Convert Torque Converter Q

[wirespokes]

I'm bringing a 76 Convert back to life, registration expired 26 years ago. I've spent a while taking care of the obvious stuff like wiring issues, brakes, carbs and all that. I didn't have any gas so squirted some ether on the pod filters and she started right up.

However...

There was a loud clanking noise. It sounds like it's coming from down low.

The oil light goes out almost instantly, so don't believe it's anything to do with the engine.

The idea I have is it's something to do with the torque converter. Perhaps the pump, and all the oil has drained out of the torque converter? I don't know, I'm the newbie here on this one.

Is there something I should do, some sort of service or something, to the torque converter/transmission after sitting so long? Any idea what the clanking noise could be?

Any insights or help are surely appreciated.

[guzzisteve]

Fill the tank w/fresh trans fluid, run it. It should not be having noises if fluid fills the bowl and all is good. Clanking may be the thin flywheel is broke. Look in the inspection hole & or take out the starter. Wouldn't hurt to prefill pump. Been a long time since I worked on one 20yrs.

[wirespokes]

I just got a lengthy message from rodekyll outlining torque converter operation and what to look for. One of the things mentioned was broken flywheel - and that's something I've heard of before.

The story on the bike is that it belonged to Dave Richardson. It may have 1100 cylinders and heads, but it's got 41mm Dellortos. Wheels were changed to next size wider Akronts (no lips) and the newer brake discs with the lighter weight button carriers. It had the Marzocchi front end with F09 Calipers - front and rear. It's also got the newer permanent magnet charging system and Dyna 3. Stainless headers.

I got it from the person who got it from Dave 20 years ago. Dave agreed to replace the fork tubes, but somehow the shop never could get it right or get it done, so the bike went back home. I bought it with the front end all apart. I'd put it back together, except one of the fork sliders has a quarter-sized chunk missing where the seal goes. Wonder how that happened? (don't answer) I need to find a good welder to replace the metal then get it machined back as it should be.

So that's the story of why it's been sitting so long. The PO knows nothing about any clanking noise - it was running fine last time he ran it. And, according to him, it's a very strong runner.

According to rodekyll, there's nothing in the t/c (torque converter) that can make clanking noises. I can't imagine any of the valve actuating gear being the source - I removed the right side valve cover and watched while it ran for a few moments. All normal there.

I think the prognosis of a broken flywheel makes the most sense. Especially with a hot-rodded engine. And the PO has a story of drag racing a Goldwing and inching ahead.

Thank you Steve - and rodekyll - I'll remove the starter and take a look inside.

[Dave Swanson]

I just brought mine back from laying fallow about that long.  18 years waiting at my place and quite a few years at the fellow who sold it to me.  I thought it may never get finished but I finally got it done a couple months ago.  They are worth the effort.  Nothing like them out there for a riding experience.

[n3303j]

Thought they wouldn't start when the flywheel fractured as starter turns engine through the flywheel connection to the crankshaft?

[wirespokes]

I've heard that many times, Dave. I've also heard of guys who got into sidecars and didn't ride two-wheelers after that. I can't imagine an automatic 'grabbing' me, or a hack, for that matter. It seems odd that guys get so hooked on them.

I'm guessing yours didn't make any knocking noises on first startup.

I pulled the starter and rotated the flywheel both directions. It looked normal to me, so put the starter back on. I think I'll give it some gas and see what happens.

[guzzisteve]

There is more than 1 spot weld so it can crank & be fractured. Fill it & run before you pull it off. I would source a HD flywheel. & you need a dial indicator to set it centered.

[Dave Swanson]

I've heard that many times, Dave. I've also heard of guys who got into sidecars and didn't ride two-wheelers after that. I can't imagine an automatic 'grabbing' me, or a hack, for that matter. It seems odd that guys get so hooked on them.

I'm guessing yours didn't make any knocking noises on first startup.

I pulled the starter and rotated the flywheel both directions. It looked normal to me, so put the starter back on. I think I'll give it some gas and see what happens.

Converts have a charm all to their own.  Similar to being attracted to a woman that you never thought would be your "type" 

Mine made no strange noises.  Here is a short video of the first startup after probably 30 years.

https://youtu.be/jfNGRLsGJz0?si=HuASDLkrVT6WNOzi

[chuck peterson]

WAG from 2000 miles, the first thought that crossed my mind

Trashed universal joint….making angry noises

My second idea…on one of three vert ring gear setups, I believe the outer ring would stay attached while the inner parts shear, leaving you with no forward motion at the rear wheel. Ring gear looks fine but the damage is near the crank


Have you tried to make it move forward? Never mind bad idea…don’t do that…no starting till the loud noise is found.

Spin the motor slowly from an allen key in the front rotor till you narrow down where it’s coming from, plugs out

Strong lamp past the skinny flimsy flywheel ring gear

Also

Turning the rear wheel slowly (nope, slower…) back and forth may show you resistance or breakage of the universal joint, and in my case it still got me 50 miles home…Pope’s Blessing

I remember Dr Dave talking about his Vert, great stuff …didn’t he pack it in after something broke?

So the memorial Rodekyll is still out there…I salute you.

I just brought mine back from laying fallow about that long.  18 years waiting at my place and quite a few years at the fellow who sold it to me.  I thought it may never get finished but I finally got it done a couple months ago.  They are worth the effort.  Nothing like them out there for a riding experience.

My favorite experiences on verts related to adjusting foot and hand braking (trail braking) on corner entry speeds while keeping the throttle open and steady, usually in low range for me…when you start releasing up the braking, the vert is already chuffing away in the 4-6k range, leaving everyone else doing the clutch/shift/throttle/stop braking 4 handed jiggerjogger dance.

On a vert, you twist the throttle. Now multiply that difference over a 4 week trip..

You can accelerate much much harder than you think it should.

It’s a very strange effect indeed. Give it 5k in practice

[chuck peterson]

Thought they wouldn't start when the flywheel fractured as starter turns engine through the flywheel connection to the crankshaft?

Yup well duh!…I need more coffee..

[wirespokes]

Put a gallon in the tank and started it up. No unusual noises what-so-ever. But I did top up the oil tank. The level was a little low but couldn't have been more than half a cup. The problem is I couldn't see the level on the dipstick, but I could tell it wasn't up to the low mark. Now the level is above the low mark, but not up to the high. I didn't dare add more, being concerned about overfilling - Dave Richardson warns against that.

That was the only change from before with the clanking. Now it runs fine. But I need to replace the Voltage Regulator. It got fried accidentally, so I'm shopping for a new one. Is there a down side to getting a $30 item on ebay (probably Chinese) versus a $150 one from the dealer?
 

[Bulldog9]

I love the Convert. It has its own personality. It is surprisingly fast (well up to 90), and builds speed in a way that can take you by surprise.  However, it is the first bike that speaks to me and tells me to SLOW down and enjoy. Some of that is the foot forward seating position (helps if you put your toes on the rear of the floor boards) and that the knee joint it above the angle of the tank. I feel like I am sitting higher up and don't have knee traction so to speak.

I went out and took some pictures of my spare light and heavy flywheel/driveplate and ring gear. Looking at the parts Fiche, it looks like the convertor is bolted between the ring gear and flywheel. So if yours is bad/center torn out of light plate, the starter would just spin the flywheel. Thus, I doubt that your flywheel is bad. You may have something loose in there? And what about the dry plate clutch unit? That may be the source of your sound.

I'm sure you've looked here, but Greg Bender has a great resource https://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_i-convert.html

Microfiche of Convert Driveplate/flywheel




Pictures of different Flywheels.






Light is on the left, heavy on the right. You can see how the center plate is welded to the stamped steel. The heavy looks to be milled from one piece of metal. It is much heavier and solid where the stamped steel is very light. Reportedly, the heavier flywheel (as expected) takes some of the liveliness out of the motor. THe thing really scoots in low range.  This is where it tears. Lot's of opinions on how/why they tear. Some (like mine) are the light plate and original, and have over 40K miles. From talking to Dave Richardson, Greg Bender, Curtis Harper and Charlie Mullendore, I've gathered that alignment is key. If properly aligned, they can go and go without issue. But if a little out, the constant stress will cause the stamped steel to tear and you are dead. I did my restoration on my Convert 5 years ago, and took the 'if it made it this far, leave it until it breaks. Same for the fluid pump drive key. I do have the spares for if/when the day comes.

My restoration certainly isn't Dave Swanson level, but I love this thing. Just did 200 miles in the Blueridge last weekend. Small Screen for Summer, large for Fall to Spring. When I was reassembling after Paint (Ford Race Red) I took some pics. It looks great without the bags too, but they are a PITA to take on and off, and they come in handy for shopping or smuggling small people.








I don't get to ride it enough.

[pressureangle]

Put a gallon in the tank and started it up. No unusual noises what-so-ever. But I did top up the oil tank. The level was a little low but couldn't have been more than half a cup. The problem is I couldn't see the level on the dipstick, but I could tell it wasn't up to the low mark. Now the level is above the low mark, but not up to the high. I didn't dare add more, being concerned about overfilling - Dave Richardson warns against that.

That was the only change from before with the clanking. Now it runs fine. But I need to replace the Voltage Regulator. It got fried accidentally, so I'm shopping for a new one. Is there a down side to getting a $30 item on ebay (probably Chinese) versus a $150 one from the dealer?

|

The downside is the possibility that the regulator will be bad out of the box, or undercharges, or overcharges, or explodes in a ball of fire while you're hours from home.
In reality, they seem to work fine. I don't use anything but Shendingen regulators (unless I can't fit one, like on my '97 1100 Sport) They're larger than stock but take 2- or 3- wire alternators, easy to wire, never fail.
https://roadstercycle.com/

[n3303j]

If it's the Bosch charging system like my '77 T3 then just buy the $20 solid state regulator from Euro Moto Electrics.
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/vr-ext.htm
Been running this one for almost 20 years into an Odyssey 925 with zero issues. (Did have one rotor go intermittent).
EME is a good & reputable source for Moto Guzzi spares.

[n3303j]

Looked at the adjustable unit and figured the potentiometer was just another place for water to get into the unit so I stuck with the totally potted unit. I think it's hard set for 14.2 VDC.