Norge Charging at 13.0 Volts - seems low

[PJPR01]

Your profile lists a 2008 Norge

I don't see wiring for a 2008 but here's a Griso of that year
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Griso_8V.gif

I wonder if its possible the feed from the headlight relay is low, i think that provides excitation to the alternator from the headlight relay.

The diagram shows a GPS coupling (7) measure voltage from there to Battery Positive, it should read quite low e.g. < 0.2 Volts.

I suggest you try a new temporary wire from the alternator L terminal to touch on the battery, any change in Voltage?

Thanks Roy...I've read this a couple of times, but trying to understanding something basic.  What I'm interpreting from above is that somehow the headlight relay (which gets its power from the battery?) is providing some sort of boost to the alternator to generator voltage which then feeds back to all of the wiring on the bike? 

When you say the feed from the headlight relay...can you clarify from where to where you mean on this? 

Thanks...I'm a luddite on the electrical diagrams...

[kingoffleece]

All that said, you are correct.  13 volts is too low.  13.9 to 14 is where it needs to be.

[PJPR01]

Finally found a quality alternator shop in the industrial side of Houston....what a cool place.  Warehouse full of alternators, testing equipment, real old fashioned garage...full analog, with a testing device hooked up to a dot matrix printer!

Well the alternator is apparently in perfect working order!  Putting out proper amps and voltage...and the brushes were still fresh per the tester who opened it up and looked inside.  This guy has been working at this shop for 35 of the 40 years it's been open...so I feel good about his assessment.  On one hand this is good news as sourcing a replacement alternator has not yielded anything solid yet.  AF1 says they can get it by end of July for a reasonable price, all others are either used on Ebay or 500 Euros from Europe.

So...looks like I'm going to have to do wire and relay testing now as suggested above...oh joy!  Time to remove all of the zip ties along the wiring harness, check for crimps and end to end continuity.  What fun awaits for the next few evenings.  Hopefully something obvious surfaces thru the inspection.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Some interesting stats there. 
The set output voltage is lower than what I expected to see, in general terms, though seems consistent with the readings that others have noted, at the dash etc. AGM batteries in particular, like a little bit higher charge voltage.
It looks as though your alternator has an integral regulator/rectifier, ruling out my suggestion of testing connections to/from them.

I'm curious as to how much this cost you (ballpark figure is fine) - just being nosy.

Good luck with tracing the source of the problem. Voltage drops are most likely from poor connections, rather than threadbare wiring, IME.

[PJPR01]

The guys at the alternator shop refused to let me pay them for the testing…I insisted but they refused, just asked for a referral and in case of a repair, I'd go back to them.  Fair enough!

The rectifier/regular is indeed built in, but I have to assume it's working properly, based on the readout/testing he did.

Have tried leaving a couple of messages for Mike at MPH, but no replies yet...I"m guessing he's up to his eyeballs in work, so I may swing by there on the weekend to chat if I can't find any obvious issues in the wiring or relays.

[guzzisteve]

There you have it, big wires rule. Glad you had it checked. At least you know it's OK. Welcome to my world, one reason I retired. Old tiny wires turn to carbon before big wires. Happily owning older reliable Guzzi's w/bigger wires and no gadgets. CARC bikes are now approaching 20yrs old.

[SemperVee]

 Paul, following -  feeling your pain Norge brother with my own starter/wire challenges.

[PJPR01]

Paul, following -  feeling your pain Norge brother with my own starter/wire challenges.

Hey Mike!  I'm following your thread also on the solenoid! 

I'm going to take my time and be patient with it, which means the Griso will be coming with me to Wisconsin rather than the Norge.   I'm going connector by connector, opening them up, applying de-oxit and looking for any crimped items.  I found a Hella 5 way relay...I presume that's the headlight one referred to by Kiwi Roy...so I've cleaned that also.  Lots of wire grooming again to do, tucking, taping, folding with as few bends as possible and then I can begin the testing with the voltmeter to look for continuity.

In the meantime, doing some degreasing, general cleaning and tomorrow I'll do the inner plugs as well.

Hopefully I'll get lucky and it will all work!  I'm still waiting to hear if Mike at MPH has a spare alternator before I buy one from AF1 to have as a backup, as these things seem to be getting quite rare to find, and parts are probably even harder than a whole one.  I sent a note to Baboon in the Netherlands to ask if the used one they have on Ebay has been load tested...awaiting a reply as well.

[Kiwi_Roy]

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Griso_8V.gif
This drawing shows a wire from terminal L of the alternator
If you trace it backwards from L it comes from the relay no 6 pin 5

It's anybodies guess what Luigi threw at the bike on the day yours was put together

I believe that wire provides 12 Volts to the internal Voltage regulator and is also used to feedback the battery level so the alternator knows when to throttle back.
I think I suggested to temporarily replace that wire with one you can touch on the battery that way you can guarantee the alternator has 12 Volts and knows what the battery Voltage is.

[blackcat]

Where exactly is relay #6?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Where exactly is relay #6?

That's anyones guess Under the tank, under the side cover I can't see the bike either.
It makes sense to me that the alternator only needs to measure the battery Voltage when the engine is running otherwise current will be going to the field
Most Guzzis turn on the headlight once it is running

[blackcat]

I'll see if I can trace that wire when I take the gas tank off of my bike but I think there is a relay on the frame for the fairing.

[PJPR01]

I believe I have found the culprit after examining every single wiring connector up and down the bike while it's wide open. 

Alternator tested just fine, so it has been reinstalled.  Inner spark plugs changed (even found a Champion plug that is identical to the NGK at 1/3 of the price).  Engine degreased and looking quite new. 

Part # 977520 which is the wiring harness that goes from the positive on the starter to a double rubber fuse box block to positive on the battery cable.  At least 2 of the wires are not showing continuity when tested with my voltmeter/amp meter, and all 4 of the wires are severely oxidized and shredded and quite a few of the strands are broken, so I'm obviously not getting full current flow here.

Unfortunately this part is on backorder with every MG supplier, and even with Moto Guzzi itself.  I may have to rebuild it...unless...by any chance does anyone have this part lying around in good shape?  If so...please let me know!  Thanks in advance!

Update:  May have a spot of luck here today with AF1, they showed 1 in stock, so I've ordered it.  Hopefully it truly is in stock and will be shipped.  I had the same issue with Harpers, but Curtis and I spoke and he didn't actually have it in stock even though the website showed it in his inventory.

Second update:  I've figured out how to rebuild it just in case the harness doesn't get delivered.  Have ordered a couple of waterproof wide fuse blocks, easy enough to splice into the existing harness and re-attach in case I have to go this route.

[Kiwi_Roy]

That is fugly for sure, lucky it didn't let out some magic smoke.
Are those the two fuses shown next to the battery item (23) Lower RH side of the schematic?
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Griso_8V.gif

You might be able to replace that mess with a pair of these from Nappa https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/GRO822209
I would try to replace the wire all the way from the battery
Invest in a little tub of Vaseline dip the wires in it before you crimp them and the copper won't oxidize. slather it on the battery posts, smear it on the fuse blades.

Vaseline, if its good enough for a babies bum, its good enough for your Guzzi.

[blackcat]

I wonder how the wires got that bad? It's almost like someone was pulling on the fuse block and yanked the wires out of the housing.

It might be worth investigating mine as my Norge charging is only reaching 13.5 volts which is enough to keep the battery up but clearly there is something wrong somewhere.

[PJPR01]

That is fugly for sure, lucky it didn't let out some magic smoke.
Are those the two fuses shown next to the battery item (23) Lower RH side of the schematic?
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Griso_8V.gif

You might be able to replace that mess with a pair of these from Nappa https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/GRO822209
I would try to replace the wire all the way from the battery
Invest in a little tub of Vaseline dip the wires in it before you crimp them and the copper won't oxidize. slather it on the battery posts, smear it on the fuse blades.

Vaseline, if its good enough for a babies bum, its good enough for your Guzzi.

Thanks Roy...those are the exact items I ordered (different brand) last night in case I have to splice in and repair. 

The wiring diagram - exactly, this is post 23 for the fuses that connects 24 and 25 - so from Positive Starter pole to fuses in a rubber block to Positive Battery.   The only difference I see on this wiring diagram vs. my Norge setup is that I also have a cable from the Negative Post on the battery back to the starter/engine housing.  I've also checked that connection...nice and clean.

Good tip on the Vaseline...I'll be using that when re-assembling everything and also on the battery posts.

Hoping this fixes the charging problem, but for sure these wires needed to be replaced anyway!

I suspect that with years of moving wires around, changing batteries I've tugged on these a bit and they are exposed.  I may see on the new wiring loom if they are exposed, I'll wrap them in electrical tape for some protection.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The schematic may be a bit misleading, it shows a red wire from the battery to the starter branching off to the fuse block.
In reality I think you will find a fat Unfusedwire from battery + to the starter solenoid, I suspect there will be another smaller wire going from battery + to the fuses.

It's a little hard frothy pictures to see where the wires go but No 3 seems to show the fat wire and two reds in the same lug
I would tidy up the fat wire and use  separate yellow lug for the wire to the fuses

Good luck with the wiring, reach out if you have any questions

is the issue put to bed now?

Roy

[PJPR01]

SUCCESS!!!  Got the new part from AF1...it was like Xmas in July opening the package!

All reinstalled today, and now charging at 14.2 volts with just a quick few minutes testing in the garage!!  What a happy thing to see after all of that disassembly and assembly...bike started up right away, all good!

Very happy to see that resolved the charging issue, some of the benefits of taking the bike apart were a nice degreasing, changing of inner spark plugs, cleaning every single connector with Caig DeOxit, re-grooming of some of the wires along the frame, fresh zip ties, inspection of the alternator and belt (both good).  Also wiring in a new illuminated switch for my driving lights as the last one no longer illuminates at night.

Now that I have all of my plastic bits off, I'm going to try a painting experiment as well...what the hell!

[Huzo]

 

[SemperVee]

  Congrats Paul - Love a story with a Happy ending!   I know after my recent ordeal with wiring and ignition I feel a renewed sense of relief and excitement for VroomHilda!...  I'm thinking of permanently slicing off the middle part of the fairing to further expose the beautiful motor and have easier access to dip stick etc.  I already run with the lowers removed.

[PJPR01]

  Congrats Paul - Love a story with a Happy ending!   I know after my recent ordeal with wiring and ignition I feel a renewed sense of relief and excitement for VroomHilda!...  I'm thinking of permanently slicing off the middle part of the fairing to further expose the beautiful motor and have easier access to dip stick etc.  I already run with the lowers removed.

Thanks Mike!  Very happy indeed with the results.  A naked Norge is a Breva basically.  Seeing the engine lump is kind of cool though.

I know that having the fairings off makes it easier access for a lot of items.  I do like the functionality also of the fairings for wind management which is superb on the Norge.  I am contending with a slightly broken tab on a lower part of the fairing that I need to get plastic bonded.  Once all of that is sorted, I'm going to paint all of the fairings a new color...time for an update after all of the years.

[blackcat]

I spent the morning checking the belt on the generator thinking that might be an issue for my Norge and it was a little loose, but made no difference on the charging when tightened up.  Double checked the 40amp fuse block for the generator, sprayed it down with DeOxit and switched to another fuse, then it went from 13.5 to 13.6-7 when the engine is revved up but settles to 13.5 at idle. My next hunt is for the #6 light relay but have no idea where that is located. I'm hoping that some dirty relay contacts will solve this problem but first I need to find the relay. Also cleaned up the positive harness contact to the battery but haven't checked the ground strap which might be a problem now that I think about it. The dashboard reading of the battery is way off but I remember a time when it was spot on, now it reads 12.5-6 when the meter directly attached to the battery reads 13.5.

[SemperVee]

Thanks Mike!  Very happy indeed with the results.  A naked Norge is a Breva basically.  Seeing the engine lump is kind of cool though.

I know that having the fairings off makes it easier access for a lot of items.  I do like the functionality also of the fairings for wind management which is superb on the Norge.  I am contending with a slightly broken tab on a lower part of the fairing that I need to get plastic bonded.  Once all of that is sorted, I'm going to paint all of the fairings a new color...time for an update after all of the years.

I removed the lower fairing because I think it looks better and allows my legs to feel cooler. I really appreciate the upper fairing and windshield the most. What color are you considering for the paint job?

[SemperVee]

I spent the morning checking the belt on the generator thinking that might be an issue for my Norge and it was a little loose, but made no difference on the charging when tightened up.  Double checked the 40amp fuse block for the generator, sprayed it down with DeOxit and switched to another fuse, then it went from 13.5 to 13.6-7 when the engine is revved up but settles to 13.5 at idle. My next hunt is for the #6 light relay but have no idea where that is located. I'm hoping that some dirty relay contacts will solve this problem but first I need to find the relay. Also cleaned up the positive harness contact to the battery but haven't checked the ground strap which might be a problem now that I think about it. The dashboard reading of the battery is way off but I remember a time when it was spot on, now it reads 12.5-6 when the meter directly attached to the battery reads 13.5.

I get the exact same reading on my Norge as you do with the handheld expensive volt meter versus what the dash says.

[PJPR01]

I removed the lower fairing because I think it looks better and allows my legs to feel cooler. I really appreciate the upper fairing and windshield the most. What color are you considering for the paint job?

Right now, the color of choice is Loire Blue...it matches one of my cars, and I happen to have several cans of it available.  First though I'm going to test if I can prep by sanding one of the less visible plastic pieces, wet sand it, fine sand it and get it smoothly prepped.  If one piece goes well, I'll slowly work my way thru the rest of the pieces.  I've got a handheld battery powered rotary sander with a 3 inch wheel to test out.  I've painted some other parts in the past w/o prepping, and the paint holds decently well, but given that the fairing and related plastic parts all were factory painted and with clear coat, I need to prep all of that well so the paint would look decent.

Worst case scenario, I mess it up, and then I'll take it to a good body shop and have them paint it professionally.  :)

[PJPR01]

I spent the morning checking the belt on the generator thinking that might be an issue for my Norge and it was a little loose, but made no difference on the charging when tightened up.  Double checked the 40amp fuse block for the generator, sprayed it down with DeOxit and switched to another fuse, then it went from 13.5 to 13.6-7 when the engine is revved up but settles to 13.5 at idle. My next hunt is for the #6 light relay but have no idea where that is located. I'm hoping that some dirty relay contacts will solve this problem but first I need to find the relay. Also cleaned up the positive harness contact to the battery but haven't checked the ground strap which might be a problem now that I think about it. The dashboard reading of the battery is way off but I remember a time when it was spot on, now it reads 12.5-6 when the meter directly attached to the battery reads 13.5.

It's not easy always to identify where the increased resistance is coming from, but with a good volt meter and pointed ends, you can connect to each end of the wire, and the circuit should show zero Ohms indicating full continuity.  If there's no reading, as was the case in 2 of the 4 wires on my positive wiring harness, it became clear that I was not getting all the required voltage charging that was required.  How does your wiring look and have you also tried sanding lightly the wires, main connectors that attach to the battery for a very clean surface to battery post connection?

[blackcat]

“How does your wiring look and have you also tried sanding lightly the wires, main connectors that attach to the battery for a very clean surface to battery post connection?“

The section that you replaced is absolutely fine on my bike and I just filed down all the main wires to the positive side of the battery but I need to go back and check the negative connections. Maybe I’ll temporarily run another negative strap to the engine and see what happens. At 13.5-7 the battery is being charged and it is rotated on and off with a battery charger but I’d like to hunt this down and get it resolved.

[Kiwi_Roy]

“How does your wiring look and have you also tried sanding lightly the wires, main connectors that attach to the battery for a very clean surface to battery post connection?“

The section that you replaced is absolutely fine on my bike and I just filed down all the main wires to the positive side of the battery but I need to go back and check the negative connections. Maybe I’ll temporarily run another negative strap to the engine and see what happens. At 13.5-7 the battery is being charged and it is rotated on and off with a battery charger but I’d like to hunt this down and get it resolved.

If you are going to sand down the terminals and put them back dry - Don't. Always smear them with a little vaseline it will prevent the formation of Lead Oxide. Lead Oxide is an insulator, it can completely disconnect the battery even though the bolt is tight.
Same for Ground wires, always put on a little magic grease before re-connection. The grease will prevent Oxide forming.

[DoubleGuzzi]

If you are going to sand down the terminals and put them back dry - Don't. Always ..

LMFTFY.