Fun with brakes: A V85 Alert Service Enigma

[DesertPilot]

For the past 2000 miles or so, my beloved but not entirely undemanding E4 V75 TT has been perplexing me with an intermittent problem. Sometimes the Alert Service warning -- a.k.a. We Wouldn't Dream Of Telling You What's Actually Wrong warning -- comes on when I apply the front brakes.  The symptoms are as follows.

1) It doesn't seem to happen when the brakes are cold.

2) There are no ABS warnings.  That's an entirely different warning.  That actually does tell you what's wrong.

3) I've cleaned the calipers, verified they aren't frozen, flushed the brake fluid, and sacrificed photographs of angry hamsters to Spickle, the Intermittent Failure God.

4) The brakes seem to work fine.

5) Gas mileage seems unchanged, with no sign the brakes could be dragging.

6) After the brakes have gotten hot during a long ride downhill, the Alert Service light may comes on when you apply the front brakes. The light stays on until you reset it by switching off the ignition.

7) After the brakes are hit and the problem has appeared, the bike doesn't have to be moving. It you switch the ignition back on, start the bike at idle, the bike idles with the Alert Service light off, but if you then apply the front brakes with the bike sitting still, the light may come on again.

8) The problem seems to go away after the brakes have cooled off during the freeway ride back home.

I'm going to pull the calipers off one more time to have a look, but I'm running out of ideas here...

[Vagrant]

Do an ABS, T/C reset first. Use the cruise control to hold it at 20-19 MPH.

[DesertPilot]

Thanks for the suggestion.  I did try resetting the ABS/TC calibration once, but I'll give it another go not that I've... sigh... just finished cleaning and inspecting the calipers and flushing the brake fluid again.  I can't find a single thing wrong with the parts of the brake system I can reach.  I hope there isn't some problem with the ABS module...

[aklawok]

 Not being familiar with that system, could this simply be a brake light/switch fault?

[DesertPilot]

Someone on the Advrider forum suggested the brake light switch as well.  This can't be the warning I gather the E5 bikes might display if the brake light is one more than 30 seconds because I can get it to appear the first time I apply the brakes immediately after starting the engine, but I will poke around to verify that the switch is working.

My understanding is that the brake light switch may be a pressure sensor rather than a microswitch, which would mean that if I pull it, I'll have to bleed the brake system... again.  Does anyone here know if this is correct?

[Vagrant]

Any chance you are overfilling the reservoir? It does sound like the switch to me.

[Tom H]

If you need to change a pressure type switch. If your careful when you remove the switch and then apply just a little pressure on the brake pedal or lever to make leak at the fitting when installing, you should be good. I have done this in the past.

Tom

[DesertPilot]

Any chance you are overfilling the reservoir? It does sound like the switch to me.

The shop had filled the reservoir fairly high, close to the top, when they flushed the brake fluid.  I dropped the level slightly, to halfway between the top of the sight glass and the top, when I cleaned and inspected the calipers and flushed the system... again... yesterday.  I'm going to spritz the brake switch with contact cleaner because hey, who knows, then take the bike out for another test ride.

If you need to change a pressure type switch. If your careful when you remove the switch and then apply just a little pressure on the brake pedal or lever to make leak at the fitting when installing, you should be good. I have done this in the past.

Tom

Thanks for the tip!  I'm currently on the fence about ordering a new switch ($59 from AF1?) and going into Throw Parts At The Problem mode.  Since I'd have to figure out where that plug is buried anyway, first step might just be to unplug the current one, dig out my multimeter ("Heigh ho!  Heigh ho!  It's off to work we go!" etc.) , and see just what it's doing.

UPDATE: Careful (or so I claim) inspection has revealed that the switch on the E4 models is a simple  (and $59?) 3-wire microswitch mounted underneath the master cylinder to maximize the chance the mounting screws will fall to the floor, bounce, and roll into the Dimension Of Lost Small Parts if your remove it.  This inspection has also revealed that the brake light seems to be working normally.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I added an LED to the brake light on my V7III
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2019_V7_III_E4_Anniversary_-_Racer_-_Special.gif
The brake switches (12) & (13) the green/yellow wire is the switched wire
I picked up the switched wire at the front brake lever with a resistor to LED and LED to the bars (chassis)
the LED lights up if front or rear brake are applied.
Note: the bars were not grounded to chassis rubber mounted I guess but I found a pair of bolts under the triple tree which I jumped together.

Roy

[DesertPilot]

A short donut run to test the results of yesterday's caliper cleaning, fluid flushing, and other Obsessive-Compulsive behavior suggests that as long as the brakes are only in the 'warm to the touch' range, everything is fine.  Unfortunately, they didn't have the donut flavor I was looking for.  I'll have to do a longer ride on steeper roads to see what happens when the brakes get hotter and/or get the right donuts.

[Vagrant]

If the heat does make it act up, you have too much liquid in the reservoir. Have them level, and with the rubber and cap in place, have an air bubble being seen. The fluid needs expansion room.

[DesertPilot]

I took the bike out for a longer test ride and discovered several things

1) The problem isn't solved.  Darn!

2) It doesn't show up until 20-40 mile into a ride, usually on a long downhill section.

3) Contrary to my earlier suspicions, it does not seem to be heat-related, since the brakes are merely warm to the touch, and no warmer than usual.

4) There is no evidence the brakes are sticking, dragging, or have any problems at all.

5) The brake light also seems to be working fine.

6) The problem can occur at any speed, even stopped, so it can't be directly related to the ABS sensor and tone wheel.

7) The Alarm Service light comes on when I squeeze the brake lever, but not until I've squeezed it far enough to apply pressure, which suggests there's a pressure sensor in the E4 bikes.. somewhere...

8) The problem can go away if I stop to visit the restroom (How does it know?  is it watching?)

I imagine the bike may store information about the warning, but nothing shows up on my OBD scanner, and I have no idea if Guzzidiag can find these things.  I'm out of ideas.  Everything seems to be working fine.  Since the bike is due for its 18,600 mile service in 1200 miles, I may just wait until then and drop the problem in the shop's lap.
 

[Vagrant]

Last ideas. Clean the grounds at the battery and the engine. Any chance you might be accidentlly riding the rear brake lever?

[Boj1]

Looking forward to the solution. This sounds very similar to the problem on my wife's V85. Please keep us updated.

[DesertPilot]

Last ideas. Clean the grounds at the battery and the engine. Any chance you might be accidentlly riding the rear brake lever?

I've given those a look, and was careful to keep my foot off the rear brake during yesterday's tests.  Rear brake usage also could not explain why the light comes on if I start the engine, squeeze the front brake lever gently, then apply pressure.  I can see the light come on just as I begin to apply pressure, as if some pressure sensor in some inaccessible location buried deep in the bowels of some expensive, hard to source, and difficult to replace component is going, "Ho ho!  Squeeze that brake lever will you!  We'll just issue a weird and intermittent warning to keep you on your toes!"

I've checked everything withing easy reach.  The next step would be to pull the fuel tank and look around the top of the engine.  I may give this a go, but first I need to recover my morale, which has take a bit of a beating from the number of times I was sure I'd find the problem 

[Tom H]

So I RTFM'ed the owners manual for the V85. You might read from page 20 or start at 25 which mentions the Service light. Cadre Cycle has the manual if you don't.

Service light?? It appears that there is Service and Urgent Service. What do you have? Depending on what is coming up, the Service manual may have some info???

Just as an odd thought. There is a riding mode that you can get into that turns off ABS to the rear brake. Could this be a warning about that?? Like with traction control on at least V7's a light will flash as traction control is activated.

Another odd one. When the brake fluid was changed, was it the correct type? Dot 5 supposedly doesn't play well with ABS.

The front brake is only a electric switch. I "think" the rear is a pressure switch.

Guzzidiag can read only the ECU on the throttle body and see what codes are in there. It will not read the dash ECU which I believe you have as well. If you were a bit closer I have a scanner that I think will read the V85 dash, it will do the V7's. You are likely going to need to have a dealer hook up and see what stored and active errors it may have.

I do not know if this applies to the V85. On a Norge my scanner could not access the dash. I had to use the dash and it's menu and enter the dealer service code and look for codes that way.

Hope this may be of help??
Tom

[DesertPilot]

So I RTFM'ed the owners manual for the V85. You might read from page 20 or start at 25 which mentions the Service light. Cadre Cycle has the manual if you don't.

Service light?? It appears that there is Service and Urgent Service. What do you have? Depending on what is coming up, the Service manual may have some info???

Just as an odd thought. There is a riding mode that you can get into that turns off ABS to the rear brake. Could this be a warning about that?? Like with traction control on at least V7's a light will flash as traction control is activated.

Another odd one. When the brake fluid was changed, was it the correct type? Dot 5 supposedly doesn't play well with ABS.

The front brake is only a electric switch. I "think" the rear is a pressure switch.

Guzzidiag can read only the ECU on the throttle body and see what codes are in there. It will not read the dash ECU which I believe you have as well. If you were a bit closer I have a scanner that I think will read the V85 dash, it will do the V7's. You are likely going to need to have a dealer hook up and see what stored and active errors it may have.

I do not know if this applies to the V85. On a Norge my scanner could not access the dash. I had to use the dash and it's menu and enter the dealer service code and look for codes that way.

Hope this may be of help??
Tom

It's the 'Alarm Service' light, not 'Urgent Service' -- the latter would also put the bike into Limp Mode, which is hard to miss.  It's also DOT 4 brake fluid -- I checked.  TC is still in Street mode, with ABS on.  My copy of the service manual lists any number error codes that could be detected by the Diagnostic Tool I don't have, but this hasn't been of much help so far.

As I noted: 1) The brake light seems to work OK, which suggests the brake switch is working fine.  2) The warnjng doesn't come on when I start to squeeze the brake level, it comes on when I've squeezed the lever all the way and begun to apply pressure, which suggests there's pressure sensor involved somewhere.  I imagine there could be one in the ABS module, but I haven't found a description of how that's put together yet.

You raise some good points.  I'm going to look through every brake- and ABS-related error codes in service manual, followed by everything the have to say about installing and/or servicing the ABS module.  While this may not provide any answers, it's easier to clean up after reading a PDF file that it is to clean up tools 

UPDATE:  Nothing so far.  The brake system error codes in the serviced manual are only for the brake switch, and the ones for the ABS modulator are of the, "G'day, mate!  Here's a cryptic message for you to puzzle over while you replace the unrepairable black box from which they originated," variety.  I'll gird my teeth (or should that be grit my loins?) and check the switch again... but not this afternoon...

[Tom H]

As I noted: 1) The brake light seems to work OK, which suggests the brake switch is working fine.  2) The warnjng doesn't come on when I start to squeeze the brake level, it comes on when I've squeezed the lever all the way and begun to apply pressure, which suggests there's pressure sensor involved somewhere.

So when you start to squeeze the lever and the warning does not come on, is the rear brake light lit?

When you squeeze it ALL THE WAY, how much is all the way?? I'm sure you know, you should "start" feeling "some" pressure very shortly after starting to squeezing the lever. If you pulling to the handle bar grip, then that might be your issue??

As a thought on this... MAYBE if there is air in the front line the system MAY detect it???? Again, just a thought, I do not know enough about ABS systems.

I so think it's time to get ALL the codes read including the dash.

Tom

[DesertPilot]

So when you start to squeeze the lever and the warning does not come on, is the rear brake light lit?

When you squeeze it ALL THE WAY, how much is all the way?? I'm sure you know, you should "start" feeling "some" pressure very shortly after starting to squeezing the lever. If you pulling to the handle bar grip, then that might be your issue??

As a thought on this... MAYBE if there is air in the front line the system MAY detect it???? Again, just a thought, I do not know enough about ABS systems.

I so think it's time to get ALL the codes read including the dash.

Tom

Good question.  I'd checked this on the last test ride.  The sequence of events is

1) I begin to squeeze the brake lever
2) The brake light comes on as the microswitch activates.
3) Pressure increases as the lever approaches the limits of its travel -- presumably as the pads grip the rotor -- and the Alarm Service warning comes on.

I doubt there's air in the system, for it isn't even remotely spongy.  If anything, I've would have wondered if it was too firm and a caliper was frozen were it not for the facts that 1) the pistons moved just fine when I pulled the calipers to inspect them and 2) the brakes show no sign of dragging, overheating, or any of the misbehavior one might expect.

Since I already have the adaptor, I'm going to pootle around with the 'Faults' option on Guzzidiag to see if it can read any codes.  Since I've never used it, this could become an adventure, but surely it can't be that much harder to figure out than MelcoDiag was for She Who Must Be Obeyed's Ducati Scrambler...

[PJPR01]

Does this bike have a brake sensor on either the rear or front?  Damaged or nicked wire perhaps near the wheel?  I had a brake sensor issue on my Norge as a result of a shop action due to a poorly removed front wheel for a tire change and found the cable housing had been nicked at the time...had to replace the sensor and wiring.

Have you visually inspected the brake pads to see if they are thin or worn down yet or unevenly worn?

Sticky caliper perhaps?

Last time the brakes were bled?  Using a speed bleeder could be a fast way to take care of this anyway if you are a DIY'er.

[Tom H]

So your  having the issue of the light. Can this be replicated while the bike is off and parked? Do you need to go for a ride and then it can be replicated while stopped?

If the above can be done...

Does the warning light come on at the same time as the brake light comes on?

You wrote "3) Pressure increases as the lever approaches the limits of its travel -- presumably as the pads grip the rotor -- and the Alarm Service warning comes on."

What is "the limits of it's travel"? As I mentioned, you should start feeling "some" pressure (as in the lever starts moving with your pinky on it and not trying to pull) within a 1/4 pull of the lever travel. If you start feeling "pinky" pressure when your almost to the grip, there is a problem, though I do not know if that would cause the warning light to come on.

I just tried my only two bikes with disc brakes. I can only pull the lever to about a finger thickness from the grip. This is with pulling pretty much as hard as I can while parked, I would have locked the front wheel way before this.

I am also assuming that you have a stock set of levers, not some custom adjustable levers for the likes of short fingers.

Sorry to ask so many questions. Your issue has me interested in finding the solution. Computer bikes can be a pain to diagnose!!!!!!!

Wish you were closer so I could have a look see,
Tom

[DesertPilot]

So your  having the issue of the light. Can this be replicated while the bike is off and parked? Do you need to go for a ride and then it can be replicated while stopped?

If the above can be done...

Does the warning light come on at the same time as the brake light comes on?

You wrote "3) Pressure increases as the lever approaches the limits of its travel -- presumably as the pads grip the rotor -- and the Alarm Service warning comes on."

What is "the limits of it's travel"? As I mentioned, you should start feeling "some" pressure (as in the lever starts moving with your pinky on it and not trying to pull) within a 1/4 pull of the lever travel. If you start feeling "pinky" pressure when your almost to the grip, there is a problem, though I do not know if that would cause the warning light to come on.

I just tried my only two bikes with disc brakes. I can only pull the lever to about a finger thickness from the grip. This is with pulling pretty much as hard as I can while parked, I would have locked the front wheel way before this.

I am also assuming that you have a stock set of levers, not some custom adjustable levers for the likes of short fingers.

Sorry to ask so many questions. Your issue has me interested in finding the solution. Computer bikes can be a pain to diagnose!!!!!!!

Wish you were closer so I could have a look see,
Tom

I tried to answer these question but as often happens, I was unclear.  Alas

Yes, after the problem appears 20-40 miles into a ride, I can replicate it with the bike stopped and the engine running in neutral.  That was the next thing I checked after I stopped to feel how hot the rotors weren't.

Note that the problem doesn't appear until 20-40 miles into a ride.

The warning light comes on well after the brake light comes on.  The brake light comes on as I begin to squeeze the lever -- I just went put to the garage to check One More Time.  The warning light doesn't come on until later, as pressure approaches maximum -- about a finger thickness worth of pull, just as you mentioned.

I still believe the next step should be to see what codes, if any, Guzzidiag can read, followed by a quest to discover what any codes might mean.  Since I have to finish all the work I put off while doing that test ride (to the beach, of course, but how can it be a real test ride if it doesn't run out to the beach?), and She Who Must be Obeyed is going to demand we go paragliding again this weekend, this might not happen for a few days, unless I can squeeze it in tomorrow.

[Tom H]

Thanks for that info. Interesting the warning light comes on with heavy braking??? Sorta was hoping it came on as the brake light came on.

GD should read the engine control codes. The latest version of GD can look at the ABS system IIRR, it's near the bottom of the bike model choices. I "think" it will read the ABS through the standard diagnostic connector??? Never tried it. Dash codes are a dealer thing.

Wish I could be of more help,
Tom

[DesertPilot]

The thlot pickens...

After rooting around to find the right connectors ("Triumph... Ducati... ah, here's the one for the Guzzi!"), I got Guzzidiag v0.60 to connect to the bike.  There were no new erro codes, but there were two saved ones:

P0564 - invalid signal
P1607 - data file saved (invalid signal)

I gather from poking around the web that P1607 just means, "I saved some stuff," and isn't an error message in its own right.  This leaves the P0564 message, and since 'invalid signal' seems to rank up there with, "Reply hazy, try again later," when it comes to information content, the mystery becomes...

What does P0564 really mean?

A search on the web suggests that on some cars, it's a problem with the cruise control.  I see no reason to believe it means the same thing on a V85TT, the closest thing I've found on any list of Guzzi codes was P0560, and I haven't found any clue as to what P0564 actually could mean.

Do any of you wiser minds happen to know, or have a link to a source of information?

[michaell32]

This is all I could find.  Hope it helps.  All this technology put into these bikes seem to cause more problems than they are worth.
P0564 : Cruise ctrl/brake switch button : Access instrument cluster diagnostic function > Cruise control deactivated Access instrument cluster diagnostic function
This is where I found it.
https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/error-codes-for-5am-7sm-ecus.7966/

[DesertPilot]

This is all I could find.  Hope it helps.  All this technology put into these bikes seem to cause more problems than they are worth.
P0564 : Cruise ctrl/brake switch button : Access instrument cluster diagnostic function > Cruise control deactivated Access instrument cluster diagnostic function
This is where I found it.
https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/error-codes-for-5am-7sm-ecus.7966/

I hadn't found that page.  Thanks!

I've begin to wonder of the battery might be an issue.  I thought I'd replaced it, but when I checked my notes, I discovered I'd only replaced the batteries on the other two bikes in the garage.  Oops.  This is the original 5-year old battery.  And the bike has gotten a wee but slower to start.

I'll swap in a new one.  They're cheap, and its due, so I won't feel like I'm just throwing parts at a problem.

UPDATE: The more I think about this, the more I begin to wonder.  Intermittent problem... obscure error codes that don't seem to match the symptoms... may be getting worse with time... shows up at low RPM... that sort of thing can happen on modern vehicles when the battery gets old -- we just went through this on She Who Must Be Obeyed's Jeep.  I ordered a new Yuasa YTX14-BS.  It should arrive Tuesday.  We shall see...