Cranky Norge

[Huzo]

I have pondered a particular feature of my Norge, which has developed over the last couple of years.
If I leave the bike for 3 or more days, it cranks a bit too long before it fires up (about 6 seconds or so) and when it does fire, it idles perfectly.
After running for as little as 5 seconds, I can shut it off and then hit the starter again and it fires immediately.
It is not a battery issue, because I have left it on a charger overnight to test that theory and it makes no difference.
The TB’s are well balanced and TPS is at 4.6.
The CO trim is at 6.
It really is a function of how long it has sat since the last start but again, if I leave it 5 days and it is slow to fire up, 3 seconds running and it will then re start immediately.
I have a new fuel pump and filter going in, as I wonder if it is a bit slow to bring the fuel pressure up.
Some injector cleaner could be advantageous as well. I have been away for a week, so I will shoot a video upon my return.
I have an apparatus to re set the sacred screw, but I need a set of unmolested TB’s to calibrate the manometer first.
Any ideas ?
Oh BTW..
If y’all are wondering why I need to reset the sacred screw, these are a set of almost new ones that have been molested.

[guzzisteve]

That's what happens to old bikes, how many miles? Just be lucky it runs, still.

[Bulldog9]

I have pondered a particular feature of my Norge, which has developed over the last couple of years.
If I leave the bike for 3 or more days, it cranks a bit too long before it fires up (about 6 seconds or so) and when it does fire, it idles perfectly.
After running for as little as 5 seconds, I can shut it off and then hit the starter again and it fires immediately.
It is not a battery issue, because I have left it on a charger overnight to test that theory and it makes no difference.
The TB’s are well balanced and TPS is at 4.6.
The CO trim is at 6.
It really is a function of how long it has sat since the last start but again, if I leave it 5 days and it is slow to fire up, 3 seconds running and it will then re start immediately.
I have a new fuel pump and filter going in, as I wonder if it is a bit slow to bring the fuel pressure up.
Some injector cleaner could be advantageous as well. I have been away for a week, so I will shoot a video upon my return.
I have an apparatus to re set the sacred screw, but I need a set of unmolested TB’s to calibrate the manometer first.
Any ideas ?
Oh BTW..
If y’all are wondering why I need to reset the sacred screw, these are a set of almost new ones that have been molested.

Huzo, I think its a fuel pressure issue. As the bike sits, pressure bleeds back into the tank (though could be injectors). It takes a few moments for the pressure to rise. This happens on most of my FI vehicles. I will cycle the key on once or twice to let the initial run of the pump repressurize the system. You can hear it change after the 2nd or 3rd. ALways fires up without issue when I do this. 

[pehayes]

Huzo:  Any chance  you have old/original fuel lines which might be cracked?  A very minor crack might bleed some fuel while running but you wouldn't see or smell due to the constant flow of air over the moving bike.  That same tiny crack might leak a lot of fuel when it sits for a few days.  Thus, the final fuel lines might have air and not fuel.  Preemptive changing of fuel lines might solve it.

How about a test?  Turn the key on and off several times without hitting the start button.  Each key duty cycle should run the fuel pump and will help to fill hoses and build fuel line pressure.  Then it might start instantly.

Otherwise, use it every day!  :-)

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[SemperVee]

 Huzo, mine acts the same when it has sat for a while.  When I am riding my 07 regularly it starts up fine. *So there is that, perhaps just part of the personality? 

[Huzo]

That's what happens to old bikes, how many miles? Just be lucky it runs, still.

Nah mate. At 30,000 km, I did a ride up to Tarcutta which is 496 km, I got there on one tank and it took 21.8 litres.
I did the same trip at the same (legal) speed a year ago with the bike at 220,000 km. I still got there on one tank, if the bike was losing power or any other thing was wrong, it would not have done the distance, the miniscule extra throttle setting for the worn engine would have resulted in a greater fuel consumption and consequent fuel exhaustion.
There is a more definitive answer I’m sure.

[Huzo]

Huzo, I think its a fuel pressure issue. As the bike sits, pressure bleeds back into the tank (though could be injectors). It takes a few moments for the pressure to rise. This happens on most of my FI vehicles. I will cycle the key on once or twice to let the initial run of the pump repressurize the system. You can hear it change after the 2nd or 3rd. ALways fires up without issue when I do this.

Ok mate, I am buoyed by that response. As mentioned, I have a new pump and filter to go in.

[Huzo]

Huzo:  Any chance  you have old/original fuel lines which might be cracked?  A very minor crack might bleed some fuel while running but you wouldn't see or smell due to the constant flow of air over the moving bike.  That same tiny crack might leak a lot of fuel when it sits for a few days.  Thus, the final fuel lines might have air and not fuel.  Preemptive changing of fuel lines might solve it.

How about a test?  Turn the key on and off several times without hitting the start button.  Each key duty cycle should run the fuel pump and will help to fill hoses and build fuel line pressure.  Then it might start instantly.

Otherwise, use it every day!  :-)

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Good input Haysie, (that was a good drink we had at Mandello…)
I will drill into that a bit.

[guzzisteve]

Ok mate, I am buoyed by that response. As mentioned, I have a new pump and filter to go in.

There you go, but maybe all you need is the pressure reg, that would be cheaper fix. It could be bleeding to cyl if injector orings are hard when off.

[Oca Grassa]

Mine does the same. If I don’t ride it for a few days it cranks longer than normal…but it also seems temperature dependent. IE, it does this when cold. I attributed it to being cold because it seems I have to leave the air tap open longer for warm up than normal also. This occurs even though I ride everyday in the cold.

When the temps are above 60F it seems this is not an issue. I open the tap for a cold start like normal, hit the starter button and it cranks over for a couple seconds and fires right off. It goes through its high idle cycle and returns to 1200 RPM and I close the tap. Idle remains at/returns to 1200 RPM for the remainder of my ride.

[auzziguzzi]

Consider that the ECU might, just might, be waiting for oil pressure to build up before injecting fuel or firing the spark plugs.
Oil galleries could bleed down, slowly, over a number of days and allow air into the oil circuit. Maybe?

My 2006 Norge (174,000km) exhibits the extended crank behaviour after stting for a week or so.

It also has a range of over 500km per tank and is noticeably more economical on hot to very hot days. 

Wonderful motorcycle!

[Bulldog9]

Ok mate, I am buoyed by that response. As mentioned, I have a new pump and filter to go in.

To be honest, it seems pretty normal to me. Even with a brand new fuel pump and check valve. I would expect fuel pressure to bleed back past the pump and into the tank if sitting for an extended period of time.

It's part of my ' manual of arms' I don't even think about it anymore. If the bike has sat for more than a week, I will turn the key on let the fuel pump cycle. Turn it off and on again and let it cycle again till it sounds normal. Sometimes after sitting for a long time when I turn the key I can hear the fuel pump activate and the relays click, but it's not that normal. Sound you hear.

But hey man you do what makes you happy.... I'm just saying what works well for me.

[Huzo]

Ok.
So the bike has not been started for about a week and I went out and this happened.

https://youtu.be/VwFax6hO1fI?feature=shared

To be honest, I’m a bit surprised it didn’t crank longer on the first swing, but as you can see it didn’t just burst into life. I fully expected it to crank for about 8-10 seconds and then staggeringly fire up.
Y’all will notice though, after running for 10 seconds, it fired (more or less) instantly on the second swing. In light of that, I contend that it is not a function of engine temperature, since the motor would not be any warmer after that time.
Anyone who says that the engine will be “getting tired by now”, will have to admit that it is just as tired after idling for 10 seconds and yet it fires up willingly after that period. It will actually do the same if I shut it off immediately and then hit the starter again.

It’s probably going to be a fuel pressure thing, but again I’m reluctant to blame the pump or filter, because I can warm it up and hold wide open (sort of) throttle for sustained periods on the road and it doesn’t show any starvation symptoms.
But I have a new pump and filter so they’ll go in anyway.
Hmmmm…..
Until I get hold of a set of unmolested throttle bodies, I can’t get a reading on the dump time, so consequently cannot set my flow rate to the “master” set.
I have set the plate on the left TB as close as I can possibly get to what looks right, but I have no way to know what is correct to achieve the target flow rate.
If I could just get a set of readings on a good set, I could dial mine in, set the balance and TPS at 4.6 with CO at +4, then see how it likes that.

[PJPR01]

6-8 seconds of delay is far too much...it should fire up within 1 second...mine is a 2008 with 60K miles, so admittedly far from the # of miles you have Peter.  Even if I don't ride it for a week or two weeks, or one day, it starts identically in terms of how fast it starts up.

When was the last time, if ever you had your fuel injectors reconditioned or replaced? 

I would think that fuel pump/filter might help, but if not, I'd check the fuel injectors.

[Huzo]

6-8 seconds of delay is far too much...it should fire up within 1 second...mine is a 2008 with 60K miles, so admittedly far from the # of miles you have Peter.  Even if I don't ride it for a week or two weeks, or one day, it starts identically in terms of how fast it starts up.

When was the last time, if ever you had your fuel injectors reconditioned or replaced? 

I would think that fuel pump/filter might help, but if not, I'd check the fuel injectors.

That’s fair Paul and thanks for your fast response.
I have never had them looked at but again, I can hold high throttle under load and it pulls like a train until the tank is empty.
I did plan to wait until next time it sits for a week and pull the injectors out and while pointing them somewhere safe, hit the starter.
If they are suspect, I would expect them not to shoot strongly from the get go, but build up to full delivery as the seconds pass.

Is there a parameter I can view on Guzzidiag in real time as I do a cold startup ? I just thought I might be able to monitor fuel pressure or some such.

[Huzo]

Here’s another little aspect.
The engine is still just off cold I’ll admit, but here’s what happens if I give it excessive throttle off the stop.

https://youtu.be/Gkuyll26psg?feature=shared

Now y’all might say it’s an unfair test, but it never used to exhibit that symptom, when warm it’s fine.
Paul.
Can you shoot a similar video with your engine on a cold startup after sitting for a few days and show me how it answers the throttle after 1 minute running ?

[John A]

On a cold start I’ve found that if I crank it a few seconds, pause and cycle the kill switch and then they usually start right away. I was led to believe that it puts the ecu in a start mode. I’m not so sure the ecu is that sophisticated but it does work.

[Huzo]

On a cold start I’ve found that if I crank it a few seconds, pause and cycle the kill switch and then they usually start right away. I was led to believe that it puts the ecu in a start mode. I’m not so sure the ecu is that sophisticated but it does work.

Oh…
Ok then.

[guzzisteve]

Maybe you need new ECU's; both of them or at least clean the plugs. A real PIA to get to or work on. OR get a new Chinese Mandello.

[BMCMOTO]

I'll second having the injectors cleaned and flow tested. Flow testing will/should include a leakage test when closed. This can usually be done locally at a diesel injection shop or such, take a look around your area. Diesel injectors used to be manual pintle type injectors, this is no longer true, most are some electronic type these days. Bosch is a big supplier of these parts and diesel shops are quite familiar with them. The counter guy where I take mine thinks they are "cute little beggars" his words. They usually can do the job in less than a day.

Brian

[Bulldog9]

FWIW, youre being anal about it.  Your fuel pressure bleeds down when the bike sits, and it takes a bit for it to build back up.  Cycle the key to fully pressurize the system, and embrace it. If that DOESN'T fix the problem, then delve deeper.

[Huzo]

FWIW, youre being anal about it.  Your fuel pressure bleeds down when the bike sits, and it takes a bit for it to build back up.  Cycle the key to fully pressurize the system, and embrace it. If that DOESN'T fix the problem, then delve deeper.

I did and it doesn’t.
It’s not too much to want it right, it’s trying to tell me something.

[guzzisteve]

It's saying retire me & ride V85!!! I heard it on your video, which was an accepted start in my technical eyes.

Even the 1st video from sitting a week only took 10-13 revolutions, I call that accept.

[PJPR01]

Paul.
Can you shoot a similar video with your engine on a cold startup after sitting for a few days and show me how it answers the throttle after 1 minute running ?

In your inbox now chief...shot a short video this afternoon.  Hope it helps!

[red stripeguz]

Mine is similar after sitting a couple of days.

[Stretch]

as I wonder if it is a bit slow to bring the fuel pressure up

This. As others have said, the pressure is dropping somewhere in the circuit.

Fuel pump? Injectors? Dunno what to suggest except replacing components.

Kind of an expensive way to troubleshoot, though.....

                                                -Stretch