New To Me 2016 Eldorado 1400

[Huzo]

Pretty much all the 1400’s are identical. Just wheels, paint and accessories, or lack thereof, are different. The MGX-21 had the fairing, the 21” front wheel and different body panels and saddlebags. 

The engine architecture, afaik, from 2014 to 2020 were the same. They added an external air pump on the later ones. But that shouldn’t affect the basic engine build. That air pump was an effort to deal with stricter emissions.

Was the perceived deficiency in the MGX, centered in or around the cam chain tensioning mechanism ?
Was Luap’s ongoing concern with his, proven to be an isolated event and not indicative of a model related issue ?

[TN Mark]

I don’t know how many 1400’s had an issue like that, or similar. I was only occasionally looking in on WG at that time. From what I do remember, only 3 1400 engines had an issue. I don’t recall if it was a timing chain, a cam or a dropped valve.

The overall engine reliability seems to be quite good. I talked with a 2014 CA Touring owner today. He has well over 70k miles without a single issue of any kind.

Those kind of reports seldom get noticed. Where every ‘issue’ tends to get blown into being much worse than they really are.

I put 105k miles on my 2012 Victory. It’s been 100% reliable 100% of the time.

I’ve put 1400 miles on my 1400 and the service warning has come on three times. This week I had all the fault codes cleared. Time will tell if the service warning comes back. The engine, in this short amount of time has been fantastic. When I bought the bike it had a dead battery. The Power Commander was wired directly to the battery instead of a switched 12VDC source. I corrected that wiring error and also installed a new battery. All the ‘stored’ fault codes could have been caused by that dead (low) battery voltage.

The 1400 engine reliability isn’t a concern to me. The Italian electrics: are. What I’ve done, since I intend on keeping the 1400 very long term, is started stocking my parts shelf. With regular maintenance items as well as the unique 1400 electrical items that I consider suspect.
Things like a 1400 dash, a demand sensor, spark plug wire sets, gaskets & o-rings for a valve adjustment.

Plus  unique items like the headlight assembly, the taillight assembly and turn signals. A gas tank, rear fender, alternator (generator), starter motor, brake, clutch and side stand switches, throttle cables etc.
Next up will be the switch gear, lamda sensors and other similar items.

My Victory parts shelf is quite similar. Both bikes, for me, are long term bikes.

[Moparnut72]

My Audace was the dropped valve example. Fortunately it happened at 500 miles. The bike had been sold but taken back by the dealer due to a fraudulent credit app. It sat on the floor for quite awhile before I went to test ride it. The manager took it out before I got there to make sure all was good, obviously it wasn't. It locked up solid while he was riding it. MG sent a replacement engine. I never had any trouble with it other than some engine installation screw ups, minor stuff. It was a great bike I just couldn't handle it anymore due to my advancing age. That model is the basis of the MGX. It had a 19" front wheel though. I still wonder if I had put an 18" on it that I could have ridden longer. I test rode an Eldorado and I don't remember experiencing any ill issues with that one. I will say that everything I heard about reliability issues lead me to purchase a V7 as a backup which wasn't needed.
kk

[TN Mark]

Thank you for this information Moparnut72.
It’s always great to get firsthand information!

[TN Mark]

The 6 month old Yuasa AGM passed a load test with flying colors. I reinstalled it and connected it back onto the Battery Tender.

I’ve only ever run 87 octagon ethanol in my bikes and the lawn mower. When my tank of 87 octane non ethanol runs out in the Eldo, I’ll refill it with 93 octane non ethanol.

I’ll see if my aging butt dyno notices the difference. Fortunately, many gas stations in this part of the country still have non ethanol gas readily available.

[Bill W]

My 1400 is rated for 90 octane minimum so I never even tried to run 87. Non ethanol is rated 90 and I have no problems ( pinging ) running it in the winter when my bike sits a lot.

[blu guzz]

mine ran 87 regular fine.  I had a 2015 and 2016 and never had an engine issue. A buddy had 130k miles on his last time I asked him. I think they are very understressed.

[TN Mark]

In the back of my mind I knew this day was coming before I ever purchased the 2016 Eldorado a year ago. Sadly, the dreaded Urgent Service and Service warnings have returned. The Urgent Service turns off using the 34534 service code. But, so far, after many attempts the Service warning has not reset. Without the Urgent Service warning it ‘shouldn’t’ go into limp mode.

I bought a new Demand Sensor a few months ago in anticipation of this issue returning. Bad demand sensors on 2014 to 2017 1400’s have been very well documented here and elsewhere.

My plan, when I can actually do the work, it is to replace the demand sensor myself and have my local Cleveland, TN dealer, HBR, then remove all old fault codes and ensure the new demand sensor and its functions are working correctly.

[Bill W]

Mark how does the bike run with the alert on?  Your GTM re flash tool can also read and erase codes.

[TN Mark]

Bill,
 
     It runs perfectly. I’ll confirm the Service light is still on today and verify it runs perfectly by taking it for a ride. It did a few months ago when this same scenario happened. The bike has essentially been in the garage connected to a Battery Tender for the last two months since I had my second knee surgery.
This weekend I’m going to try out the GTM re-flash tool. I was so thankful when you told me about the capabilities of it. Now, it’s time to learn how to actually use this valuable tool.
It’s been sitting in a box on my parts shelf for too long.

[blu guzz]

Sorry to hear of your problem.  I had a 2015 California and 2016 Eldo and neither experienced that problem. The 2015 was in limp mode, but it was a little laughable as the cut off was lowered to 4,000 rpms which still equated to 80 mph on the expressway. I might never have known except for the light.
Good luck moving forward.

[TN Mark]

My local dealer in Cleveland, TN, HBR, only wants 2 hours ($240) labor to change the demand sensor, record and remove any and all fault codes and ensure the new sensor is functioning as it should. I know I wouldn't be able to do it in 2 hours as I'd be cleaning and wiping down everything I removed and that I could get to. This would take me several hours. My biggest issue is the most I can stand is about 25 minutes at this point two months after knee replacement.

HBR has been very good to me with parts for my parts shelf etc. I'll likely remove the gas tank to replace the USB cable I have routed to the left side of the handlebars and take a look at what else is involved. One of my favorite YouTube channels is Moto Schrauber from Germany. He has videos explaining the part, the operation of it and then replacing the two end pieces, the potentiometers. I think he left the original center section in place to avoid having to loosen and then re-adjust the throttle cables. 

If HBR does it or I do it will likely depend on my upcoming work travel schedule.

[TN Mark]

Must be a Twofer Thursday. I turned the Eldorado key on a few times today and Service was ever present.
Then I hit the starter button and two things happened immediately. The bike started right up and the Service message went out.

On my 80 mile no warning lights or messages ride the bike ran perfectly.

Status: the original demand sensor is likely on its way out and won’t rectify itself. I suspect going forward the Urgent Service and Service warnings will come up more frequently until the demand sensor gets replaced.

[TN Mark]

When cranking the Eldorado over, the year old, always on a Battery Tender Yuasa YTX AGM battery has had the voltage drop to 10.9, 10.7 and even 10.5. It starts at 12.2 and goes up to 14.2 after the bike is running. IMHO, the Yuasa simply isn't up to the task of the electronic needs of the bike. Therefore, I'm throwing a huge power difference at it. Yesterday I ordered, from my local Moto Guzzi dealer, HBR Powersports, an Antigravity ATX-20-HD. This battery has a whopping 780CCA instead of 310CCA and is rated at 30Ah instead of 18Ah. It's a lithium LifePo type. I actually ordered two of these batteries as my 2013 Victory uses the exact same size YTX battery. Just with the opposite + - terminals. The Antigravity has a four post design so both bikes can now use the same battery. I also have a NOCO Genius 5 charger which I'll use with the lithium batteries as needed. The Battery Tenders are a no go for lithium batteries.

The width and the depth of the Antigravity is the same. But the height of it is 1" shorter. The Antigravity comes with spacers to make up the height difference.

I know there are multiple lithium battery options. Early adapters to lithium had some issues. IMHO, the LifePo versions along with the new voltage sensing technology have greatly improved the batteries. I didn't want a cheap Chinese copy, I wanted American design and construction.

[DoubleGuzzi]

I also have a NOCO Genius 5 charger which I'll use with the lithium batteries as needed. The Battery Tenders are a mo go for lithium batteries.

I don't understand the reticence when the charger that you're using is specifically designed for LiFePO - no reason to shy away from tender mode, as far as I'm concerned.

[TN Mark]

Everything I've read says the older 1.25A Battery Tenders I have were designed for lead acid/AGM battery technology.
Not to be used with Lithium batteries. The NOCO Genius 5 uses separate battery charging options for AGM and Lithium. It has a Mode button to match the technology. My Battery Tenders do not have this ability.

IMHO, the NOCO also uses better technology for a standard lead acid/AGM battery as well.

[DoubleGuzzi]

I wasn't suggesting that standard battery tenders be used, just thought your relatively expensive/new Noco 5 would have a "maintainer" facility. I haven't deep-dived into the spec. 

[Epilogue]
Checking the online User Guide and Datasheet, there is no mention of not using the charger as a maintainer for lithium/LiFePO4 batteries. Only to ensure there is a BMS on the battery - though I reckon all LiFePO4 will/should have one, as part of the design.

I have two (Chinese) LiFePO4 'smart' chargers that are both supposed maintain these batteries. The really cheapo one just discontinues charging once full, however.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Just had a look at the battery that you bought. Cracking specification but Jeez, that price!!  M'self, I'd go with a Motobatt Hybrid if I got a bonus from somewhere and felt flush.

[TN Mark]

My local Moto Guzzi dealer gave me a nice discount on the ATX-20-HD batteries. I could have saved more had I chosen the ATX-20-RS. Neither bike has a parasitic charge once off and I wanted good sustained battery power. Plus, I never leave the key on etc that it would drain the battery.

I carry a Scoshe JumpStart 700 which can be used for either AGM or lithium batteries. One of my riding buddies Harley sometimes needs a jump. The Scoshe unit works great.

Yes, the NOCO Genius 5 has a maintenance mode once the batteries are at full charge. And yes on the Antigravity battery having a good BMS design.

I still suspect I have a dodgy Demand Sensor. A new battery won’t fix that scenario. But I am disappointed in the voltage drop on the Yuasa YTX AGM after only a year. The Yuasa YTX AGM in my 2013 Victory Hard-Ball is 3-4 years old. Sometimes it hesitates a bit to turn over on startup.

I’ll use my GTM tuning tool to record and then reset any fault code(s) the Eldorado has before I install the new battery.

[michaell32]

I've noticed lithium batteries handle high amperage draw much better than lead acid even when they are rated similar. My DR650 calls for a ytx9 however the ytx14 was the same size so I bought that instead. For fun I threw it in the Guzzi and it turned over noticeably faster than the Odyssey PC680 that was in it but to be fair it was 6 years old. I forgot what size the GL1000 had but it was lead acid and the lithium was stronger than that as well.

[TN Mark]

My goal with the powerful ATX-20-HD is to prevent momentary voltage drop which plays havoc on the electronics and the sensors on the Eldorado. I’ve never, not even once, had a Yuasa AGM battery issue. But then I’ve never had a bike with the electronics the Eldorado has either.

Is it more battery than the bike generally needs? Probably. With the discount it was close to the price of the ATX-20-RS. So, yea, I went bigger.

Similar in, with all else being equal, there’s no replacement for displacement regarding engines.
I’ll soon find out if that power difference holds true in Antigravity lithium batteries as well. The weight savings is nice. But I don’t suspect I’d notice if I didn’t know about it going in.

[DoubleGuzzi]

The weight savings is nice. But I don’t suspect I’d notice if I didn’t know about it going in.

A drop in the ocean, for that big bus. 

[TN Mark]

I picked up the two Antigravity batteries after work today. Amazing how light they are. It has the weight of a 'prop' battery more than an actual battery. I'll install it tomorrow. Tonight I just connected it to my NOCO Genius 5 which took all of a few minutes to get it up to full voltage.

The Eldorado still has the Yuasa YTX20 in it and it's connected to a Battery Tender. Sure enough, when I turned the key on just to see if it'll throw a code, it threw URGENT SERVICE right off.

I'll connect the GTM Tuning Tool to the bike tomorrow to see what, if any, fault codes are showing. I'll reset them before removing the Yuasa.  After removing the Yuasa battery I'll wait 30 minutes before I install the new Antigravity battery. I was told, by Google AI, the ECU capacitors need about 10 to 15 minutes to fully discharge. Maybe, just maybe, when I connect the new Antigravity battery the fault code issue will subside. I'm not counting on it as I still suspect I have a dodgy Demand Sensor. 

I was also told, by Google AI,  to turn the key on and off 3 times waiting 10 seconds before each position without starting the bike after installing the new battery. Will that do anything? Not sure, maybe scare the ECU with full voltage without a voltage drop. So, why not give it a try.

As per Google AI:

What to Do Tomorrow During the Install:Disconnect the Old Battery:
Remove the negative (-) terminal first, then the positive (+) terminal of the Yuasa.
Let the ECU Rest: Once the old battery is out, leave the bike completely disconnected for about 10 to 15 minutes. This allows the capacitors inside the Moto Guzzi ECU to fully drain, which can help clear out transient, non-permanent fault codes.

Install the ATX-20-HD: Drop the Antigravity battery in. Connect the positive (+) side first, then the negative (-) side. Make sure the terminal bolts are tightly torqued.

Perform the Ignition Cycle: Turn the key ON for 10 seconds (don't crank it yet), then OFF for 10 seconds. Repeat this 3 times to let the ECU map the steady, high voltage of the new lithium battery. With 15 amp-hours and up to 900 cranking amps, the ATX-20-HD should easily satisfy the power-hungry Eldorado electronics and hopefully clear that dash message right up.

[DoubleGuzzi]

 
Remind me; do you have voltmeters fitted to these bikes, so that you can monitor charge voltage? The last run that I had on the V7, it peaked momentarily at an indicated 14.9V - borderline, assuming a +/-0.1V meter error. I'm not too concerned though, as it was just a fleeting minute.

[TN Mark]

The voltage can be displayed on the Eldorado dash. When running it remains steady between 14.1 and 14.2. I've changed the headlight, tail light and driving lights to LED. The performance improvement with LED has been wonderful. Plus it's easier on the charging system.

[TN Mark]

Before I installed the new Antigravity ATX-20-HD battery in the Eldorado I read and reset the fault codes using the GTM Tuning Tool.
By the way, that handheld GTM Tuning Tool is great to have. Anyway, the fault codes it had and I cleared were:
P0135, P0141 which are Throttle Position errors. P0154, P0156 which are also Demand Sensor errors. the last fault code was P0611 which from what I gather means data file is full and it can be ignored.

So, from reading previous URGENT SERVICE threads here and elsewhere, I have confirmed I have a dodgy Demand Sensor.
Thankfully I have a new one on my Guzzi Parts Shelf. I'll get it changed in the next week or two. My personal and work schedule is quite full at the moment.

After the codes were cleared I was able to turn the key once without an error code returning. When I got back to the bike to change the Yuasa and install the Antigravity, the URGENT SERVICE error message had returned. The voltage only drops to 11.7 while cranking with the new battery so that's a good thing.

I'll try to get out on the Guzzi to see if it goes into Limp Mode. Something it's never done before. Previously, entering the Wrench Reset code, 34534 has reset the Service message.

After the Antigravity was installed, I did turn the key on and off four times waiting 15 seconds in between each cycle.

Next up, I'll exchange the 3 to 4 year old Yuasa in the Victory with the second ATX-20-HD.

[bad Chad]

I have a buddy with a MGX, he rides it Hard, and tours on it with his wife, while pulling a trailer.  It's been perfect so far, he bought it new a few years back, and is taking it in for I think he called it the 18,000 mile service, he may have already.  He was talking about having a performance cam put in, seemed like overkill to me, but he loves to go fast and embarrass HD riders, so makes sense for him.

[TN Mark]

Putting an aftermarket cam in a 1400 is no walk in the park. I’m not certain who even has them available. But it’s likely worth looking into.

With your friend considering a cam, I’m ’guessing’ he already has intake, exhaust and fuel modifications done. Interesting idea if he’s truly considering a cam. I ‘think’ there is, or was, a big bore kit available as well to around 1440cc. I know GTM made a few ‘monster 1400’s’ at one time.

[TN Mark]

Ok, I am NOT saying my original demand sensor is fine.
But, it’s been fine after replacing the year old Yuasa AGM YTX20 battery with the new Antigravity ATX-20-HD and then resetting the fault codes. Eight+ starts in and eight+ starts without a URGENT SERVICE or a SERVICE warning. Best record I’ve had all month.

Cranking voltage with the Yuasa had gone as low as 10.5. With the Anitgravity lithium battery it only goes down to 11.9 to 12.1.

Time will tell a more complete story and I have a new demand sensor, B044414, standing by if/when needed.

Cruising voltage fluctuates between 14.1 and 14.2.

It’s so easy to love this motorcycle!

[michaell32]

It's experiences like yours and a couple others that make me scared to get rid of my california and pick up a V85 or newer california.  There is no reason for the electronics to be this sensitive.