Tuning V11 Bassa - one more time

[nwguy]

I installed a new TPS and crank position sensor and will tune tomorrow. I baselined the TPS at 150mV and screwed the left side throttle body (TB) stop in to 500mV. I did this with the bike cold. Hopefully the bike being warm vs cold will have no effect on this. 500mV is at the low end of the recommended 500-525mV range for the initial left side TB stop screw setting. I did the low end setting because my idle was high previously. Right side TB stop screw is out so it's not in contact. My plan (per instructions and WG recommendations) is to:

• Connect the throttle linkage arm to the left side TB (was disconnected to set the TPS)
• Start up the bike and warm it up as best I can in the garage
• When warm, disconnect the throttle linkage arm from the left side TB
• Turn right side throttle stop screw in to balance TBs

Instructions say to bike should be idling between 800 and 1000 rpm at this point. Last time for me, the idle was a few hundred higher.

• If idle is high, back out the left side TB stop screw to lower rpms to 800-1000 rpm and rebalance using the right side screw
• Open both air bleed screws a half a turn and hope idle comes up to 1100 rpm

Last time turning the air bleed screws had no effect. Since then I cleaned them and their holes with carb cleaner and used compressed air to blow out the holes.

• If opening the air bleed screws doesn't bring it up to 1100 rpm, turn in left side TB stop screw to increase rpms and rebalance using the right side TB stop screw.
• Reconnect the TB linkage arm, using the linkage adjustment screw if necessary to slide it over the left side TB pin.

That's my plan.

[michaell32]

When I did mine I connected the throttle body linkage after setting the base 150mv and then adjusted the throttle to 3.6 degrees. You should be able to use the 500mv instead of degrees.  Then I started the bike and when it was warm I held 4000rpm and used the throttle stop to balance the throttle bodies with the air bleed screws closed. Once that was set I used the air bleed to balance idle and set rpm. The bike ran fine and I haven't touched it since.

[Wayne Orwig]

I believe you adjusted the valves already, correct?
I set air bleeds to 1/2 turn and forget.
I set the 500mv, the right stop for balance at idle. (linkage still off the left and fast idle not interfering).
Then linkage on and high speed balance with balance screw on linkage.

Still have to wonder if your throttle plate is not fully closing with the problems you are seeing.

[nwguy]

I believe you adjusted the valves already, correct?
I set air bleeds to 1/2 turn and forget.
I set the 500mv, the right stop for balance at idle. (linkage still off the left and fast idle not interfering).
Then linkage on and high speed balance with balance screw on linkage.

Still have to wonder if your throttle plate is not fully closing with the problems you are seeing.

Your method matches Jeff B's instructions. I did adjust the valves first.

I suppose the only way to tell if it's fully closing is to remove the rear TB boot so I could look in there, correct? I did replace both boots last summer, and recently re-tightened all the boot clamps.

I did have it running well before, but it just had a high idle. So I'm guessing the throttle plate is closing ok.

[nwguy]

When I did mine I connected the throttle body linkage after setting the base 150mv and then adjusted the throttle to 3.6 degrees. You should be able to use the 500mv instead of degrees.  Then I started the bike and when it was warm I held 4000rpm and used the throttle stop to balance the throttle bodies with the air bleed screws closed. Once that was set I used the air bleed to balance idle and set rpm. The bike ran fine and I haven't touched it since.

I'm confused. Are you saying your throttle body linkage was connected for all balancing after after setting the base 150mV and adjusting the throttle to 3.6 degrees? I don't understand how you could balance via the stop screws while the linkage is connected. I know it would need to be connected to hold throttle at 4k rpm. Or did you disconnect it to do balancing with the stop screws? If so, at what point? And at what point did you reconnect it?

Did balancing idle with the air bleed screws affect balance at 4k rpm? The instructions I read say to balance idle first, then at higher rpms using the throttle linkage adjustment screw.

From Jeff B's instructions:

[michaell32]

I'm confused. Are you saying your throttle body linkage was connected for all balancing after after setting the base 150mV and adjusting the throttle to 3.6 degrees? I don't understand how you could balance via the stop screws while the linkage is connected. I know it would need to be connected to hold throttle at 4k rpm. Or did you disconnect it to do balancing with the stop screws? If so, at what point? And at what point did you reconnect it?

Did balancing idle with the air bleed screws affect balance at 4k rpm? The instructions I read say to balance idle first, then at higher rpms using the throttle linkage adjustment screw.

From Jeff B's instructions:

Once I set the base TPS voltage to 150mv, I connected the linkage and adjusted the screws so both throttles opened at the same time.  Then when I rotated the left TB to 3.6 degrees, the right one should also be at 3.6 degrees or very close.  I didn't check the balance at 4k rpm after the air bleeds.  This is from my memory from two years ago so some fine details like the exact screw I adjusted are missing.  I remember following Janguzzi's video on youtube for most of the steps with the only difference is I fine tuned the balance at idle with the air screws using my carbtune instead of counting the turns.

[cowtownchemist]

I balanced my V11 throttle bodies following the "Decent Tune UP" from the V11lemans forum.  In it discusses first closing the air bypass screws all the way and then backing them out one full turn. Then begin the balance procedure.  I followed the decent tune up from start to finish and am very happy with the results

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/19610-decent-tune-up/#comment-213277

[PJPR01]

I balanced my V11 throttle bodies following the "Decent Tune UP" from the V11lemans forum.  In it discusses first closing the air bypass screws all the way and then backing them out one full turn. Then begin the balance procedure.  I followed the decent tune up from start to finish and am very happy with the results

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/19610-decent-tune-up/#comment-213277

Agreed 100%, and not to be too pedantic, but 157 mv is the correct setting with the linkage disconnected AND the high idle screw completely backed off so it's not touching.

I don't think that 7 mv is sufficient to create problems but these V11 motors are quite sensitive to precise adjustments, and getting it spot on at least eliminates it as a possibility.  This is the experience of all the Spine Frame V11 owners (LeMans, Scura, Rossa Corsa, Sport etc...)

[nwguy]

I spent most of today trying to tune again. Pulled a boot to see if the TB plate was fully closing and if it was clean. Yes to both. I re-cleaned the TB springs with carb cleaner and then lubed them with spray oil. I watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF889tECKvg

and tried using that method. It's pretty different than Jeff B's or Brad the bike boy's guides. I reset the TPS baseline settings a few times today, some of the times to verify it was still close to 150mV after the TB plate opened and snapped closed. There really should be some kind of screw adjustment mechanism for setting the TPS. Any perceptible rotational movement throws the setting way off as does turning one of the mounting bolts an eighth of a turn.

At one point I was able to get it balanced at 3500 rpm and at idle. Thought I was done, but again the idle was high and trying to lower it with the stop screws f'd things up again. Started over again with TPS baseline and now it's backfiring lightly and runs roughly. I did run GuzziDiag and found that my CO trim was at 150. Tried setting it to zero after clearing fault codes and waiting 30 seconds between steps per a V11 thread, but that setting didn't stick.

One weird thing is happening. The tube from my Morgan Carbtune pops off of the brass nipple screwed into the right cylinder sometimes. I've taken to using wire ties to hold them on.

Anyway, I'm genuinely at a loss of what to do at this point. The frustrating thing is I had it running well a while ago, balanced with the Carbtune but with a high (1500 rpm) idle.  I guess I'll try again so I can sell it, even with a high idle, and hopefully recoup some of what I've put into it. Serious bummer.

[michaell32]

Have you checked to make sure the high idle lever isn't getting stuck on. My lever looked like it was releasing but the cam wasn't. Once I lubed the cable it worked fine. I lubed the throttle cables while I was there since they are the same age.

[guzzisteve]

I don't get it, at the very begining the baseline when checked was 168mv and it was running OK. I set baseline on all I set up at 165mv and they run great. The book is a guideline and says 150mv + or - 15mv, I find they run way better at 165mv. Not every motor runs the same, hence why the book gives you a variance of 15mv + or -. May be your issue or not. The 150 does NOT work on every bike. Motors are not perfect at all. Why it's called tuning. Forget the mv for idle & make it whatever it has to be to idle at 1100rpm w/stop screws, they are not all at 500mv, this is why it's called tuning.

[guzzisteve]

Have you checked to make sure the high idle lever isn't getting stuck on. My lever looked like it was releasing but the cam wasn't. Once I lubed the cable it worked fine. I lubed the throttle cables while I was there since they are the same age.

This could be what's wrong, that's why there is a screw w/hex head facing RH side to be backed out so not to touch the cam. Has to be an air gap.

Send me an airline ticket & I'll have it going in a jiffy!

[PJPR01]

This could be what's wrong, that's why there is a screw w/hex head facing RH side to be backed out so not to touch the cam. Has to be an air gap.

Send me an airline ticket & I'll have it going in a jiffy!

And super important that this screw is well backed off as well when setting the TPS to 157 mv (or range of 150 +/- 15 as Steve says).  Have not seen confirmation from OP that he backed off this screw after disconnecting the throttle linkage to ensure there's no pressure on the opening plate.  Helps to "snap" it back and forth a few times to ensure it's truly settled in.  Once the bike is running well, you can then return the screw to "close" but not touching for the high idle cam.

[nwguy]

Have you checked to make sure the high idle lever isn't getting stuck on. My lever looked like it was releasing but the cam wasn't. Once I lubed the cable it worked fine. I lubed the throttle cables while I was there since they are the same age.

Yes, numerous times. I also lubed it and worked it back and forth. I replaced the throttle cable last summer and also did the return throttle cable recall.

[nwguy]

I have seen my baseline TPS setting at 160-ish after setting it at 150, tuning and then checking it again. It never seems to stay at what I've set it at, even after tightening the 2 screws well. I replaced the originals with hex head bolts. Also replaced the throttle stop screws with cap head allen bolts so I can turn them by hand. I wish the throttle linkage adjustment bolt had a knob so I could turn it by hand instead of the 7mm wrench.

I definitely have an air gap at the fast idle adjustment screw on the right side. I made sure of that before setting TPS baseline.

I have been "snapping" my TB blades closed, and applying light pressure to make sure they're closed. Per the last video I cited, I also did this:
Turn TB stop screws so flaps hit them when fully closed
Stop screws should work only as a stopper, not the flap itself. They should not have an impact on throttle position.

guzzisteve, where do you live?

[guzzisteve]

OK, I get it. Georgia, too far

[PJPR01]

Have the rubber boots been tested for an dry or heat rot, possible air leak?  How fresh are all of the boots?

[nwguy]

Have the rubber boots been tested for an dry or heat rot, possible air leak?  How fresh are all of the boots?

They're new as of last summer with only a few hundred miles on them. Clamps tight. I'm going to look more closely at the throttle cables.

[michaell32]

Where did you get the new TPS?  If it is the Harley one I remember reading that they have a different voltage curve. They only things left for the high idle is a vacuum leak or a false reading in the new tps. I doubt the co trim is causing it since you said it has idled normal at one point with the same setting. Since you installed a new crank sensor, if the gap is not identical to the old one that could cause your back firing. I had an oil leak and replaced the oring on mine with one too thick. The small change in the air gap caused a lot of problems so I put a thinner oring in it and everything went back to normal.

[nwguy]

Where did you get the new TPS?  If it is the Harley one I remember reading that they have a different voltage curve. They only things left for the high idle is a vacuum leak or a false reading in the new tps. I doubt the co trim is causing it since you said it has idled normal at one point with the same setting. Since you installed a new crank sensor, if the gap is not identical to the old one that could cause your back firing. I had an oil leak and replaced the oring on mine with one too thick. The small change in the air gap caused a lot of problems so I put a thinner oring in it and everything went back to normal.

It's the PF3C one from CA Cycleworks. My new crank position sensor from MG Cycle is identical in length to the original. I used the same shim and o-ring, but smeared a little gasket maker sealant around it to make sure there were no leaks.

I have a friend who does all his own wrenching on his BMWs agree to come over with his Twinmax and be my second set of eyes. I have a feeling I'm overthinking this, perhaps from reading so many different methods for tuning. Seems like the essence of this is to:

Loosen the fast idle cable so it's not in play
Disconnect the TB linkage arm
Back out the TB stop screws so the butterfly valves fully close.
Turn in the TB stop screws so the blades just touch the screws.
Set the TPS baseline
Turn in the TPS side stop screw to a reasonable idle setting (500 mV)
Reconnect the linkage arm
Turn the air bleed screws so they're 1/2 turn out
Warm up the bike
Run bike at 3,500 rpm and balance using the linkage adjustment screw
If necessary, use the TPS side TB stop screw to raise or lower idle speed
Maybe used air bleed screws to balance at idle

[Tom H]

It's the PF3C one from CA Cycleworks. My new crank position sensor from MG Cycle is identical in length to the original. I used the same shim and o-ring, but smeared a little gasket maker sealant around it to make sure there were no leaks.

I have a friend who does all his own wrenching on his BMWs agree to come over with his Twinmax and be my second set of eyes. I have a feeling I'm overthinking this, perhaps from reading so many different methods for tuning. Seems like the essence of this is to:

Loosen the fast idle cable so it's not in play
Disconnect the TB linkage arm
Back out the TB stop screws so the butterfly valves fully close. Then set TPS.
Turn in the TB stop screws so the blades just touch the screws.
Set the TPS baseline
Turn in the TPS side stop screw to a reasonable idle setting (500 mV)
Reconnect the linkage arm NO... First balance TB's using non TPS side stop screw before connecting the link rod.
Turn the air bleed screws so they're 1/2 turn out Then redo the balance at idle with the air bleed screws turning one in or out as needed
Warm up the bike
Run bike at 3,500 rpm and balance using the linkage adjustment screw
If necessary, use the TPS side TB stop screw to raise or lower idle speed
Maybe used air bleed screws to balance at idle

Tom

[nwguy]

Tom, I clarified a couple things and revised this list. Please verify. Thank you.

1. Loosen the fast idle cable so it's not in play
2. Disconnect the TB linkage arm
3. Back out the TB stop screws so the butterfly valves fully close
4. Set the TPS baseline to 150 mV
5. Turn in the TPS side stop screw to a reasonable idle setting (500 mV)
6. Close air bleed screws
7. Temporarily reconnect the linkage arm to get the bike started and warmed up
8. Disconnect the linkage arm 
9. At idle, balance TB's using non TPS side stop screw
10. Turn linkage arm adjustment screw as needed so arm slips easily onto TPS side pin.
11. Reconnect the link rod
12. Turn the air bleed screws so they're 1/2 turn out
13. Balance at idle with the air bleed screws turning one in or out as needed
14. Run bike at 3,500 rpm and balance using the linkage adjustment screw
15. If necessary, use the TPS side TB stop screw to raise or lower idle speed
16. Maybe used air bleed screws to balance at idle

At least one procedure says idle will be low initially, and to use air bleed screws to raise idle speed to 1100 rpm. Do you agree? Do this at step 13? Or change idle speed at step 15?

[Tom H]

Tom, I clarified a couple things and revised this list. Please verify. Thank you.

1. Loosen the fast idle cable so it's not in play
2. Disconnect the TB linkage arm
3. Back out the TB stop screws so the butterfly valves fully close
4. Set the TPS baseline to 150 mV Or up to 165mv And leave it the heck alone
5. Turn in the TPS side stop screw to a reasonable idle setting (500 mV) 500mv you initial idle will be lower. 525mv the initial idle will be higher.
6. Close air bleed screws
7. Temporarily reconnect the linkage arm to get the bike started and warmed up
8. Disconnect the linkage arm 
9. At idle, balance TB's using non TPS side stop screw
10. Turn linkage arm adjustment screw as needed so arm slips easily onto TPS side pin.
11. Reconnect the link rod

12. Start engine and let idle. Idle will be a bit low. Open air bleed screws to raise idle to about 1100rpm.

12. Turn the air bleed screws so they're 1/2 turn out
13. Balance at idle with the air bleed screws turning one in or out as needed To Get IDLE BALANCE Again
14. Run bike at 3,500 rpm and balance using the linkage adjustment screw To be clear, this is the high rpm/riding rpm range balance

15. If necessary, use the TPS side TB stop screw to raise or lower idle speed

15. Comment. If you use the idle stop screw on the tps side to lower the idle, you will also need to adjust the non tps side the same amount. Also, with the linkage connected, lowering only one idle stop screw I do not believe lower the idle due to the link rod and the other TB's idle stop screw. Raising the idle (screw turned in) only on one side should raise the idle.

16. Maybe used air bleed screws to balance at idle

At least one procedure says idle will be low initially, and to use air bleed screws to raise idle speed to 1100 rpm. Do you agree? Do this at step 13? Or change idle speed at step 15?

Hope this helps. I have used Jeff B's procedure and it has always worked. Though on one bike the idle was a bit high even with the air bleeds closed. I did adjust both idle screws to lower it.

For CO trim. As per GD, you need to get the engine up to XX centigrade. Then make the adjustment, I do it with the engine running and ge the smoothest isle. Then do the save routine that GD shows to do. IIRR it says to use the kill switch to shut down and then the key, wait a few minutes before starting again??

Tom

[John Croucher]

The throttle bodies can suck air in around the butterfly shaft.

The seals can deteriorate and there is a very good chance they are installed backwards from the factory.

Every throttle body i rebuilt had 1 or both seals installed with the lip toward the throat low pressure side.  Allowing a vacuum leak.