hoping I'm just being a pessimist. Ideally it's something less drastic.

I'm comfortable taking the head and cylinder off. I'll probably order the gaskets first though. It doesn't sound like valvetrain noise to me but this is my first guzzi so I'm not totally familiar with how it should sound.

I would think if the head bolts were loose enough to cause sound I would see a leak on that side,  which I don't.

I have to ride it 150 miles home today so hopefully it doesn't grenade haha.

[Dirk_S]

I forget if you’ve shared before—what grade of fuel is in the tank? I would definitely stick to premium for now.

With such low miles, I wouldn’t think guides would be toast unless the cylinder was burning up, which you’d probably see due to a glowing header with those single-wall pipes.

Is the exhaust stock?

Not saying you need to, but if you care to check the crankshaft endplay at some point, there’s also a tech service bulletin on how to check the crankshaft endplay through the starter motor input hole. Would need a depth gauge.

As someone who ignorantly starved their V7 II motor of oil and spun a big end bearing, then rebuilt the motor in my kitchen a couple years back with the help of this forum and the factory service videos found on Greg Bender’s THISOLDTRACTOR.com site, I’ll certainly be following along with your findings.

[Vagrant]

On 15's the exhaust nuts do need to be tightened after every ride for up to 10000 miles. They were also prone to having the pipes hitting the frame or other things as stated above. It's not uncommon for the cover plate bolts in the rear end to be loose. You would need to pull the tire to check but usually it will drip oil on the tire.

[Parashootist]

On 15's the exhaust nuts do need to be tightened after every ride for up to 10000 miles. They were also prone to having the pipes hitting the frame or other things as stated above. It's not uncommon for the cover plate bolts in the rear end to be loose. You would need to pull the tire to check but usually it will drip oil on the tire.

I'll certainly check the exhaust nuts. I'd love for it to be something simple like that.

I forget if you’ve shared before—what grade of fuel is in the tank? I would definitely stick to premium for now.

With such low miles, I wouldn’t think guides would be toast unless the cylinder was burning up, which you’d probably see due to a glowing header with those single-wall pipes.

Is the exhaust stock?

Not saying you need to, but if you care to check the crankshaft endplay at some point, there’s also a tech service bulletin on how to check the crankshaft endplay through the starter motor input hole. Would need a depth gauge.

As someone who ignorantly starved their V7 II motor of oil and spun a big end bearing, then rebuilt the motor in my kitchen a couple years back with the help of this forum and the factory service videos found on Greg Bender’s THISOLDTRACTOR.com site, I’ll certainly be following along with your findings.

I've filled up twice so far with premium. I drained the tank the day I got it so I didn't run it with the old fuel. Yesterday the fuel light came on around 170 miles and it took 4 gallons to fill up when I got to the station at 180 miles. Totally could have made it to my destination.

The exhaust is stock. They're definitely bluing a fair bit but I haven't noticed any glowing.

If I have to replace the big end bearing or something, I will, but I won't be happy about it and the previous owner will certainly be getting a call in that scenario. He did say the first valve adjustment had been done so maybe they messed something up.

At any rate I'll probably dump the oil later today, if a bearing is going,  there should be glitter after 400 miles of riding.

[John A]

Some are noisier than others. Just be aware sometimes they can sound terrible with nothing wrong. It’s one of the benefits of water cooling, water jackets are a sound deadener. It’s sometimes frustrating when you rebuild it and it sounds the same afterwards. But it’s best to see if there is a problem, sometimes there is. Does pulling the clutch lever change the sound at idle? It should because it unclamps the plates but I don’t think it means much. Check the pushrod ends for looseness, it’s rare but sometimes happens. Kickstand springs and header pipes as someone said can be a source. Good luck and let us know what you find.

[guzzisteve]

Don't think about the Chinese parts in there, they are normally good. Although Vagrent had failures. It was around then they went that way. Piaggio is big in that sourcing but a higher quality. How do you think they got a Guzzi engined  sidecar rig.

[Parashootist]

It made the 150 mile ride home. Planning to drop the oil shortly. It doesn't make the knocking sound unless I'm pulling away under load. In neutral, clutch in or out it doesn't knock or make and sounds I'm uncomfortable with. It's really just from like 2 to 4k rpm in first and second, after that it either goes away or I can no longer hear it.

[Parashootist]

Oil has fine metal particles in it for sure, I tried to filter it through a piece of paper towel to catch all of it but it wouldn't go through. Ended up just pouring it in a jug and the glitter appears to have sunk to the bottom of the pan. Bummer.

[guzzisteve]

What was the classic oil change mistake the mechanic made in the 1st service for your bike? That's what it said on GT forum, a mistake in the oil change.

[Parashootist]

What was the classic oil change mistake the mechanic made in the 1st service for your bike? That's what it said on GT forum, a mistake in the oil change.

I can't answer that question. I just found that forum thread 2 weeks after I purchased the bike. I just messaged the previous owner to ask.

[n3303j]

The only classic oil change mistakes I know are:
A. Loose drain plug falls out on ride from shop.
B. Forgot to refill sump and fires up the engine dry.

[Parashootist]

The only classic oil change mistakes I know are:
A. Loose drain plug falls out on ride from shop.
B. Forgot to refill sump and fires up the engine dry.

My guess is B. Which if that is the case I'm not sure why that Guzzitech thread talks about the transmission. It is clearly coming from the left cylinder. The seller was nice but this feels dishonest to me. I have the skill set to tear the engine down and fix it but I bought what I felt was a mint/low mile bike so I wouldn't have to work on it (at least for awhile). I have plenty of project bikes. Also while I got a great deal on it, I didn't get a, "needs a bottom end rebuild" type of deal.

[Dirk_S]

If the PO indeed did you a dirty, as a small block fan, I would like to send some sympathies, apologies, and good thoughts your way. This is not a great start to a beautiful friendship. At least when I tore down my motor, I had given it 36k miles of love. But, you’ve got a couple solids working for you at the very least—they’re like a small car motor, there are tech videos available, and it’s fun to take a small block apart. The bike literally splits in half:





What other model can you push half the bike around like a wheelbarrow?

The only caution I’d point out is that bearings have tight clearances. Make sure you’ve got good (enough) gauges. That said, I didn’t use anything expensive, PlastiGauge was my friend.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I had a knocking noise in my 72 Eldorado, I thought it was a big End
It turned out to be the 6mm bolt that holds the rocker shaft in place had rattled out letting the rocker shaft drop down to rattle on the inside of the valve cover.
Another time on a Lario I pulled the rocker cover off and the valve adjuster fallout onto the ground.

[slowmover]

I tracked a rattling sound at certain RPMs to some weird loose screw spacer in the headlight housing.I was sure it was coming from the engine.

[Parashootist]

I had a knocking noise in my 72 Eldorado, I thought it was a big End
It turned out to be the 6mm bolt that holds the rocker shaft in place had rattled out letting the rocker shaft drop down to rattle on the inside of the valve cover.
Another time on a Lario I pulled the rocker cover off and the valve adjuster fallout onto the ground.

I'd love for it to not be the big end bearing but two oil changes in a row with glitter in the oil isn't a good sign. Clearly not magnetic or it would have been stuck to the magnet.

I tracked a rattling sound at certain RPMs to some weird loose screw spacer in the headlight housing.I was sure it was coming from the engine.

Did that cause metal flakes in your oil? 

[Tom H]

Let me start this with that your engine is soo low miles, it's still breaking in for about another 10-15000 miles. So there could be a bit of stuff with an oil change for a bit.

I did read the other site post you linked to.

Next. Do as mentioned already. Valve check, something rattling not related to the engine, ect.. Some Guzzies have more noise than the next one of the same engine, don't know why. So it "could" be normal.

Now for the bad part..... If I read all this about your bike right, it was built in 2015. If it was early 2015, lets say before October, you "should" have a good engine. After, there was an issue with the crankshaft that caused the thrust bushings to fall out of place and basically destroy the engine.

A good note.....This normally happened after about 10,000 miles, a few after 6K and some after about 15k. SOOOO, it's unlikely the crank/thrust bearings  issue is your problem.

The date and engine numbers have been posted on the range of "possibly" affected engines. IIRR it was about October???? Do a search here, I know I posted a month range that was pretty accurate, but I can't find my post here. A web search will also turn up a list.

The MAIN symptom was constantly having to adjust the clutch free play (too loose and too tight constantly). and sometimes also the engine revs would get pulled down when you pulled the clutch lever to get it in gear at idle.

The check was to pull the starter and see how much the crank Ring Gear moved front to back. If you couldn't see it move and only felt "like" a MM of movement, it was good. If you could see it move  with a clunk forward and back, it was bad. There was a spec on this in a link on the page on the other site you posted.

So hopefully it's just a valve adjustment or a rattle somewhere. They really are a nice bike, light enough, decent power, decent comfort. The down side was the late 2015 build date engine issue.

Sorry to hear that your first Guzzi has an issue of some sort. They really are pretty good bikes that can go 10's of thousands of trouble free miles and even more with just basic maintenance.

Keep us informed!!
Tom

[Tom H]

This is an add on to my previous post.

I mentioned the symptoms. Your knocking sound on one side was not one that I have read about. So that can be a good thing 

Now, if it has the bad thrust bearings, then it "could" have big end rod noises since the crank is not being held in correct alignment with the cylinder and rods. But again, I do not recall this being a symptom.

Best of luck!!!!!
Tom

[Kev m]

Let me start this with that your engine is soo low miles, it's still breaking in for about another 10-15000 miles. So there could be a bit of stuff with an oil change for a bit.

I'm really REALLY skeptical about this.

* I continue to reject the idea that a motor takes thousands of miles to break in. The overwhelming majority of break in is done in the first few heat cycles.

And I don't recall ever seeing a lot of metal in a break in oil change. But fingers crossed for the OP that the subjective nature of the discussion might mean that's what he's seeing. Still if the oil changes were back to back with only a little miles between, even at 1500 or so total miles major wear in should be done.

* I could be wrong on the second point, but I've never seen the thrust bearing issue on a MkI model, only on the MKII. Have you seen one? I mean it was a batch of incorrectly machined crankshafts so if they are identical between the two and the production runs spanned their presence I guess it's possible.

Of course if this WAS one of those it would be little comfort since Guzzi has long since washed their hands of that debacle anyway.

[Dirk_S]

My V7 II wasn’t one of those turd motors, so I can’t speak from experience, but I agree that the symptom doesn’t sound like that crankshaft issue. You’d think both cylinders would be making a sound, no? And of course there’s that clutch adjustment necessity as you guys already mentioned.

Rather, this reminds me of the issue I had after I had put my motor together. I made a post following my rebuild about my left cylinder making a pinging noise. Sounded like the ol’ “can of marbles” people speak of when a rod bearing is going. I pulled the cylinder off twice and felt no radial movement. Then I checked my guides. One seemed a little toast, so I replaced them. The sound persisted.

I never did find the issue, but before I sold it, the problem was gone, and I wasn’t too worried about it anymore (I have a guilty conscience and wouldn’t  hand off something in poor condition without telling the buyer). Maybe it was a valve adjustment? I wish I could pinpoint the moment it went away.

I did have a little glitter the first couple oil changes that I was concerned about. The glitter went away after maybe the third fluid change.

I also had glowing headers on the aftermarket 70tre pipes following the rebuild, and the left was glowing hotter. This made me wonder if I had maybe gotten my timing chain off by one link? In any case, I had begun losing horsepower over time—sidecar use made me think too much load over-stressing the motor, or perhaps I just rebuilt it poorly. Before I sold it, I threw on a new Arrow scrambler exhaust I had sitting around, and the horsepower came back. Was able to hand it off with fair confidence, although I’ve told the buyer that the timing chain should be inspected someday.

I’ve seen that bike a few times since selling it, as the buyer has had me do a couple modifications and services on it. I don’t hear the sound anymore.

I know this anecdotal novella doesn’t offer anything definitive other than the notion that Dirk has a way to go before he can call himself mechanically adept, but I hope there’s at least some helpful tidbits to pan from this creek.

[Parashootist]

While this is my first Guzzi, my gut says it's not the crankshaft end float issue. The clutch adjustment does not appear to have changed over the 400 miles I've ridden in the last week. I also don't think the glitter is part of normal break in. To me, some filings on the magnet are expected but non magnetic glitter is a bit abnormal. I also agree with Dirk that I'd expect to hear the noise on both sides if it was the thrust bearing issue.

I haven't gotten a response from the seller but I bet it was run without oil based on the post the seller made. I would never bring a vehicle in for an oil change (or any service) but if I did and that happened, I would have handled the situation very differently. It's weird to me that the seller didn't dump the oil when he was hearing a "rotational noise". It's the first thing I would have done.

I'm really REALLY skeptical about this.

* I continue to reject the idea that a motor takes thousands of miles to break in. The overwhelming majority of break in is done in the first few heat cycles.

And I don't recall ever seeing a lot of metal in a break in oil change. But fingers crossed for the OP that the subjective nature of the discussion might mean that's what he's seeing. Still if the oil changes were back to back with only a little miles between, even at 1500 or so total miles major wear in should be done.

* I could be wrong on the second point, but I've never seen the thrust bearing issue on a MkI model, only on the MKII. Have you seen one? I mean it was a batch of incorrectly machined crankshafts so if they are identical between the two and the production runs spanned their presence I guess it's possible.

Of course if this WAS one of those it would be little comfort since Guzzi has long since washed their hands of that debacle anyway.

[Parashootist]

The previous owner replied that the classic mistake the mechanic made during the oil change was over filling it. In that case it wouldn't explain the metal glitter.

I cut open the oil filter and there were some fine metal particles,  but not very many. I have the valve cover off now.

[Parashootist]

Popped off the valve cover. Head bolts were all tight. Intake was right at .004" and exhaust was .006". Everything looked good. Spark plug color looked pretty good. Exhaust header bolts were both snug.

I didn't pull the cylinder off since I don't have gaskets.