Quickshifter for V85?

[1wild1]

Quick overview of the topic. so long as you rev match the harm is not that great on the gears.  I sometimes wont use the clutch on the V85, more on 4-6. it is easily do able without the use of another device. A slight clunk is not bad, grinding noises are.

"While some motorcycle transmissions may incorporate synchromesh for smoother engagement, especially in certain touring or cruiser models, the vast majority of sports and racing motorcycles use unsynchronized, dog-engaged gearboxes.
 These are often referred to as "dog boxes" or "sequential dog boxes" and are designed for rapid, precise shifting, often without the need for a clutch.
 The absence of synchromesh means that riders must manually match engine revs to gear speeds to avoid grinding, but this also enables quicker shifts, which is critical in racing environments."

[Huzo]

Quick overview of the topic. so long as you rev match the harm is not that great on the gears.  I sometimes wont use the clutch on the V85, more on 4-6. it is easily do able without the use of another device. A slight clunk is not bad, grinding noises are.

"While some motorcycle transmissions may incorporate synchromesh for smoother engagement, especially in certain touring or cruiser models, the vast majority of sports and racing motorcycles use unsynchronized, dog-engaged gearboxes.
 These are often referred to as "dog boxes" or "sequential dog boxes" and are designed for rapid, precise shifting, often without the need for a clutch.
 The absence of synchromesh means that riders must manually match engine revs to gear speeds to avoid grinding, but this also enables quicker shifts, which is critical in racing environments."

That’s wonderful news, but the question is how do you “rev match” if you do not crack the clutch, I’ve dined greedily on most of the word salads served up in the preceding posts, but have not had that question addressed.

[1wild1]

Upshifts are easy, just let off the throttle for a split second and  back on it. You drop the rpm's to match the next gear.  next time you are riding in 3rd or 4th on the gas, give a pressure up on the shift lever then  ease of the gas and it will glide right in. Then work on the timing of off throttle just long enough for it to want to shift then right on the throttle like you would using the clutch only half the time.  Then try downshifting from 6th to 5th, less off the gas than upshift and as you are hitting the lever down you slightly rev it.  This will seem smoother at first and easier to try.   It is easier at higher rpm's, at least over 4k.  1-2 and 2-3 is gonna be the harder ones with the greater rpm change. I don't push it that hard. But 3rd and up I have if I'm playing and rinning hard.There's no way to tell you exactly how it's done, it's a lot of feel.   If you watch the schaff video on the v85 he runs the first half with no clutch giving a very good demo of how it's done. Even without the rev matching or easing the gas for a split second, enough force will cause the shift to happen.  I'm at 27k miles and I will hear a slight clunk 1-2-3 but not feel anything.  My honda fury clunks about twice as loud as the MG. my sons bmw s1000r QS is  super smooth and I wish we could have it that good, but we like it old school, right.

[Huzo]

I can crash it through without any problem too but, as you rev it up with the damn clutch engaged, please tell me how that will “increase the revs..”
Please answer THAT question..
When the clutch is not pulled, increasing the throttle will not increase the revs..(unless you let the bike speed up.)
Just admit that you can get away with it, please don’t tell me you know why.
But I’ll tell you.
You WON’t get away with it forever, but the next guy who gets it will pay your bill…

[Huzo]

You drop the rpm's to match the next gear.

Have you read what you just posted ?
Is that done with the clutch still engaged ? Lever still out ?
Will your revs drop with the clutch lever not pulled in ?

[jacksonracingcomau]

I think we all agree, it’s the outoblip feature of downshift qs that’s the clever bit, no need to pull the clutch.
How ?

Reminds me of paddy, on telly
Favourite invention?
Thermos
Why.?
It keeps things cold and it keeps things hot
Yes paddy
But how does it know?

[Huzo]

Ok that’s it…
Plenty of pivoting and semi witty responses, but no actual answers.

[Moparnut72]

You have to realize that the gear boxes in most bikes with longitudinal crankshafts have a harder job. There is no reduction in rpm to the gearbox like most bikes so the main shaft is spinning at crankshaft speeds making for a noisier shift as the dogs engage at a higher speed. I watched a video yesterday day of a test ride on a BMW R12S, talk about clunky shifting.
kk

[1wild1]

Have you read what you just posted ?
Is that done with the clutch still engaged ? Lever still out ?
Will your revs drop with the clutch lever not pulled in ?

I have no idea why you started this conversation.  If a video showing how is not good enough then don't do it.  It's that simple.  It comes across as you saying" but how do you feel the music?"  There is no actual answer.....
Think of it this way.  When you pull in the clutch the gears inside of the transmission are still spinning the same speed as before the clutch is puled in and you shift. Those gears are still experiencing the speed difference of them coming together and engaging but because the clutch is not engaged the shock is internal to the transmission with the rest of the drivetrain stress relieved . With or without the clutch the gears in the transmission are doing the same thing at the same speed difference when engaging, you are only taking out the motors torque. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE TRANSMISSION WHERE THE MAJORITY OF STRESS IS, that is why it clunks. When letting off the gas until the drivetrain is unloaded there is less stress than pullng in the clutch and using the clutch friction to drop the rpms.  Taking off from a dead stop would be a lot more pressure on the drive system than a clutchless shift. You are wanting excact rpm's to let the motor drop. A rider does not need to know all of the gear ratios and what the prm's will be at a the next gear change.  You simply need to relieve the stress on the drivetrain.  If you do not re apply the gas in the next gear it is no difference than just letting off the gas in that next gear for engine braking. The stress on the engine is not increased by a significant amount. The cush drive in the wheel can handle a lot more stress than the shift will cause.

18 wheelers would go through clutches all the time if they did not float gears.  The drivers are not watching and memorizing the rpm diferences for all those gears.  It is a feeling thing.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=7htaVwnoAGV6icAH

[1wild1]

why they call it a dog gear and how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8h7SCjiU314
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RikzgmPvmnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU1Ol5ZgRnI

[Vagrant]

It's sunny and clear here today. It might even hit 50 degrees. I'm going to hop on the V85, hit TWO in Suches and about 400 curves on the way up. Somewhere along the way I will forget I ever read this discussion while using the fingers on my left hand to shift up and down just like they have done for over a million miles and over 60 years.
Carry on!

[inditx]

This fellow makes the argument that autoshifters actually cause less wear on the gears.
I guess he should know since he makes them.

Check out this article;
https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/motorcycle-technology/motorcycle-quickshifters-are-they-safe-how-work

inditx

[ridingron]

Didn't watch the video, but when a producer of a product pushes it, it seems like an advertisement.

[Huzo]

Didn't watch the video, but when a producer of a product pushes it, it seems like an asvertisement.

Yep.

[kingoffleece]

I'm with Vagrant. 

[Huzo]

This fellow makes the argument that autoshifters actually cause less wear on the gears.
I guess he should know since he makes them.

Check out this article;
https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/motorcycle-technology/motorcycle-quickshifters-are-they-safe-how-work

inditx

Troy Mc Lure…

[2dogs]

A V85 needs a quickshifter like a fish needs a bicycle 

[inditx]

I’m sorry I started this thread
I am out and not at all sure I’ll buy another new MG given everything that’s going on
RideOn! Yall
inditx

[PeteS]

I’m sorry I started this thread
I am out and not at all sure I’ll buy another new MG given everything that’s going on
RideOn! Yall
inditx

Give it a try. Thats the only way you will know if its going to work for you. Then report back. I might end up using one on my V85.

Pete

[Huzo]

I’m sorry I started this thread
I am out and not at all sure I’ll buy another new MG given everything that’s going on
RideOn! Yall
inditx

What is it that’s going on that could divert you so easily ?
 People are gunna’ be people no matter what you buy mate. There are those that said not to mess with my V85 before I started and then after I (nearly) finished..? They climbed on board, worst thing that can happen is you find out some of them were wrong…

[Bulldog9]

Ok that’s it…
Plenty of pivoting and semi witty responses, but no actual answers.

What was the question again Huzo?  It's gotten lost on me.  My impression is you are saying you believe that clutchless shifting with or without a SS/QS gizmo will damage a transmission yes? Then you asked people to provide proof of the opposite?

I get your point, and don't disagree, but I've been shifting clutchlessly for 40 years and have never had a transmission related issue, or a ton of spooge or debris on a drain plug. Even on my 132K mile 1979 XS1100 with its famously bad 2nd gear dog failure. Anecdotal? Sure.  Evidence of skill and precision technique? ABSOLUTELY  lol...... Yes I kid. I think that your claims are also be anecdotal. You can always find an example of anything, but I'd bet a beer that the math would prove out that clutchless shifting done properly does not do significant damage to or effect the life, longevity, function of a MC driveline.

Because I am retired and my wife hasn't thought of a 'honey do' yet today, I'm gonna ramble.

A quick shifter/speed shifter is designed to allow a rider to shift clutchless. They've been around for years and employed several approaches. Most prior to TBW were for upshifts only. This was a typical/popular system guys in the FJR/Fz1 crowd used.




Generally, prior to TBW systems, this was done by a sensor on the shift lever sending a signal to cut the ignition momentarily when a sensor on the shift lever noticed movement/pressure on the lever to shift up. The gearbox is unloaded, making it possible to switch one gear up without closing or bliping the throttle. The 'computer' does it for you. When the spark comes back, you’re in the next gear. I've also seen other systems that will momentarily effect fuel, or ECU, and of course the TBW systems do the same my momentarily and faster than human blip the throttle, and enables up and down shifting.

For me, I never wanted to cut or patch into my ignition/ecu/fuel system, or have to worry about aligning a sensor on the shift lever, or for that matter, have a computer do what I can and rob me of the joy of riding.

IMO, It works best on a transmission that has been run in a bit, or past its first service and fluid change, requires a properly adjusted shift lever and throttle cables and it takes finesse and listening to the 'feel' of the bike.

I will preload the shifter up or down, blip/let off the throttle for a second. If at the right point and timing, the next gear engages smoothly and when complete, I go back on the throttle. I find the 1-2-1 ratios are less amenable to clutchless shifting, but 3-4-5-6-5-4-3 are smooth as silk in most cases. Most important is to learn the bike/transmission and find the window of smoothness. The speed/quick shifter does, handles the throttle blip faster and more precise than a fat old human like me.

**If it doesn't happen smoothly and easily, you are doing it wrong. It takes time.

That said, the CARC bikes are the most finicky of any I've owned. I find the Norge/Griso/1200 S all can be a bit lurchy in clutchless upshifting, especially 2-3-4, but are usually super smooth in 4-5-6-5-4. The Stornello, and Baby Breva are VERY amenable to smooth clutchless shifting up or down above 2nd gear.

GRANTED, I am not racing, not hamfooting it, just riding normally. I'm opposed to the SS/QS because I dont want a computer doing what I can/should do, or the complexity of a system that interferes with ignition and fuel. Been on a ride where the QS/SS add on system crapped the bed or caused problems. NO THANKYOU....

I'm sure it has been said, but Motorcycle Transmissions are NON Synchronous, but Sequential making clutchless shifting relatively easy.

Here is a great video to explain how MC transmissions work, and facilitate clutchless shifting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8xnIFf4id4

If you don't want/like doing it, with or without a QS/SS system, stock or added, on don't do or use it. But all that said, IMO, adding a QS/SS is unnecessary on a small block if the rider takes the time to learn their bike and do the throttle blip themselves.

[YellowDuck]

When you blip the throttle without cracking the clutch, how does that serve any purpose ? The rpm will not change unless the clutch is feathered.

The throttle blip (either up or down, depending which way you are shifting) is just to relieve the pressure between the dogs so the current gear can disengage and the next one engage.  I have been doing clutchless upshifts like that when under hard acceleration for almost 40 years, but only just recently learned how to clutchless downshift.  The latter is of limited utility on the street in my opinion, and even of questionable use on the track if you have a slipper clutch.  I am not really sufficiently coordinated to brake hard and blip the throttle anyway.  So a quickshifter with auto-blip would be great on my track bike - then I could use my limited skill and motor coordination to concentrate on braking, and let me foot do all the shifting.

[inditx]

What is it that’s going on that could divert you so easily ?
 People are gunna’ be people no matter what you buy mate. There are those that said not to mess with my V85 before I started and then after I (nearly) finished..? They climbed on board, worst thing that can happen is you find out some of them were wrong…

Not easy at all. I too have done my share of “making the ride mine”. Autoshifter aside, I only was asking to relieve continuous clutch usage, I’ve ridden Guzzis for years and owned more than I care to say.
Thw marque has me spooked now however and I have no Cadre or Hamlin close to me. I’m good with basic mechanics and mods but if parts get harder to find that’s another thing altogether.
inditx

[PeteS]

Mike Tiberio’s Convert would have been perfect. No hand levers at all. Brakes were integrated using only the foot pedal and with a few engines mods was able to use high gear only.

Pete

[Huzo]

Again, all good stuff.
But it’s the almost instant reduction of flywheel rpm that occurs in a fraction of a second with clutchless changes that has to be achieved by an uncushioned engagement of the gear dogs.
The much more gradual re engagement of the clutch following a regular shift, allows the dogs to engage with zero torque and the engine can spin up/down as the friction plate contacts.

[YellowDuck]

Again, all good stuff.
But it’s the almost instant reduction of flywheel rpm that occurs in a fraction of a second with clutchless changes that has to be achieved by an uncushioned engagement of the gear dogs.
The much more gradual re engagement of the clutch following a regular shift, allows the dogs to engage with zero torque and the engine can spin up/down as the friction plate contacts.

I understand what you are saying, but a good clutchless shift is very smooth, so I am thinking that in practice a lot of the difference between input and output rpm is made up during the brief moment that neither the previous gear nor the next one is engaged.  That situation has to exist for some amount of time during every shift or else the whole thing would lock up.  I don't think you are accounting for this potential for rev matching during the "false neutral" period in the way your are thinking about it.

And the proof is in the pudding.  I have regularly clutchless upshifted all of my bikes over 40 years of riding (three Suzukis, two Ducatis, one Royal Enfield and now a V7 850) and have never had a transmission malfunction of any type over several hundred thousands of km.  I have less experience with the downshifting and honestly I have my doubts that it is quite as benign. 

[michaell32]

I understand what you are saying, but a good clutchless shift is very smooth, so I am thinking that in practice a lot of the difference between input and output rpm is made up during the brief moment that neither the previous gear nor the next one is engaged.  That situation has to exist for some amount of time during every shift or else the whole thing would lock up.  I don't think you are accounting for this potential for rev matching during the "false neutral" period in the way your are thinking about it.

And the proof is in the pudding.  I have regularly clutchless upshifted all of my bikes over 40 years of riding (three Suzukis, two Ducatis, one Royal Enfield and now a V7 850) and have never had a transmission malfunction of any type over several hundred thousands of km.  I have less experience with the downshifting and honestly I have my doubts that it is quite as benign.

I think the biggest contributing factor is how close the gear ratios are. I wouldn't try it on my California but on my gsxr I never had an issue with a quickshifter or rolling the throttle. The guys that needed the dogs recut were spraying 100 shot and shifting at 14k rpm with a carpenter head/cam package. Cutting the power to the coils did drop the rpm quick enough for a seamless shift however bikes like the gsxr have a very lightweight motor designed for racing.  Those motors could rev up or down very quickly.  The v85 is making about a 1/3 of their power and probably shifting around half the rpm. As long as the gear ratios are close enough and the rotating assembly with the clutch is light enough I wouldn't have any worries. I don't have a v85 though so it's all speculation. 

[Ncdan]

I’m not going to attempt to address the technical aspects of this conversation, just add my existing experience with “no clutch shifts”.
I have a 1983 Honda CB1000C and this transmission can be smoothly shifted in any gear, including 1st to 2nd gear which can be iffy without experience.
I simply back off the throttle for an instant and quickly and firmly pull up of the shifter. There is no grinding or jerking, just a smooth shift. I think it’s simply the design of a superior designed transmission as my prior CB900s could also be clutchless shifted easily and smoothly.
I think the question that would need addressing is what are we, who do this, are actually accomplishing by making gear shifts eliminating the clutch???
The only thing I can say I do it for is to possibly lengthen the life of the clutch and cable and I’m not about to say that this practice significantly accomplishes this.
I would say that if there is even a slight chance off destroying a transmission, then it ain’t worth the effort.

[Huzo]

The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
 Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” 
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?

[Ncdan]

The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
 Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” 
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?

I asked the same question at the end of my response also and even though I do it quite frequently I don’t have a reasonable explanation. Possibly because on my bike it’s always just so smooth and trouble free. I don’t have to move anything except my left foot about a 1/4”.
In my case maybe just to lazy to move more body parts than necessary 🤔🤣