Talk me out of it

[PJPR01]

Always a good reason not to wear shoes with shoelaces when riding a motorcycle...I've seen this happen a couple of times to folks...almost like being unable to unclip out on bike pedals...and down you go in a slow motion oh shit moment while others watch the calamity unfold!

 

[Offcamber1]

Very entertaining thread!

I was a BMW rider R90/6 and R90/S before getting into Guzzis in the mid-1980s.  There is no comparison concerning character of the two makes as I have owned a dozen Guzzis since.  In the winter of 2005 I stumbled into a nice K100RS in a big-4 dearlership and made an obscene offer on it and ended up owning a characterless bike for a couple of years.  My observation is that the K bike was terrific at higher cruising speeds and a joy to hustle around 70MPH sweepers, but a cumbersome PIA on the back roads I usually enjoyed.  Sold it and bought my second Lario.  I would agree on the observation that the best K option is the K75S if you have to have a BMW to fulfill some sordid bucket list.

I would also add that as I am pushing age 70, that I now have a rule about both dogs and motorcycles:  Don't own one you can not pick up all by yourself.  So the K-bikes are out for me.

Would dearly love to own another R90/S, but those have gone nuts $$ with "investment collectors" and I'm not willing to pay a premium.

Currently considering a used Aprilia 750 Shiver or new Tuono 457, if I don't find something intriguing first.

Good Hunting!

[Tusayan]

The more of the old test reports I read, the more it seems like the 75 is the best choice.

The K75S is the best early K-bike: well made, long lasting, comfortable and easy to service.  The hard luggage of the early K-bikes also works well. These were BMWs attempt to preserve the traditional virtues of their flat twins but in a modern package. In doing this it was pretty successful and all the early 2v/cylinder K-Bikes remind me of a a 1980s BMW car, in a good way.  Later on BMW simply gave up on simplicity and serviceability in all their products.

On the downside, the K75S is underpowered and while you can rev it hard and make it go well enough, it’s no faster than say a CX100 or 1000SP Guzzi… I traded back and forth between a K75S and CX on a long ride once.  In terms of handling the shaft drive and soft suspension on the K75 become a liability if you start to push it hard, on another ride long ago (in maybe 1990) I switched per back and forth between a K75S and a 1983 Honda V45 Interceptor and the Honda was much better when pushed on windy roads.  Keeping up on the K75 in that company involved pushing the bike past the limits of a wise rider.  The four cylinder K100RS was worse yet, another step behind the K75 in handling but it went better on open roads - the early four cylinder bike was mostly an open road tourer by nature although the paralever K1100RS was better on twisty roads.  Skip the in-between K100RS four valve, the Motronic EFI on that one is clunky and it’s a bit of a mess.

One more note: the best BMW handling street bike of the early K-bike era was not a K-bike, it was the paralever R100GS that came out in 1988, or maybe the similar R100R but these are not so silky smooth or refined as a K75.

[faffi]

Very entertaining thread!

I was a BMW rider R90/6 and R90/S before getting into Guzzis in the mid-1980s.  There is no comparison concerning character of the two makes as I have owned a dozen Guzzis since.  In the winter of 2005 I stumbled into a nice K100RS in a big-4 dearlership and made an obscene offer on it and ended up owning a characterless bike for a couple of years.  My observation is that the K bike was terrific at higher cruising speeds and a joy to hustle around 70MPH sweepers, but a cumbersome PIA on the back roads I usually enjoyed.  Sold it and bought my second Lario.  I would agree on the observation that the best K option is the K75S if you have to have a BMW to fulfill some sordid bucket list.

I would also add that as I am pushing age 70, that I now have a rule about both dogs and motorcycles:  Don't own one you can not pick up all by yourself.  So the K-bikes are out for me.

Would dearly love to own another R90/S, but those have gone nuts $$ with "investment collectors" and I'm not willing to pay a premium.

Currently considering a used Aprilia 750 Shiver or new Tuono 457, if I don't find something intriguing first.

Good Hunting!

Thanks!

I do not mind bland as long as it is good bland, meaning something just works. Your description reminds me of a story in Cycle magazine from November 1982, IIRC, where they went on a multi-day ride on four European machines; BMW R65LS, Ducati Pantah 600, Laverda 1200 Mirage and Moto Guzzi SP1000. The author wrote something like this: "After a spirited ride, three og the men were giggling and discussing their speeding antics and the drama. The Guzzi rider observed this in silence, wondering if they had really ridden that fast, or if the other three had just gone mad."

Personally, I must say that I never felt comfortable riding any of the old Guzzi, be that Loop or Tonti, small- or big block. My brother, OTOH, have always loved them, and still own several. The only bike he has disliked is a 1000 Quota he currently owns. He also HATED his Honda 650 Deauville, whereas I really liked mine - I only sold it because the engine vibrations numbed my hands. I mention this to illustrate that people have different preferences and requirements. Luckily, there are quite a number of bikes to choose from

[faffi]

The K75S is the best early K-bike: well made, long lasting, comfortable and easy to service.  The hard luggage of the early K-bikes also works well. These were BMWs attempt to preserve the traditional virtues of their flat twins but in a modern package. In doing this it was pretty successful and all the early 2v/cylinder K-Bikes remind me of a a 1980s BMW car, in a good way.  Later on BMW simply gave up on simplicity and serviceability in all their products.

On the downside, the K75S is underpowered and while you can rev it hard and make it go well enough, it’s no faster than say a CX100 or 1000SP Guzzi… I traded back and forth between a K75S and CX on a long ride once.  In terms of handling the shaft drive and soft suspension on the K75 become a liability if you start to push it hard, on another ride long ago (in maybe 1990) I switched per back and forth between a K75S and a 1983 Honda V45 Interceptor and the Honda was much better when pushed on windy roads.  Keeping up on the K75 in that company involved pushing the bike past the limits of a wise rider.  The four cylinder K100RS was worse yet, another step behind the K75 in handling but it went better on open roads - the early four cylinder bike was mostly an open road tourer by nature although the paralever K1100RS was better on twisty roads.  Skip the in-between K100RS four valve, the Motronic EFI on that one is clunky and it’s a bit of a mess.

One more note: the best BMW handling street bike of the early K-bike era was not a K-bike, it was the paralever R100GS that came out in 1988, or maybe the similar R100R but these are not so silky smooth or refined as a K75.

I think this post is the one that comes closest to the target of talking me out of a K-bike

While I enjoy functionality, I am not against character. For instance, I find my V9 to be both functional (to a point) and also having character. What it does not have, is comfort or practicality. The old BMW airheads do not gel with me, primarily due to the rise and fall of the final drive and the overly soft suspension, but the R100GS supposedly do not suffer from this. As to the R100R, it was a bike I lusted after when they came out, but it too had some weird things going in in typical BMW fashion. The strangest was that the front and rear rims both were 2.5 in wide (narrow?), the front fitted with a 110/80 and the rear a 140/80 tire. The bike worked much better with a 130/90 rear tire, but that was just tall enough to allow the tire to rub on the fender with a fully compressed shock absorber, meaning it was illegal to use in Germany. IIRC, BMW came up with a fix in for of a plastic spacer that limited shock travel and had the 130/90 tire approved.

[faffi]

FYI: I have played these games (for myself) since I began riding in 1980. Often, nothing comes out of it, but I still take pleasure from the personal mind games. In other words, I take no offense if people do not want to chime in, but I get very happy when they (you) do. So thank you for contributing and giving me many smiles and lotsa food for thought so far

Anyway, I have tried to put up a limited list over requirements for the semi-sporty touring bike I am looking for. By limited I mean leaving some slack for outsider-bikes to be considered.

1. Weather protection
2. Fuel injection
3. Reliability and ease of maintenance
4. Shaft drive
5. Decent cornering ability on backroads

There are of course many more things, like wind buffeting, engine vibrations, ease of maintenance, fuel consumption and on and on. But that would just be too limiting to address them all. And of the 5 points, I reckon one can be eliminated if the bike in question is particularly good at other things.

So here is my current shortlist in alphabetical order:

BMW K75RT
BMW K100RS
BMW R850RT
BMW R1100RT
Honda NT700V Deauville
Moto Guzzi Norge

What should be added?

[bronzestar1]

On your list of specifications, to me the one that narrows down the field the most is shaft drive.  If I had to choose one from your list of potential bikes, I'd definitely go for the K100RS.  BMWs in general tend to be boring bikes to ride, but the "R" ones even more so. 

[SIR REAL ED]

FYI: I have played these games (for myself) since I began riding in 1980. Often, nothing comes out of it, but I still take pleasure from the personal mind games. In other words, I take no offense if people do not want to chime in, but I get very happy when they (you) do. So thank you for contributing and giving me many smiles and lotsa food for thought so far

Anyway, I have tried to put up a limited list over requirements for the semi-sporty touring bike I am looking for. By limited I mean leaving some slack for outsider-bikes to be considered.

1. Weather protection
2. Fuel injection
3. Reliability and ease of maintenance
4. Shaft drive
5. Decent cornering ability on backroads

There are of course many more things, like wind buffeting, engine vibrations, ease of maintenance, fuel consumption and on and on. But that would just be too limiting to address them all. And of the 5 points, I reckon one can be eliminated if the bike in question is particularly good at other things.

So here is my current shortlist in alphabetical order:

BMW K75RT
BMW K100RS
BMW R850RT
BMW R1100RT
Honda NT700V Deauville
Moto Guzzi Norge

What should be added?

On the behalf of experts both inside my head and worldwide, you be welcome.   

I don't think the Deauville was marketed in the US, but the Honda Pacific Coast was similar.

Fairings + Shaft drive tend to mean "heavy."

I think Honda was one of the few who attempted to produce a smaller, lighter touring bike with the Silver Wing, which was based on the CX500/650.

[Motormike]

Choosing the "right" bike is always a challenge.  What are the tradeoffs?  Weight? Cost? Complexity? Service? Age (of you and the bike!) and so on.  Looking at your list, I'd say the older K bikes if you can find a nice clean example.  But they can have their own set of challenges.  Number one being oil getting past the seal and onto the dry clutch.  If and when it happens, it is a big repair job to tackle.  I noticed the Moto Guzzi V85 was not on your list?  It would seem to tick all your boxes.  Maybe I overlooked why you excluded it.  Early versions would now seem to be cheap enough.  Much easier to work on than an old K bike. Of course, nothing is written in stone.  If you pick something that turns out not to have been what you expected, you can sell it and try again.  I know people that go through motorcycles like changing socks!

[blackcat]

I've toyed with buying BMW's over the years and could never take the plunge. The last time was taking a brand new RT out for a test ride and the transmission clunk was just awful and during the ride shifting it into neutral was difficult at best so I just turned around and brought it back to the dealer.  Then there are all the people I know who either have had final drive problems or have to buy extended warranties on their BMW's with plans to sell the bikes when those warranties run out.   

I'd buy the Honda or Norge depending on mileage and maintenance history but one bike is a sewing machine, which some people like and then there is the Norge and I'll take a twin that I can work on without too much difficulty.

"So here is my current shortlist in alphabetical order:

BMW K75RT
BMW K100RS
BMW R850RT
BMW R1100RT
Honda NT700V Deauville
Moto Guzzi Norge"

[PJPR01]

While it doesn't have shaft drive, a mid to late 80's Honda VF Interceptor, either 750 or 1000 are impressive bikes.  I used to ride one while at the university, a friend had one.  Fast, decent wind coverage, smooth as silk.  I've often thought it would be nice to find one again.  The chain drive I don't think suffered from many issues, so 4 out 5 on your list if you're willing to consider chain vs. shaft.

[turboguzzi]

Well, since we didnt managed to talk you OUT of it, we might as well help you

quite a few from your list for a song.... just press on the BMW button

=61225]https://www.catawiki.com/en/c/713-classic-motorcycles-scooters?filters=909[]=61225

[faffi]

Well, since we didnt managed to talk you OUT of it, we might as well help you

quite a few from your list for a song.... just press on the BMW button

=61225]https://www.catawiki.com/en/c/713-classic-motorcycles-scooters?filters=909[]=61225

Holy cow - there are bid prices for bikes there that cost less than a set of sport bike tires 

[faffi]

While it doesn't have shaft drive, a mid to late 80's Honda VF Interceptor, either 750 or 1000 are impressive bikes.  I used to ride one while at the university, a friend had one.  Fast, decent wind coverage, smooth as silk.  I've often thought it would be nice to find one again.  The chain drive I don't think suffered from many issues, so 4 out 5 on your list if you're willing to consider chain vs. shaft.

The VF1000FII* with the 18in front wheel and full fairing would be the one to go for, but it is as heavy as a K100RT with saddlebags. Carbs and chain are two points it fail to match, plus I know myself well enough to understand that I would ride MUCH too fast far too often. Been there, done that so many times when I bought the "wrong" bike because I imagined I had matured enough to own one. Unfortunately.

*The VF1000FII won the comparison test made by MOTORRAD against the FJ1100, GS(X)1100EF, GPz900R Ninja and K100RS - by a considerable margin.

[faffi]

I've toyed with buying BMW's over the years and could never take the plunge. The last time was taking a brand new RT out for a test ride and the transmission clunk was just awful and during the ride shifting it into neutral was difficult at best so I just turned around and brought it back to the dealer.  Then there are all the people I know who either have had final drive problems or have to buy extended warranties on their BMW's with plans to sell the bikes when those warranties run out.   

I'd buy the Honda or Norge depending on mileage and maintenance history but one bike is a sewing machine, which some people like and then there is the Norge and I'll take a twin that I can work on without too much difficulty.

The Deauville is also a twin, and they typically go 100,000 miles without even needing a valve adjustment. Even the old 650 with screw tappets. Most do not even bother to measure the valve clearances because they rarely require one, and getting to them is a serious PITA. Apart from that, they are simple to work on. The Norge should be similar, I expect.

This is my 1999 650 when I sold it exactly 5 years ago on this day


 

[faffi]

Choosing the "right" bike is always a challenge.  What are the tradeoffs?  Weight? Cost? Complexity? Service? Age (of you and the bike!) and so on.  Looking at your list, I'd say the older K bikes if you can find a nice clean example.  But they can have their own set of challenges.  Number one being oil getting past the seal and onto the dry clutch.  If and when it happens, it is a big repair job to tackle.  I noticed the Moto Guzzi V85 was not on your list?  It would seem to tick all your boxes.  Maybe I overlooked why you excluded it.  Early versions would now seem to be cheap enough.  Much easier to work on than an old K bike. Of course, nothing is written in stone.  If you pick something that turns out not to have been what you expected, you can sell it and try again.  I know people that go through motorcycles like changing socks!

Never ridden a V85TT, nor did I think of it as a bike with good weather protection - perhaps I am wrong?

[faffi]

On the behalf of experts both inside my head and worldwide, you be welcome.   

I don't think the Deauville was marketed in the US, but the Honda Pacific Coast was similar.

Fairings + Shaft drive tend to mean "heavy."

I think Honda was one of the few who attempted to produce a smaller, lighter touring bike with the Silver Wing, which was based on the CX500/650.

Shaft drive will add perhaps 20 lbs? Also, touring bikes tend to be made to carry bigger loads, so they usually have stronger, heavier frames than sport bikes. Then the luggage will add 15 lbs at least, and the fairing a lot more than the typical 10 lbs sport bike fairing. Suspension and wheels will also often be cheaper and heavier than the same items of a sport bike. The sum is a bike that is no lightweight. Very few, if any, bikes with full size touring fairings and luggage under 550 lbs.

Yes, the GL500 Silver Wing was the first "full touring bike" in that class, with the fairing off the Gold WIng 1100 and saddlebags off the CBX ProLink and a top box of its own. In Japan, the engine was downsized to a 400. The 650 was basically the same as the 500, with a bit more bore and stroke to get it to 673cc.

The PC800 got its engine from the Shadow 800, but tuned a bit differently. The luggage compartment opened like the trunk of a car. It had tiny covers all over the bike to give owners access to maintenance points. The engine had hydraulic valve lifters and needed no valve clearance adjustments. The fairing was not praised by many, where noisy turbulences behind it being the biggest offender. Finding parts today is not easy, especially in Europpe since it was never imported here officially.

[faffi]

The bike I have owned with the best weather protection was the 1996 Suzuki GSX600F Katana. It was also the least and most comfortable bike I have owned.

Weather protection: Only the shoulders and top of my helmet got wet when riding in the rain. But there was a lot of noisy turbulence going on behind the screen that was annoying listening to. Laying down or sitting upright, the noise was the same. Only by standing on the pegs, which was awkward what with the low handlebars, was the silence.

Comfort: It was not a pleasant position to be in, with low, narrow 'bars, a rock hard seat, and pegs high and back. But it was very easy to alter seating position, which I did every 5 minutes. So while I was never comfortable, I did not feel any worse after riding for 8 hours over a day. Never had a sore behind, either, due to the big, firm, flat seat and the ease of moving around to alter pressure points.

I sold it when I began going around fast corners with both wheels sliding and wanting more grip so I could go faster still. In other words, an accident was imminent. Better to sell. That was 20 years ago.

[faffi]

Short and fun test of a Deauville 650 - I am very familiar with the scraping sounds from my own ownership https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSl--iZLTQQ

[faffi]

This gentleman - perhaps a member here? - sold his Norge and kept his 700 Deauville. His last ride on the Norge before selling it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klCK0HFSHy8

[faffi]

Deauville 650 vs Pacific Coast 800 https://www.motorradonline.de/tourer/vergleichstest-honda-nt-650-v-deauville-und-honda-pc-800-pacific-coast-deja-vu/

Most will want to use google translate.

[Huzo]

Don’t work on finding the right bike…
Work on becoming the right rider.

[bronzestar1]

I've never owned a brick-engine K bike, but did have an R100RS and K1200S for a while.  The R was about as exciting to ride as a sewing machine, no character at all, slow, skinny tires, etc.  The big K was something else entirely.  That bike had the most comfortable OEM seat I've ever had over 40+ years of riding, and with 165 hp, was a beast to ride, but in a good way.  I've always thought the brick-engined K bikes were cool, and if I were to get one, it'd be a K100RS. 

The R100RS I had:




The K1200S I had:


   

[faffi]

Don’t work on finding the right bike…
Work on becoming the right rider.

If you knew me, you would know that is much too difficult

[Huzo]

If you knew me, you would know that is much too difficult

The best trip I ever did was on this.


The most excited I’ve ever been at getting a bike was this one



The one I would most like to get back is this one


The one I will never sell is this one

[faffi]

Cool