Reliability

[faffi]

Since reliability has been an issue of late, I began thinking about what we mean by that? I reckon it will vary from one person to the next.

For me, the most important thing is not to get stranded. Being able to limp home, even if it happens more than once, is easier to accept for me than being stranded, even if it happens just once.

Since I began driving in 1982, I have never been left stranded out on the road. That does not mean I have not suffered problems, only that I have been able to get the car home under its own power.

As to motorcycles, I have ran out of gas several times, but always found a way to get moving again.

As to mechanical issues that does not involve a crash, I have suffered two episodes that left me stranded. One that I could not easily have discovered, and one due to my own ignorance. The first was a Yamaha XS500 that threw its cam chain due to a shop failing to install the chain guide opposite the tensioner after an overhaul prior to me buying the bike. The second was also a Yamaha, the XV750/1100 I have now, where I fitted the wrong oil filter cover that over time starved the engine top end of oil. Cost me a cam shaft that I had a spare for.

OTOH, if I knew nothing about machines and relied solely on shops to service and repair my vehicles, I would have been stranded a numer of times, mostly due to various electrical gremlins. That is part of the game when riding old machines - I have only had 3 brand new cars and the same number of brand new motorcycles in my time. Come to think of it, only one of the cars and one of the bikes were trouble free, perhaps because I only had them for a couple of months each.

[Kev m]

See my reply to the other thread.

Statistically vehicles are far more reliable and far less likely to need roadside repair than they were decades ago.

Just because something COULD break doesn't mean it will.

Just because something has less electronics doesn't mean you can fix what breaks when it does.

And I've never been stranded by anything on an EFI vehicle that wouldn't have stranded me on a carbureted one.

[rocker59]

A few major fails come immediately to mind.  All on aged motorcycles:

I missed a lunch ride on my 1996 Sport 1100 a few years ago because the fuel line gave up halfway there.  Was helped by a random passerby who was a motorcyclist.  He loaned me a multi-tool and went for gas.  The bike was over 20-years old at the time.

I was on my way to New Mexico in 2013 when my 2004 Nero Corsa died on me as I rolled into Enid Oklahoma.  Long story short, Turned out to be a bad relay and a random stranger took me to an auto parts store for a replacement.  Only burned a couple hours, and was back on my way.

Returning from a lunch ride on my 2000 Bassa back around 2012, the bike quit on me.  Like it ran out of fuel.  Plenty of fuel in the tank.  A quick call to Chet for some advise and he called it.  The electric petcock gave up.  Luckily I broke down in front of a house which had a shop with an old tinkerer who had the snips I needed to cut the plunger on the petcock and get back on the road.

I'm sure there are more stories from over the past 30-years of motorcycling.

[Ncdan]

A few major fails come immediately to mind.  All on aged motorcycles:

I missed a lunch ride on my 1996 Sport 1100 a few years ago because the fuel line gave up halfway there.  Was helped by a random passerby who was a motorcyclist.  He loaned me a multi-tool and went for gas.  The bike was over 20-years old at the time.

I was on my way to New Mexico in 2013 when my 2004 Nero Corsa died on me as I rolled into Enid Oklahoma.  Long story short, Turned out to be a bad relay and a random stranger took me to an auto parts store for a replacement.  Only burned a couple hours, and was back on my way.

Returning from a lunch ride on my 2000 Bassa back around 2012, the bike quit on me.  Like it ran out of fuel.  Plenty of fuel in the tank.  A quick call to Chet for some advise and he called it.  The electric petcock gave up.  Luckily I broke down in front of a house which had a shop with an old tinkerer who had the snips I needed to cut the plunger on the petcock and get back on the road.

I'm sure there are more stories from over the past 30-years of motorcycling.

An honorable mention would be that in the three incidents you noted on all three you were able to get her up and going on with your ride, with basic tools and auto stores and without a certificate mechanic.
I have also had numerous incidents similar to yours in the past 50+ years and the outcomes was like yours.
However the bikes of today, which I have no distain, are not the same animal.
With modern bikes I have had issues that I could not address and had to get a trailer or fortunately was close to home and limped home.

[Wayne Orwig]

My take on reliability.

A coworker needed me to take him to the garage after work to get his Honda car. The timing belt had broken in his Honda, luckily not bending valves. The entire trip to the dealer he repeatedly said he could never have a Ford like mine because he had one break once and his Honda never fails. 
 
I was showing a few people in my garage how to do a valve adjustment on a Guzzi. My friend drove up in his SUV. After a while, he said 'I don't know why you guys like Guzzi's since they are broken all of the time". His Goldwing was at home with a broken throttle cable. 

Most of my roadside issues are because I ran out of gas. But I know ANYTHING can break, so I have an escape plan no matter what I am driving.

Anything can break.

And don't expect a roadside service plan to save you, ever. I had a plan on an RV. I had a flat tire in central Georgia and called them. Their reply was, it is Sunday, in Georgia, we will get someone out there tomorrow. No tow off the road, nothing. So I called Mulley, (for those that remember him). He gave me Leroy's phone number. Soon Leroy and a couple of guys showed up, changed my tire, and got me going again, cheaply. 

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

It's old now, but I think this is the most cited survey of motorcycle brand reliability:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2015/04/who-makes-the-most-reliable-motorcycle/index.htm
Their methodology isn't explained very directly, but it seems they surveyed owners for failures within 4 years of ownership and the mileage.

I agree there are different measures of reliability, with being stranded being the worst impact other than causing an accident. I consider any OEM part failure, other than the consumables outlined in the maintenance schedule, as being reliability issues.

The only failure I've had that prevented me from getting one of my motorcycles home or to a shop under its own power was the coolant reservoir bursting on my 1992 Ducati Paso 907ie. I've ridden bikes into the shop that probably shouldn't have been though, like a 2015 Ducati Scramber 803 with seized timing belt tensioners.

[Bulldog9]

2004 Breva 750 - I'm the second owner, and from what I understand the bike has not had a single failure, mechanical, electronic or otherwise. 20k+ I've only put about 400 mi on it. Having bought it for my wife. She's not interested so I'll be selling at this spring.

2007 Griso - again, second owner and not a single mechanical or reliability issue other than needing the oil pressure sensor changed out about 5 years ago. I bought it with around 4,000 mi and it's now sitting at 13k I think

2008 1200 Sport - 70k+ miles. again, I'm the second owner. I bought it from forum member, Ohio Rider, and he had several small issues with it over the years to include startis interruptus and a dash failure. When I bought it, it had a failing oil pressure sensor which I changed. But other than that it's Rock solid and I would take it anywhere anytime. It looks sounds rides and feels like a brand new motorcycle.

2012 Norge - 50k+ miles. I'm the third owner, and it has had several of the normal failures. First. Was it needed to be rollerized, second, was the lower sump gasket failed causing a loss of oil pressure, And a few other things. Surprisingly, it still has the original spark plug leads as they were carefully removed during valve adjustments, etc. I purchased a spare set from a F1 racing last fall and plan to install them sometime at the next valve adjustment keeping the originals as backups.

2016 Stornello 16k+ (I think) I bought it new in 2017 and have not had a single issue. The bike has been completely flawless.

Every motor vehicle has issues especially as the age, but I'm extremely impressed with how how my Moto Guzzi's have fared and how little they have required beyond routine maintenance and some sorting out.

As mentioned in the other thread, my xs1100 always had something small going wrong with it. Usually electrical or fuse related. I had to replace the stator at least once several voltage rectifiers, the wires on the vacuum advance would go out, and the fuse panel degraded and had to be patched repeatedly as well as the ignition switch leads, getting overheated and already too close together would melt and touch leaving and always on condition.

But my 2005 FJR 1300 was the absolute worst. In addition to being a ticker where the valve guides on the exhaust valves were defective, I also had a water pump fail, the thermostat stick, a radiator blow up (All separate and unrelated incidents). I had the gear shift lever break three times, centerstand failure,  two TPS replacements, worn out steering head bearings, constant cam chain tensioner issues, and it ATE batteries like a fat kid at a dessert buffet. It also absolutely roasted my lower legs and feet, even causing me to have Burns and blisters on my shins. Suffered with that bike until 2015 and 60k miles when I discovered the mighty and unparalleled GRiSO....

I don't have a single worry about throwing a leg over any of my Guzzi's and riding for as long and far as I want.

YMMV

[DoubleGuzzi]

Poor, unloved Breva (albeit one of the early ones).

[faffi]

I did not start this thread to show that new/old is better or worse. Instead, I think it is often down to (poor) luck, sometimes bad design and/or build quality control - and poor maintenance. The latter is especially common on older vehicles.

Of the 3 brand new cars I've had, the first was a 1988 Chevy G20 van, which was trouble free. The second was a 2011 Volvo S40, which was poorly built, poorly designed and very annoying to own. Very happy to see that go. The third is the car I have now, a 2017 Skoda Octavia, currently with 85k miles and counting. Have had a few annoying issues, like a clogged up heater matrix (known issue with VAG cars built between 2014 and 2018 that they do not own up to), a clutch master cylinder internal leak, plus folding mirrors and a drive shaft making noises from new, both fixed under warranty.

The 3 new bikes were a 1980 Honda CB100, which finish suffered badly after riding through two winters with lots of salt on the roads, but only a broken R/R went wrong after 10,000 miles. A 1983 Yamaha Seca 750 did not have any issues other than me crashing it - and smashing myself literally to bits - in 1200 miles of ownership. Not much time for anything to go wrong. Finally, a 1999 Kawasaki Vulcan 800A, which came with a wire going to one of the coils barely resting on the connector that I spotted when I went over the bike as soon as I got it home. Other than chrome rusting at the mere sight of water, I had no other issues.

Be that as it may, I would not be hesitant to go for multi-day rides in any car or on any bike I knew to be sorted, be that brand new or decades old. My brother has a 1958 BSA 650, a 2003 Harley Electra Glide and a 1977 Harley Sportster, among a lot of other bikes, but these three see the most use. The Sportster is his winter bike and wear studded tires during the cold season. He tours on both the BSA and Glide, often doing 500 mile days. Do these, especially the two oldest, require more maintenance than newish bikes? Absolutely. But if looked after, they have proven utterly reliable. Same with the several Guzzis he has owned, apart from the clutch on his long gone Lario.

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

Years ago Honda brought machine vision inspection to their poka-yoke process, which was especially important for their factories outside of Japan. They recently invited press to tour their Thai Honda factories and each step of the assembly process has automated photos taken and run through anomaly detection software that compare it to a baseline image. If a bearing isn't seated fully, a bolt not turned in enough, or a component was manufactured with a visible defect, they have an opportunity to catch it and pull it off the line. I'd be curious to know of Moto Guzzi do anything similar on their assembly lines. I imagine it's a very expensive setup and might be hard to justify depending on volume, where Moto Guzzi might not make enough bikes for it to be worth it even if it saved them some warranty claims.

[faffi]

The Japanese spend more time and money on quality control than we do in Europe and definitely in USA. The result is that they save more on warranties, because there will be fewer faults from the manufacturing process.

[SemperVee]

 14 Harleys and NEVER stranded, even as I expected to with commuting over 100 miles a day for 20 years .  Victory broken clutch cable left me tow trucked back home.  Norge starter wiring had me have a push start to get started to ride home!

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

Clutch cable! I did forget about one. 1988 Cagiva Tamanco. Clutch cable broke and bike stalled as I was letting it out when a light turned green. Very light motorcycle so I walked it through the intersection and all the way to a designated motorcycle parking spot in Boulder, CO. Called a friend at the local Ducati shop and he helped me load it in into his truck and take it to the shop. The clutch cable was unobtanium (especially in the USA) so we sent it off to Motion Pro and they made a replacement. I've since carried a spare clutch cable on the motorcycles I tour with that have one, including the V7 850. I also keep the original take-off clutch and front brake hand levers as spares on my V7 850 while touring.

[Bulldog9]

Poor, unloved Breva (albeit one of the early ones).

lol I like it, but it is too small for me and I need to make room for a 70's eldo or ambo. Also selling my XS750 Triple.

It's a sweet, fun little bike, and I've enjoyed the limited time in the saddle. If I didn't have the Stornello as my small light bike, I'd keep it.

 

[Tkelly]

Photos of Yamaha how much are you asking?

[Bulldog9]

Photos of Yamaha how much are you asking?

I'll send you a PM

[michaell32]

Coming from a mechanic background, to me unreliable means a part fails significantly more than any of it's competitors.  To date none of my vehicles have left me stranded but I have had issues.  The only motorcycle issue I have had was my 2004 R1.  It would randomly cut out and only idle.  The power would return after a few minutes and I could get home but I didn't trust it.  Yamaha later had a recall on the TPS and it didn't happen again however I sold it because I didn't want to take the chance of it returning while I was leaned over. 

When it comes to cars/trucks though there are several examples that stand out.  Ford 5.4 where the spark plug would shoot out of the head or the threads would come out with the plug.  I eventually refused to change plugs on those motors.  The later ones would break the plug off in the head.  Those were the only motors that I dealt with that had spark plug issues.

Early 4T65E and 4L60E transmissions.  Ive lost count of how many I have replaced of each but it was over 50.  Nissan CVT as well particularly in the Altima seemed to come up just as often.  The last time I went to the Nissan dealership to pick up parts they had one in the bay with 6 miles getting a new transmission.

Chevy silverado and express fuel pumps were by far the most common fuel pump to replace.  The DOD lifters on the Silverado were also a common occurrence.  Every once in a while a charger/challenger that had the hemi would come in for the same problem.  The lifter wore into the camshaft.  Most people wanted a cam kit to delete the DOD and dodge equivalent. 

I happily left the trade over 10 years ago but I remember a common pattern.  Fanatics of the brand would blame the owners even though the owners didn't have these problems with any other make or model.  Fanatics of the other brands would jump on the opportunity to share the story and make it look worse than really was.  As bad as these examples are, my grandfather told me they don't make them like they used to and thats a good thing.  Ive owned sever vehicles with over 300k miles on the original powertrain and the oldest one was a 1995.

[turboguzzi]

regretfully, this is an area where personal anecdotal experience is of VERY relative value. each one of us, including me, is a single data point statistically speaking, even if you owned +10 different bikes.
In statistics, there is such thing as "statistically significant "n"... even mechanics or dealers might not have a true mutli brand comparative outlook that is statistically significant.

The consumer report numbers based on 12,300 data points is pretty telling because it is normalized on volume figures, not "mine didnt breakdown in 100K miles" anecdotal. Moto guzzi is too small to appear there, but my educated guess it is right there with the two other European brands at the bottom. Interestingly, BMWs well known reliability issues doesn stop them from totally owning all European markets with the GS. Amazing brand power.

Faffi, if you are looking into cars too, this is an excellent data base.... regretfully it stopped collecting data in 2017
https://web.archive.org/web/20200621211853/http://www.anusedcar.com/




 

[faffi]

Thanks, I used to study them earlier in life, when I bought and drove older cars. Quite useful for checking out specific models. Here are the latest reports https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2026/

[blu guzz]

The best accessory today is the one that never fails, the credit card.  Turns out, you can fix anything with one.

[Wayne Orwig]

The best accessory today is the one that never fails, the credit card.  Turns out, you can fix anything with one.

Leroy wanted cash only.


 

[Moparnut72]

I had a friend who had an AAA towing business. I used to work for him weekends and nights in the 80's when I had time. We were in a location where it got hot. I don't know how many Ford Tauruses I towed. If the symptoms warranted I would just take the driver to where he wanted to go with the advice to let it cool down and it will run normally again, vapor lock was a regular occurrence.

My most scary experience was when I was in the Army in Denver. I had ridden my R75/5 to Conn on leave. I stopped in Ohio to get fuel. When I started to pull out of the station the bike felt like it had a hinge in the middle of the frame. I couldn't find anything wrong so I continued on one I got into 4th and up to speed all seemed fine. As I had to get back or be in trouble I finished my ride. Every time I stopped it did the same thing. Upon tear down it turned out the input shaft bearing in the trans had lost the cage holding the balls in place. So when I stopped the shaft would get out of alignment but when I got back up the speed it would self center during a shift, or at least is what I think. That bike had a couple of problems with the carbs and the stator when it was kind of new. I was kind of a beta tester, BMW was following my experiences with the bike. It was a very early one, first one in Denver manufactured in November 1969 and I was putting a lot of mileage on it. I put 35,000 miles on it during the 1st year and a half that I had it. Overall it was quite reliable as I put 100,000 miles on it before I sold it and replaced it with an R90/6. The only recurring problem was broken clutch cables, it had a substantial bend at the lever when it was pulled. I rode it home a few times with clutch less shifting. 
kk

[Moparnut72]

When I had a Harley I was a regular on the harleytechtalk and still am. Now I only visit the social thread but when I went to tech areas most of the problems I saw were a result of owners modifying their bikes for more power which most do. I could make a smart remark but I will refrain.
kk

[SemperVee]

I had a friend who had an AAA towing business. I used to work for him weekends and nights in the 80's when I had time. We were in a location where it got hot. I don't know how many Ford Tauruses I towed. If the symptoms warranted I would just take the driver to where he wanted to go with the advice to let it cool down and it will run normally again, vapor lock was a regular occurrence.

My most scary experience was when I was in the Army in Denver. I had ridden my R75/5 to Conn on leave. I stopped in Ohio to get fuel. When I started to pull out of the station the bike felt like it had a hinge in the middle of the frame. I couldn't find anything wrong so I continued on one I got into 4th and up to speed all seemed fine. As I had to get back or be in trouble I finished my ride. Every time I stopped it did the same thing. Upon tear down it turned out the input shaft bearing in the trans had lost the cage holding the balls in place. So when I stopped the shaft would get out of alignment but when I got back up the speed it would self center during a shift, or at least is what I think. That bike had a couple of problems with the carbs and the stator when it was kind of new. I was kind of a beta tester, BMW was following my experiences with the bike. It was a very early one, first one in Denver manufactured in November 1969 and I was putting a lot of mileage on it. I put 35,000 miles on it during the 1st year and a half that I had it. Overall it was quite reliable as I put 100,000 miles on it before I sold it and replaced it with an R90/6. The only recurring problem was broken clutch cables, it had a substantial bend at the lever when it was pulled. I rode it home a few times with clutch less shifting. 
kk

I almost forgot your comment made me recall.... I had a long frame R75/5 and commuted on it and lost the transmission, luckily as I has 100 yards from my driveway.  Took it to Browns BMW in Pomona and was fixed with a washer of some sort as I recall. .05 part with all the rest in Labor!   

[MerleLowe]

Ideas about reliability can be interesting.  I recall when I was getting my degree as an "adult learner", i.e. an old person, a woman I knew said she was going to buy a brand new car when she graduated since she already had a job lined up and she "could not afford to have a breakdown". 

She was driving a Crown Vic at the time with less than 100k miles.  I asked her how many times did her car break and leave her stranded in the past?  Never...  She then repeated that a new car would be reliable and not break.  I asked her if a warranty was important to her.  The answer was yes, of course.  I then asked, if new cars never break, then why do you care so much about having a warranty?  Although I can't recall the answer, I don't believe she spoke to me much after that.

My brother recently returned to motorcycling after a 30+ year hiatus.  He's always going on about warranties, extended warranties and service contracts.  I found him a nice used V85TT for him but he refused to buy it.  His reason?  No warranty.  I told him that on a bike, there's no guarantee that you'll even return home in one piece, so why worry about repair costs?  One decent get-off will cost a lot more in medical deductibles than even an engine failure would.

[Kev m]

Ideas about reliability can be interesting.  I recall when I was getting my degree as an "adult learner", i.e. an old person, a woman I knew said she was going to buy a brand new car when she graduated since she already had a job lined up and she "could not afford to have a breakdown". 

She was driving a Crown Vic at the time with less than 100k miles.  I asked her how many times did her car break and leave her stranded in the past?  Never...  She then repeated that a new car would be reliable and not break.  I asked her if a warranty was important to her.  The answer was yes, of course.  I then asked, if new cars never break, then why do you care so much about having a warranty?  Although I can't recall the answer, I don't believe she spoke to me much after that.

My brother recently returned to motorcycling after a 30+ year hiatus.  He's always going on about warranties, extended warranties and service contracts.  I found him a nice used V85TT for him but he refused to buy it.  His reason?  No warranty.  I told him that on a bike, there's no guarantee that you'll even return home in one piece, so why worry about repair costs?  One decent get-off will cost a lot more in medical deductibles than even an engine failure would.

In both cases it's possible the buyers in question are more concerned with not having to PAY FOR repairs than the time needed to get them.

[MerleLowe]

In both cases it's possible the buyers in question are more concerned with not having to PAY FOR repairs than the time needed to get them.

True enough, since you only know what I wrote, but knowing both well, the cost was way down the list.  My brother for example pads any trip over about 200 miles with an extra day just in case of a breakdown.  Every vacation cut short "just in case".

Also, shelling out 30k to replace a paid for car isn't much of a strategy to save money.  I do know one woman I worked with at a restaurant that finally got her cavalier paid off.  She was living paycheck to paycheck.  Something small broke on it like a radiator.  I offered free labor to fix it so she could finally get some breathing room financially but she went out and bought a brand new Sunbird instead.  Said she couldn't afford to fix her old car and the payments were the same on this new one.  Lol.

As for faffi's question about reliability, I'll go with his take on it.  If it gets you home it's not too bad.  That being said, I generally work on my own stuff so I can afford to overlook those little failures that only take a few hours to correct.  An ideal disposition for ownership of Italian machinery.

[Kev m]

True enough, since you only know what I wrote, but knowing both well, the cost was way down the list.  My brother for example pads any trip over about 200 miles with an extra day just in case of a breakdown.  Every vacation cut short "just in case".

Also, shelling out 30k to replace a paid for car isn't much of a strategy to save money.  I do know one woman I worked with at a restaurant that finally got her cavalier paid off.  She was living paycheck to paycheck.  Something small broke on it like a radiator.  I offered free labor to fix it so she could finally get some breathing room financially but she went out and bought a brand new Sunbird instead.  Said she couldn't afford to fix her old car and the payments were the same on this new one.  Lol.

As for faffi's question about reliability, I'll go with his take on it.  If it gets you home it's not too bad.  That being said, I generally work on my own stuff so I can afford to overlook those little failures that only take a few hours to correct.  An ideal disposition for ownership of Italian machinery.

That second example is exactly the mindset to which I was referring.

As for getting you home I don't think most modern reliability surveys tell us jack about that. Most weight equally any "fault" be it the Bluetooth didn't connect Carplay or the engine didn't start. And when they dig deeper they usually find the former way more than the latter.

My personal anecdotal experience (which I think is supported by my professional experience and the data if you can differentiate the failures) has our Land Rover and Ducati as reliable as any product we've had from JAPanInc. like Subaru, Nissan, and Honda.

My point once again is that vehicles in general are much more reliable today than they were decades ago

[Moparnut72]

Geez, she wanted something to replace the Crown Vic with something more reliable. I am not a Ford guy but Crown Vic's were one of the more reliable cars out there. Why would a bazillion law enforcement agencies use them if they are so terrible. Agreed that they got very good maintenance.
kk

[Ncdan]

In 1995 I was issued a brand spanking new crown Vic with the small V8, 4.7 maybe?
I put around 70k miles on it when it was taken out of the patrol division.
It ran strong and never had any significant issues during my time with it.
I am not a Ford man, but the car was impressive and a very solid vehicle.