Seriously stupid designs

[faffi]

I just read an old road test of the Norge, and discovered that in order to check the oil level, you must first undo 7 screws in order to remove the LHS lower fairing to reach the dipstick. What

Do you have similar stories to share?

[TN Mark]

Why Piaggio doesn’t move the Moto Guzzi oil pan drain to the left side of the bike and the oil fill to the right side is beyond me. That way the oil could be changed on the side stand. Assuming the filter is recessed in the oil pan.

[Wayne Orwig]

There was an after-market extension that got around it.

I had a Honda that required the radiator be drained to check the valves.

[PeteS]

Changing the air filter on an 1800 Goldwing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0W31rMGm7U

Pete

[TN Mark]

Changing the air filter on the 1400 is much more difficult than it should be. It should have been designed as a top insertion and extraction, not out the back.

That being said, the GW 1800 air filter is crazy.

[rocker59]

- Accessing the battery on a Ducati ST2 required removing half the fairing.  It was mounted on the side of the engine...

- Every bike with the airbox under the gas tank.  Stupid idea that seems to have become universal over the past 30 years.  Remove the fuel tank to check/replace an air filter...

-Every Italian bike with the stupid, fragile, and hard to disconnect plastic fuel line "quick" disconnects.

-Every bike with an in-tank fuel pump.  Seems to have become universal over the past 25-years, but is a pain to deal with when something goes wrong.  Guzzi's external fuel pumps were great!

I'm sure if I think on it, there are a lot more...

[faffi]

The air filter on the Honda Deauville 650 require fairing removal in order to remove the tank in order to reach the filter.

Changing spark plugs or coils or adjusting the valves or reaching the carbs on a Suzuki GSX600F/750F (aka Katana in some markets) demand you to remove the seat, side panels, the complete fairing, mirrors and various brackets. 77 screws in total.

[MCR]

I just read an old road test of the Norge, and discovered that in order to check the oil level, you must first undo 7 screws in order to remove the LHS lower fairing to reach the dipstick. What

Do you have similar stories to share?

That's not true. I have a Norge, and to check the oil level using the dipstick, you simply open a small door secured by a special hand-unscrewed screw, allowing for a tool-free check. If anything, to refill the oil, it's a bit awkward to reach the inlet to fill with the oil bottle.

[faffi]

That's not true. I have a Norge, and to check the oil level using the dipstick, you simply open a small door secured by a special hand-unscrewed screw, allowing for a tool-free check. If anything, to refill the oil, it's a bit awkward to reach the inlet to fill with the oil bottle.

What year is your bike? The test I read was from 2006, perhaps Guzzi changed the design later? Or maybe the tester was unaware that there was a simpler way to check the oil level.

[bad Chad]

They did change it.

[mojohand]

I just read an old road test of the Norge, and discovered that in order to check the oil level, you must first undo 7 screws in order to remove the LHS lower fairing to reach the dipstick. What

Do you have similar stories to share?

That is very true. I had a 2007 4v Norge--and the only way to get to the dipstick was to remove the lower fairing, starting on the starboard side and removing three pieces of fairing to reach the dipstick. People created grabber tools to be able to grab the end of the dipstick, unscrew it, and pull it out. Later versions had a small door in the port fairing.

[SemperVee]

 Unable to change belt on Harley without unbolting swingarm!!  Victory fixed that with proper design. easily changed on side of the road if needed.

  Harley still after untold years still unscrews oil filter and hot oil spills over wiring of sensitive charging electronics....   I was happy to have mine underneath or at the rear of early evo's motor...  That worked too well.

NORGE has too many fiddly layers to get thru to access parts that require maintenance!!!   Why I am more and more in like with my 03 EV everyday!

[azccj]

The first Norge was built without an easy way to check the oil level. Then MG drilled a large hole in the left side fairing that used the same big rubber plug used to seal the hole in the front belt cover. This allowed easy access to the dipstick. But when it came time to add oil it was still a pain. Back when I had my 2007 Norge I used a 2 gallon pump up weed sprayer to add oil. Worked great and it allowed me to fill the bike with fresh oil during the oil change, with a precise amount of oil. On that bike, any amount of oil above halfway on the dipstick would find its way into the air box.

[drdwb]

NORGE has too many fiddly layers to get thru to access parts that require maintenance!!!   Why I am more and more in like with my 03 EV everyday!

I totally agree with SemperVee, maintaining the 03 EV is like working on an old Ford tractor, simple and most things with the exception of the fuel tank gas line connection are easily accomplished. The 07 Norge with dip stick extension isn’t that bad but removing the Tupperware is a pain, removing and replacing the air box has to be one of my least favorite tasks.

But on a day ride through hills and twisties on the Norge continues to bring huge smiles.

[faffi]

But on a day ride through hills and twisties on the Norge continues to bring huge smiles.

Having never ridden a Norge, I can only relate to the test reports I have read. And a common tune of complaints is an apparent severe lack of cornering clearance, restricted by the dragging center stand on both sides, left side being the worst offender by far.

[nmroadrunner]

Baloney.

[Kaladin]

Having never ridden a Norge, I can only relate to the test reports I have read. And a common tune of complaints is an apparent severe lack of cornering clearance, restricted by the dragging center stand on both sides, left side being the worst offender by far.

My red Norge has lowered footpegs which doesn't allow the center stand to come up as far.  I have bumped it a few times.   The silver Norge is stock in that department, and the only time I bumped it I was experimenting with how fast I could take a hairpin turn.  Not likely to try that again

[Huzo]

Having never ridden a Norge, I can only relate to the test reports I have read. And a common tune of complaints is an apparent severe lack of cornering clearance, restricted by the dragging center stand on both sides, left side being the worst offender by far.

Utter garbage…

[rocker59]

Having never ridden a Norge, I can only relate to the test reports I have read. And a common tune of complaints is an apparent severe lack of cornering clearance, restricted by the dragging center stand on both sides, left side being the worst offender by far.

Maybe on a racetrack, but when I tested a Norge in Colorado (at a very spirited pace), nothing touched down.

[SemperVee]

I totally agree with SemperVee, maintaining the 03 EV is like working on an old Ford tractor, simple and most things with the exception of the fuel tank gas line connection are easily accomplished. The 07 Norge with dip stick extension isn’t that bad but removing the Tupperware is a pain, removing and replacing the air box has to be one of my least favorite tasks.

But on a day ride through hills and twisties on the Norge continues to bring huge smiles.

YES!  Why I still put up with VroomHilda's wicked ways as she seduces me with such a comfortable perch and so much fun on the twisties - Why I put up with her excesses of expended energy and grumbling to reach her most secret and guarded interior places.. 

[Motormike]

Do you have similar stories to share?

Oh, I don't know.  I'm still scarred from bleeding the I-abs servo system on my old BMW K1200gt.  SIX! (count em...6!) bleed valve nipples on the servo itself, plus one more in a line junction, plus the usual one on each brake caliper for a total of 10!

If that doesn't confirm the old German Engineering adage of "Why use just one part when 37 will do!" I don't know what does.   

[brider]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Tonti's-revenge airbox, found on many (all?) Tonti models. My Cal 2 airbox was absolutely impossible to re-install, probably one of the main reasons riders switched to pods. I got tired of the noise of the pods and wanted to switch back to the quiet stock airbox, but quit after an hour of rage/hysterical laughing at such a ridiculous design.

[SIR REAL ED]

The air filter on the Honda Deauville 650 require fairing removal in order to remove the tank in order to reach the filter.

Changing spark plugs or coils or adjusting the valves or reaching the carbs on a Suzuki GSX600F/750F (aka Katana in some markets) demand you to remove the seat, side panels, the complete fairing, mirrors and various brackets. 77 screws in total.

Sounds like a great application for some magnets and/or velcro.

"77 screws" reminded me of a Kevin Cameron column talking about splitting engine cases as an indicator of engineering philosophy.  He said the Japanese bikes used all 6 mm bolts, while the Italians used a combination of 5mm, 5.5mm, and 6mm bolts.

I wonder how many of the 77 screws could be replaced by magnets and/or velcro?

[SIR REAL ED]

Oh, I don't know.  I'm still scarred from bleeding the I-abs servo system on my old BMW K1200gt.  SIX! (count em...6!) bleed valve nipples on the servo itself, plus one more in a line junction, plus the usual one on each brake caliper for a total of 10!

If that doesn't confirm the old German Engineering adage of "Why use just one part when 37 will do!" I don't know what does.   

SIX Nipples!!!

IIRC, milking machines can only access 5 nipples simultaneously...

[kingoffleece]

Hamlin sold a lot of the Norge motorcycles.  I assisted him many times on suspension work on those bikes, including my own.  More often then not there were wear marks on the left side where the stand is.  The early bikes came with what many considered a too soft spring.  We changed quite a few and installed more aftermarket shocks on a good number of Norge bikes.

I ground my stock 2014 sidestand down quite a bit prior to a shock change.

I cannot recall when the spring rate was revised from the factory but it was sometime after 2014.  It was an improvement.

[faffi]

Hamlin sold a lot of the Norge motorcycles.  I assisted him many times on suspension work on those bikes, including my own.  More often then not there were wear marks on the left side where the stand is.  The early bikes came with what many considered a too soft spring.  We changed quite a few and installed more aftermarket shocks on a good number of Norge bikes.

I ground my stock 2014 sidestand down quite a bit prior to a shock change.

I cannot recall when the spring rate was revised from the factory but it was sometime after 2014.  It was an improvement.

That relates perfectly with the articles I read. If someone would like to read than and reads German, or want to google-translate, I can post the links.

[Dukedesmo]

Obviously rectified on later models but, having to remove the sump to change the oil filter on my LM2 was really odd.


I have now fitted a sump with external filter but, even back in the '70s, who dreamt that one up?

[faffi]

While time-consuming, a real PITA and with a real chance of someone stripping threads in the crankcase by over-tightening the oil pan bolts, there really is a sensible reason for this; you can both inspect the bottom of the oil pan for things not supposed to be there AND you can - and should - clean it out before refitting.

Now, being lazy, I very much prefer a drain bolt over oil pan removal and accept the lack of inspection and cleaning. Another danger with such an elaborate system is that quite a few will be tempted to prolong oil filter changes.

[huub]

i've got a morini dart , looks like a tiny ducati paso ,


 it is basically a 125 cagiva 2 stroke chassis where they managed to shoehorn a 350 morini engine in.
as the chassis was meant for a two stroke it does not have easy access to the engine.
to check the oil level you have to completely remove the fairing.
typical of italians ,
build beautiful things, but practicality not at the top of the priority list.

[DaGootz]

Oh, I don't know.  I'm still scarred from bleeding the I-abs servo system on my old BMW K1200gt.  SIX! (count em...6!) bleed valve nipples on the servo itself, plus one more in a line junction, plus the usual one on each brake caliper for a total of 10!

If that doesn't confirm the old German Engineering adage of "Why use just one part when 37 will do!" I don't know what does.   

You must have the old ABSII brake system, like my 2002 K1200RS, worse ABS system ever designed....it's a freaking horror show for sure....LOL!