“Innovate or die?”

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Recently watched a documentary on the Schwinn bicycle company that was started in 1895;by Ignaz Schwinn, a German born engineer in 1895 when he competed with 300 other bicycle manufacturers. He also acquired Excelsior and Henderson motorcycles but had the foresight to stop producing them in 1917 due to the great depression.

It showed how the company progressed through the 20th century and I couldn’t help notice and think of the many similarities to Harley Davidson. In the end, they we went out of business around 1989. Schwinn built their business on quality and the fact that they were USA made bicycles that were mostly sold to kids.

But they’re thinking was very shortsighted.  They almost declined the stingray bicycle, but grudgingly built it and its sales were skyrocketed. But They missed the beginning of the mountain bike craze in 1974 when Gary Fisher proposed building mountain bikes and they thought it was silly. “Who would ride bicycles in the dirt? “They also missed the BMX rage as well. (Probably for the same reason) And then in the early 70s, the 10 speed they produced were way too heavy. They didn’t see the adult fitness craze until it was too late. Trek, Specialized, Mongoose all saw the  opportunity and built their businesses on what Schwinn had missed. They thought Americans wanted quality built bicycles made in the USA, but they were wrong. America wanted bicycles that were lightweight, technically advanced and priced right.

A lot of the decisions they made remind me of Harley Davidson. Both companies focus on “their heritage” and “built in the USA”. Harley tried a different segment with the 500 and 700 cc bikes, but it was too late and then they tried the Pan-American, but they were so late to the game. Hopefully they will not continue to follow the path of Schwinn and wake up because they’re demographics is getting really old. Anyone else see the Schwinn documentary? Anyone see the similarity?

[BMCMOTO]

The book  "NO HANDS" documents the Schwinn downfall. In the book, the greed of the successive Schwinn family members is clearly documented. They had many chances to save the company by simply investing small amounts and following the advice of others. They were Schwinns and they knew better until there was nothing left of a once great name. Richard Schwinn continued to build great lightweight bicycles as WATERFORD BICYCLES until retiring recently, a year or so ago. Interviews with Richard can be found online.

Brian

[Bulldog9]

I had a NEON Green metal flake Stingray complete with the castration shifter banana seat and sissy bar....... Wore out quite a few baseball cards and clothes pins........... When I was in High School, I bought a Varsity Sport after saving all my $$  The summer the movie "Breaking away" came out several of us rode out to the end of Long Island, caught the ferry to CONN, and rode all the way to Newport RI before the police caught up with us and sent us home..... We were a bunch of outraged 9th graders in the summer of 79 lol. We wanted to bike up to the Ferry and fish/camp on Martha's Island or Nantucket. It was 3 nights and 4 days of freedom though. Sleeping under the stars, drinking Pepsi, cooking crabs and fish over a fire on the beach.....

Sad to see Schwinn went the way of the Dodo for REAL cycles.  In a harbinger of things to come, when that Varsity got stolen in college, I bought a Bianchi, and then another in 2007.

[BMCMOTO]

I thought maybe I should add to this thread that I am a Schwinn fan. I have been a Schwinner since 1962! First was a Typhoon for my paper route. In 1971 a 10 speed Super Sport in lemon yellow far too heavy compared to European and Japanese bikes but, they were just beginning to appear here about that time. I am still a Schwinner with a 1974 Paramount with Campagnolo components converted to city bike with upright bars etc., 1971 lemon yellow Super Sport single speed conversion (not the same bike as earlier), 1972 orange Super Sport all original, 1976? LeTour mixte frame in red converted to mountain bike bars (One Mary) etc. I also own a couple other classic brands as well, Viscount Aerospace Pro, and a Raleigh Superbe.

I'm basically a fan of anything with wheels and gears even clocks and watches.

Brian

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

Harley also took a huge misstep with tariffs in recent years, this time on the opposite side of their tariff mistakes from the 1980s. They moved production of RevMax engine bikes (Sportster, Nightster, PanAmerica) to Thailand so the bikes would be identified as made in Thailand
https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/decoder/Manufacturer/Details/24197

They did this in part to avoid retaliatory tariffs against the USA from the EU for those models they want to sell internationally, and the EU brought them to court for it and ruled that the move was tariff avoidance and not economically justified.
https://infocuria.curia.europa.eu/tabs/document?source=document&text=&docid=292471&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=8459089

So now Harley-Davidson have bikes built in Thailand that face the same tariff rate as if they were built in the USA when sold to Europe. Moving production of a few models to another country for a reason that didn't end up working out, that's not good for shareholder value.

The difference with Harley-Davidson and Schwinn right now is that Harley still have a chance to turn things around. Artie Starrs is no Willie G. Davidson though, I don't see the conditions being present for Harley to make a move in the right direction under current leadership and as a publicly traded company.

[Vagrant]

Sears could have been what is now Amazon. Anybody remember Montgomery Wards or IBM?
Get you head out of your ass or suffocate!

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

I worked at Sears Holdings Corp in the Online Business Unit before CEO Eddie Lampert let everyone go for turning a profit there. Leadership had to step in and stop people from innovating at Sears, so I view that in a much different light as the company was intentionally bankrupted to the benefit of Eddie's ESL Investments. I don't see anyone at Harley-Davidson trying to liquidate the company for their own personal gain, instead they keep focusing on short term shareholder value instead of a longterm plan for the company, their products, their employees, their dealers, and their customers.

[Tkelly]

Schwinn bought Henderson in 1917 and dropped it in 1931,thinking the depression would last 8 more years.Pat Fitzgerald a Chicago Guzzi guy has one of the last and best model and rides it up here in WI occasionally.Scwinn made the coolest bike ever in the 1950s,the Phantom,a cruiser with balloon tires so you could ride over curbs,springer front end ,built in horn and headlight,and luggage carrier on the back so toy could transport a buddy.

[BMCMOTO]

I worked for Sears from 1977 until 1990. In the mid 80s, they explained to employees that their competition was Kmart. My response at the time, voiced during a store wide employing meeting with executives from the company, was "If you think Kmart is your competition,  they will own you." . It was soon the case. Sears made so many missteps along the way but the lack of planning for an internet presence and the closing of the catalog business seem to be the biggest. Interesting to note that you were there as well.

Brian

[Moparnut72]

I have always thought that Sears should have gotten out of the malls and similar. Their frumpy clothes line and others were never going to compete with the fashionistias. What Sears was know for was the Craftsman products. The malls were not the places to sell those products. If Sears had concentrated on those products and opened a slew of stores selling those products there would not be Harbor Freight that it is today.

My kid bought a used 10 speed Schwinn as it was all he could afford. He really would have liked to have had a Specialized. It was a good bike, a bit heavy compared to the competition but very durable. He rode a couple of marathons on it doing very well. Speaking of old obsolete lines within a brand my first 2 wheeled vehicle was a Bianchi scooter. I believe it was sold by Monkey Wards, I don't know that for sure as I bought it used from a friend. As mentioned above Bianchi still produces high end well respected bicycles. I have a Raleigh Sports bicycle from the 50's. I paid too much for it but it is the same as the one I had as a kid with the Sturmey-Archer 3 speed geared hub.
kk

[bronzestar1]

One can see this happening with Guzzi, with their new water-cooled engines.  With ever tightening emissions and noise restrictions, they had to do something to stay viable.  To me, that was quite a leap in faith for them to go from the tried and true air-cooled engine to a completely new design of a water-cooled one.  Whether that will be enough to keep them in business, who knows, but at least they're trying to innovate so they don't die!   

[Moparnut72]

Hopefully the V7 can continue to meet emissions standards for some years to come but I wouldn't hold my breath. It's got to be one of the very few left, Royal Enfield seems to be handing there as well.
kk

[Dirk_S]

Hopefully the V7 can continue to meet emissions standards for some years to come but I wouldn't hold my breath. It's got to be one of the very few left, Royal Enfield seems to be handing there as well.
kk

I’m curious if the engineers made any considerations for adding an eventual oil cooler to the small block when they were working on the new (at the time) hemi head motos. If BMW can continue to sell air/oil-cooled motors at prices toward premium , ain’t no reason Moto Guzzi can’t also have their sights farther down the road. Now, whether they do or not…

[bad Chad]

I would think they did.  They made thousands of 1100 and 1200 motors with oil coolers, would only make sense they thought about when and if they will need to apply them to SBs.

In fact, all the SBs made today are air/oil cooled, as they have specific oil passages, galleries and spray orifices that are for cooling, not lubrication.

[Dirk_S]

I would think they did.  They made thousands of 1100 and 1200 motors with oil coolers, would only make sense they thought about when and if they will need to apply them to SBs.

In fact, all the SBs made today are air/oil cooled, as they have specific oil passages, galleries and spray orifices that are for cooling, not lubrication.

Sorry, maybe my usage of the terminology is incorrect, but I meant with regard to adding an external oil cooler. The Heron head small blocks, according to Dave Richardson, Pete Roper, and others, don’t accept external coolers easily. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the external coolers have helped motorcycles like the BMWs and Royal Enfields pass emissions—or maybe they simply help boost power?

[bad Chad]

I won’t argue with anything they said about the Heron heads. 

I just meant to say the the hemi head small blocks of which all are since around 2018?,  are likely to have been engineered to fit an oil cooler, should that become necessary.   Recall, similarly, the Norge, Breva, and Griso big blocks (excluding the 850cc versions) all had oil coolers, while the Cal line did not.

[davethewelder]

Me and my Green Sting Ray was my childhood growing up in the 70's.  Summers were heaven, leave the house after breakfast riding my BMX kitted Sting Ray through subdivision, and the trails of SE Michigan. "be home before dark" was the only thing I heard as left...  Really dont even care if Harley closes up and goes to china, the dealership experience is what I hate.

[ridingron]

" Really don"t even care if Harley closes up and goes to china, the dealership experience is what I hate."

I missed out on the whole Harley mystic. I did consider a Buell the first time around but just couldn't deal with the shaking. No matter how hard I try, I couldn't care less what happens to them!

[Tkelly]

The newer ,post 1980 ,Harleys don’t shake.

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

The newer ,post 1980 ,Harleys don’t shake.

You just gotta look at the engine to see the shake since it's rubber isolated from the rest of the bike :)

[Moparnut72]

The Softails '17's and earlier were internally balanced and quite smooth, I had both an '06 and a '17. The later M8's are all internally balanced although when they were first designed and tested they were too smooth so Harley put some vibes back in which I thought was stupid. I dumped my 2017 Slim S and replaced it with an Audace, major improvement in all ways.
kk

[Motormike]

" Really don"t even care if Harley closes up and goes to china, the dealership experience is what I hate."

I missed out on the whole Harley mystic. I did consider a Buell the first time around but just couldn't deal with the shaking. No matter how hard I try, I couldn't care less what happens to them!

Do yourself a favor and don't go into any bars in Milwaukee or York then! 

[Clifton]

IMO Harley has done a good job updating their big twin, it handles, stops, and runs very well yet it still utilizes their traditional 45* motor. Over the last 15 years most of the bike has been changed and improved from the brakes and chassis, to engine and suspension.

Pan Am was late to the show and unfortunately plagued with problems, mostly electrical.

It seems every time they have tried to be innovative it's flopped and cost them money. I wonder what they've lost on the Live Wire alone?

[ridingron]

Do yourself a favor and don't go into any bars in Milwaukee or York then!

Not a problem. I'm not much of a drinker at all. Maybe that's why I never cared for the whole Harley bar hopping thing.

Don't remember when the first go around for Buell was but I distinctly remember slowly moving around to escape the shaking a round  the bike did (the bike actually moved a couple feet) while the salesman explained where we were going for the test ride.

[ridingron]

IMO Harley has done a good job updating their big twin, it handles, stops, and runs very well yet it still utilizes their traditional 45* motor. Over the last 15 years most of the bike has been changed and improved from the brakes and chassis, to engine and suspension.

Pan Am was late to the show and unfortunately plagued with problems, mostly electrical.

It seems every time they have tried to be innovative it's flopped and cost them money. I wonder what they've lost on the Live Wire alone?

I wonder how much of their failures were the result of non-acceptance by the harley faithful, the dealers reluctance to promote them and how much was from company management dragging their feet?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I wonder if the SWM Stormbreaker vibrates as much as a Sportster. 
https://swm-motorcycles.it/swm-moto/stormbreaker-v-1200-black/

[Clifton]

I wonder how much of their failures were the result of non-acceptance by the harley faithful, the dealers reluctance to promote them and how much was from company management dragging their feet?

I believe the Live Wire wasn't only rejected by current Harley owners it was rejected by everyone. Same with the Street 500 and 750. I've heard often mentioned that "the Harley faithful" rejected the V-Rod because of its liquid cooled engine. But all the Harley owners I know thought the engine was fine, it was the rest of the motorcycle.

In the late 1990's through 2,007 Harley was very profitable and spent over $100,000,000 buying MV Agusta in the hopes of broadening their line into sport motorcycles. Two years later they sold it back for 1 euro losing over $100 million dollars. They lost even more closing Buell, and now over $300,000,000 on the battery motorcycle fiasco.

[MikeP996]

We bought a pair of Harleys in the mid 90's.  My wife was fed up with sitting on the back of my Ducati sport bike and decided to learn to ride and after going through the process/getting her license, we thought a pair of Harleys would be good for "trips." She bought a Low Rider, I bought a Wide Glide.

As you might imagine, being mostly a sport-bike type rider for most of my motorcycle life, the Wide Glide didn't work for me and I sold it within 6 months.  Wife kept hers for maybe 6 more months.  We were quite the pair on trips - her on her Low Rider, me on my 916.  But I will give those Harleys credit for one big thing - we sold them both for more than we paid (new) for them!!

[Frenchfrog]

Sorry, maybe my usage of the terminology is incorrect, but I meant with regard to adding an external oil cooler. The Heron head small blocks, according to Dave Richardson, Pete Roper, and others, don’t accept external coolers easily. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the external coolers have helped motorcycles like the BMWs and Royal Enfields pass emissions—or maybe they simply help boost power?

I looked into this at some depth for my 650 NTX and it's really rather difficult.One solution was to take the oil ways to the oil filter to feed the radiator but if my memory is correct then the filter is inoperative.Another way was simply to rely on  oil thermo dynamics for the circulation towards and from the radiator but again this is not great.It would work with an auxiliary electric oil pump though.
At the end of the day though Guzzi made the right choice in the new V 100 engine with liquid cooling but I would not expect a new small bloc V twin with that to be on the cards..

[cliffrod]

I believe the Live Wire wasn't only rejected by current Harley owners it was rejected by everyone. Same with the Street 500 and 750. I've heard often mentioned that "the Harley faithful" rejected the V-Rod because of its liquid cooled engine. But all the Harley owners I know thought the engine was fine, it was the rest of the motorcycle.

The VRod engine is/was a great power plant to ride.  It was a departure from the norm, with a lot of “it’s a Porsche” engine (meaning “not a USA engine) comments meaning that real Harley riders weren’t supposed to accept it as equal to their traditional Harley.  but few who actually rode one came back with big criticisms.

The bike that housed is a totally different story.  it was not great or even well-developed imho.  Unless you had a Street Rod version with mid bike footpegs, the forward riding pegs found on the rest of the bikes locked you into a generally uncomfortable non-negotiable position.  Relocation kits for the forward legs made little difference.  We tried it all and nothing really made a plain VRod better.   I really liked the Street Rod we had at the shop.  I equally disliked the regular V Rod.  Riding it was genuinely uncomfortable, to the point of being distracting & dangerous.