[RESOLVED] Strange Sounds After Valve Adjustment

[valerbear97]

I have a 2024 V7 Special with a 1000 miles on it, and I just completed the first "break-in" maintenance on it. I changed the oil, the oil filter, the air filter, and did the valve adjustments. I watched several videos ahead of time on how to do each step and also have the official service manual which I referred to throughout the process, so I think I did everything right. Bike came back together alright and it runs, but it sounds a bit strange now and its different than the sound from before I worked on it. To my ear, left cylinder sounds a little louder and it sounds like there's some of click clack noise. I did ride the bike gently up and down the block after I was done to get the oil circulated, and everything seems to be working but its just the noises are concerning. Any chance I messed up doing the valve clearances and its causing these sounds? Planning to open it up again and just double-check my work but wanted to see what other folks think.

Here's a 30sec video of what it sounds like, to me its like all the bass is gone at idle but I'm not sure if thats due to valve adjustment problems or the covers for the heads not being secured tightly enough or something else entirely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAK8bLnPBBU

[Dirk_S]

First off—I’d never recommend doing a valve adjustment job yourself if you’ve never done one. There are nuances that can be missed, and despite people saying “these engines are easy to work on”, you have to remember that we as a society have largely moved on from maintenance jobs that were normally done by the common, informed rider. Kinda like how half the people out there don’t know how to do an oil change, except when it comes to valves, there’s a bit more care to take. Best to have someone knowledgeable that you trust be with you on your first adjustment or two. Pay a mechanic to watch you if you must.

That out of the way, is there any chance you may have missed TDC (top dead center) on combustion stroke and instead got it on the exhaust stroke? That would possibly have led to the intake being slightly open and messing up your adjustment. Also, you need to make sure that you get BOTH pistons at TDC on compression stroke for their respective adjustment, which means rotating the engine for each side.

Properly adjusted valves will have a little clackity noise to them. The key—and this bumps back to the first paragraph—is to know what’s proper and what isn’t. If one cylinder is louder than the other, then that sounds like something is off.

If the sound is significantly noticeable, I’d park it and recheck them considering this is your first time.

(I say all this as a once first-timer)

[valerbear97]

Thanks for the input! Here's what I did and just want to make sure I didn't miss a step:
1) Raise the bike on the centerstand so the rear wheel is off the ground.
2) Take off the cover and pull the sparkplugs on each side
3) On the left side, find TDC and do the intake then exhaust valve
4) On the right side, find TDC again and do the intake then the exhaust valve
5) Replace spark plugs, covers, etc and set the bike back down

Yeah my guess is maybe I didn't correctly find TDC and thats whats causing the issue? I was using the zip tie method but it felt a bit like guesswork (agreeing with your point here about doing work you haven't done before can be tricky). Is there any other more reliable way to find TDC or do folks have any tips for this part of the process? I am not sure if the TDC I used was on the combustion or exhaust stroke but would love to learn and understand this better!

Here is a video of what the bike sounds like currently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAK8bLnPBBU

[Dirk_S]

Just saw the video. Recorded audio can sometimes be nefarious to the ears, but taking that into consideration, I agree that sounds wrong.

For TDC on compression stroke, the intake will open, then close. Then the piston reaches the top.

I use a straw with lines marked with a sharpie to help with my visual check. I used to use a chopstick before accidentally breaking it off in the cylinder. Needless to say, I wouldn’t personally use anything harder than the cylinder material to avoid damage.

TDC on exhaust stroke, which you DON’T want, will happen as the exhaust closes.

[Moparnut72]

Like Dirk says, I would bet one cylinder was done on the exhaust stoke. Doesn't sound like damage has been done but I wouldn't run it anymore until you find the problem.
kk

[Tom H]

I agree with what Dirk wrote and your 1-5 steps looked good.

You did put the bike in like 3rd or 4th gear and rotate the wheel to get to compression TDC?

Start on the LH cylinder. Watch for rocker to push down the intake valve and then let it back up. Now take a zip tie or plastic drinking straw (I would use something at least 8" long in case you fumble it, then it wont fall all the way in) and gently slide it in the spark plug hole. "Bump" the wheel forward (top of wheel toward front of bike) and you should feel the piston come up. Sorta rest your hand or fingers on the head and let the straw move up. When you feel it stop going up, your there. If you feel it do back down, just bump the wheel back a bit and then forward again until it;s TDC.

Your bike S/B .004" In. and .006" Ex.. You want the feeler gauge to be a gentle pull when the correct gap is set.

EDIT: When you get the valve adjusted correctly, then tighten the lock nut, check the gap again. Sometimes it will get tighter or looser. Try setting the gap again, maybe go a little tighter or looser when you set the gap. Error on the slightly loose side when done if needed.

Good luck!
Tom

[Vagrant]

Any time you need to adjust the valves more than 2 thousands you're doing something wrong. FWIW, I us sixth gear and make sure you turn the wheel in the right direction as stated above. Also make sure two feeler gauges aren't stuck together.

[MikeP996]

Video sound indicates valve lash is much too loose. On rockers that are adjusted as these are, when you tighten the locknut the clearance will typically change (usually be less).  So it is common to have to loosen/re-adjust/check several times to ensure the clearance ends up as correct.

On some engines what works well is to use a gauge .001" larger than the clearance and leave the gauge in place when you tighten the lock nut.  Then, when pulling the gauge you will usually have a "loose" correct clearance.  You can also try the same thing with the correct clearance gauge and see what happens.  FWIW there is no "Spec" for how tight/loose the gauge slides in/out and if three people perform a valve adjustment, they will all likely have a different "feel" for the resistance of sliding gauge.  I have always tended to wanting them on the tight side of the clearance, others prefer the opposite! Go figure

As noted, you must set clearances at TDC of the compression stroke on each cylinder.

FWIW, excessive valve lash won't hurt anything in the short term but it can "mushroom" the valve tips/dent the rockers if excessive for a long period of time.  And, of course you are loosing some valve lift/adversely affecting power to some extent.

[acogoff]

    Finger over sparkplug hole while turning to make sure you are on the compression stroke.

[valerbear97]

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate all the super helpful advice and responses! Proud of to be a part of this community!

 I'll have some time later this week to work on the bike some more and will update with how that goes.

[Dukedesmo]

Agree on the 'correct' TDC.


On my old LM2, aside from the normal checks, there are letters visible; 'D' (Destra) Right and 'S' (Sinistra) Left through the inspection hole to the flywheel which show TDC, don't know if anything like this is available on newer models though?

[Dirk_S]

Agree on the 'correct' TDC.


On my old LM2, aside from the normal checks, there are letters visible; 'D' (Destra) Right and 'S' (Sinistra) Left through the inspection hole to the flywheel which show TDC, don't know if anything like this is available on newer models though?

No more inspection holes since 2016 at least, unfortunately.

[valerbear97]

Working on it right now and running into something strange (granted this is caused at least in part due to me doing it wrong the first time) but I am working on LH cylinder valve adjustment now and on the intake valve I am loosening the adjuster but the valve clearance isn't changing? I feel like I've maxed it out in terms of how far it will turn in the loosening direction and still couldn't fit my thinnest gauge. Just to double-check I went the other way to tighten again and then try loosening one more time but same deal. It feels like the rocker and everything is rock solid and not budging at all so I can't open up the intake valve clearance. Some of the videos mention there should be a "bit of play" in the rocker arms that I don't have currently, does anyone know which part should be loosened/adjusted to add that back in?

I followed a lot of the advice in this thread and think that I am on compression TBC of LH cylinder by:
1) both covers, spark plugs etc off like before, bike in 3rd gear
2) on LH cylinder I rocked the rear wheel forward and watched the rocker be all the way at the top, then go down, then come back up (like in this video and how I read the responses in this thread: https://youtu.be/VHyv6V78A7Y?si=7Wa9qKAKRMzc3QS3&t=223)

[Dirk_S]

You need something sticking down into the spark plug hole against the piston so that you can see when the piston reaches Top Dead Center. The plastic straw (my preference) will rise, then slow down before reaching its zenith. When the straw begins to drop again, you've gone past TDC

[MikeP996]

The engine is not at TDC on the compression stroke.  Rotate it one revolution and all should be well for the adjustment.

[valerbear97]

Hey all! Just wanted to close the loop on this thread and let folks know the job is finished! Thanks so much for all the help!

LH cylinder was definitely off so I fixed that, and then RH cylinder the exhaust valve was just a touch loose. Started the bike up again and it sounds noticeably better. After the first 30 seconds or so in neutral the idle was very steady and sounding more normal. I rode it gently around the block and didn't hear any of those weird clanging sounds or anything, and the bike was noticeably smoother especially in first. I think the engine does sound a bit more "clacky" now but my understanding is that that clackiness is normal after you adjust valves

[Dirk_S]

The engine is not at TDC on the compression stroke.  Rotate it one revolution and all should be well for the adjustment.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. Proper TDC for adjustment is at the end of the compression stroke.

[n3303j]

The engine is not at TDC on the compression stroke.  Rotate it one revolution and all should be well for the adjustment.

The engine is at TDC at the exact end of the compression stroke and in the correct position for setting rocker clearances.

Rotating the crank 360° from that point will put the engine at TDC and the end of the exhaust stroke with the exhaust valve closing and the intake valve opening. This is not the place to set rocker clearance.

[Tom H]

I think that saying the end of the compression stroke can be a bit misleading (could be the piston is at the bottom (BDC) "after" the compression??). Top of the compression stroke "may" make things more clear???

JMO,
Tom

[MikeP996]

"I think the engine does sound a bit more "clacky" now but my understanding is that that clackiness is normal after you adjust valves"

ASSUMING everything is mechanically/structurally OK, the only way the engine should sound "more clacky" after a valve adjustment is if the valve settings were too tight before the adjustment.  Normally, the operating clearance enlarges over time which is the reason for valve adjustments - to reduce the clearance back to the spec which also reduces the "clatter."  The greater the clearance, the greater the "clatter."

[Dirk_S]

Normally, the operating clearance enlarges over time which is the reason for valve adjustments

May I ask what your source is on this claim? On the 50,000+ miles on my Guzzi small blocks, I’ve only noticed that when my exhaust valves change, they’re getting tighter. Intake valves have usually stayed the same.

[MikeP996]

Yes, exhaust valves can tighten clearance with a new/rebuilt engine but after some miles/a couple of valve adjustments they usually stabilize and quit doing that.  I wouldn't expect it on engines with some mileage.  For example, on the V7 850 I recently purchased, it has 2000 miles since its most recent service (6200 miles at a shop by the previous owner).  The valve train was "ticking" louder than I thought it should so I checked the clearances and all valve clearances were slightly loose - the intakes more than the exhaust.  Admittedly, I don't know what the shop did as far as clearances - whether they set them to spec or not; I ASSUME they did. ;)

My primary source for anything I say re engines is based on personal experience working on engines since I was 15 and building street, competition, and race engines professionally from my 20's. 

Of course, the most important thing is to set the clearance correctly.  If the exhaust valves HAVE tightened up then the clattering sound WOULD increase when the valve clearance is adjusted. 

[Dirk_S]

Right on. OP mentioned their motor is only at 1000 miles. You have way more experience than I, but it seems to me the valves are still seating, thus it’s not unlikely that the exhaust valve probably closed in a little.

[MikeP996]

Good point - I missed the fact that the engine only had 1000 miles. 

[n3303j]

126,000 miles on T3, 98,000 miles on V11EV, 60,000 miles on Ural.
The cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers and valve tips all run under oil.
Let's leave out head gasket shrinkage during the first few thousand miles.
The intake valve face and seat are cooled by fuel mist evaporating as the valve opens.
So it is reasonably dimensionally stable.
The exhaust valve vents fire and caustic fumes.
The exhaust valve seat and face wear more quickly than any other part of that system.
As a result the valve recedes deeper into its seat and therefore the rocker clearance decreases between settings.
Left long enough the clearance will drop to zero and the valve will not seal and the constant leakage of hot exhaust gasses will burn the valve and seat.

All those bikes and service miles (and a few BMWs before) and I end up often just touching up the intakes but slightly opening up the exhaust clearance because it has lessened between service intervals.

[MikeP996]

Interesting!  Though quite different from my experience.  I wonder if the wear factor in those cases is related to valve rotation/lack of it.  Also, are they all air cooled examples?  Most of my experience  is with water-cooled engines.   In any case, it's great information!   And it appears to me that as a "new" V7 rider/mechanic, I should expect tightening of exh valve clearance as normal for the life of the bike and "increased clatter" AFTER a valve adjustment.  Thanks for posting it.

[Vagrant]

I've been adjusting Guzzi valves since 1972. About 500,000 miles worth on 14 different bikes and have as yet to see a tight valve. I guess I could believe a valve seating deeper in the seat but there are so many other wear spots it more than makes up for that. Now I would say that for the last 10 years usually the intakes are very close to right and the exhausts are about two thousands loose the first check and the second check. After that there is virtually no adjustment needed. Now the first check is always a crap shoot because you have no idea how they did it at the factory the first time.
The most important thing for a novice is if you have to adjust more than two to three thousands you most likely aren't on TDC.

[MikeP996]

Interesting again!  That more aligns with what I've seen over many years of mech work...

[Huzo]

The most important thing for a novice is if you have to adjust more than two to three thousands you most likely aren't on TDC.

Only to add one point.
If you have failed to achieve exact TDC on the compression stroke, the result will NEVER be a tight clearance upon checking (for that reason).
 If the cam lobe has a concentric base circle, then you could conceivably be a fair way off TDC and the clearance (whatever it is), will remain constant for quite a few degrees of rotation.
If you think about it, the valves are fully closed from BDC on the commencement of the compression stroke, to BDC at the end of the power stroke.
That is about 360 degrees of crank rotation or 90 degrees of camshaft rotation. Just for research purposes, next time you’re doing your valve lash adjustment, read the gap at TDC and see how far you have to rotate the crank either direction before the tappet begins to close…
However..
If the base circle is not concentric (with quietening ramps), then you MUST ensure you are spot on.

[Bulldog9]

I've been adjusting Guzzi valves since 1972. About 500,000 miles worth on 14 different bikes and have as yet to see a tight valve. I guess I could believe a valve seating deeper in the seat but there are so many other wear spots it more than makes up for that. Now I would say that for the last 10 years usually the intakes are very close to right and the exhausts are about two thousands loose the first check and the second check. After that there is virtually no adjustment needed. Now the first check is always a crap shoot because you have no idea how they did it at the factory the first time.
The most important thing for a novice is if you have to adjust more than two to three thousands you most likely aren't on TDC.

I've had similar experiences. My 1200 SPort has 70K+ Miles, Norge 48K, Convert 42K. I don't even check them anymore, but will every 10K or if they start making strange noises.

The Stornello has needed adjustments at every interval. Am at 14K and will be interesting to see what 18K brings. FWIW, The first two adjustments the clearances OPENED, but on the third, the Intakes were spot on and the exhaust had tightened.

Also want to echo that there are TWO TDC points, and the one you want to adjust at is the one that immediately follows the intake valves opening and closing.

As for 'what to use' I was NOT prepared for how fast the piston would pop up and when I dropped my trusty 20-30 year old wood dowel in the right cyl at the 620 mile initial adjust (or whatever it was), the cylk popped up and snapped off the lower 2: of the dowel in the combustion chamber...... Took off the head vacuumed it out and then retorqued the head bolts. No issues since.  FWIW, I use a 3/8" shorty extension dropped in the spark plug hole. Works perfect.