Ease of maintenance, or comfort?

[faffi]

After four hours of sleep, my brain was partly satisfied, and as I drifted in and out of a doze-like sleep, I discovered that comfort on the moped is more important than serviceability. After all, we spend a lot more time on the road than in the workshop, no?

But today I did some maintenance on the Roamer, and I wonder if serviceability isn't quite important, after all. On the whole, the Guzzi is OK, but a lot could have been made easier. Like taking the rear wheel off and on. Or changing the rear brake fluid. Or filling the final drive with fresh oil. Or draining the gearbox oil. Or getting to the battery. Or changing the plugs and adjusting the valves. Especially for such primitive mechanical bike that are also is a long way from being comfy.

To take the rear wheel off, the mufflers have to be removed. To take the mufflers off, the heating covers have to be removed. And to get the wheel out, you either have to make a hole in the floor or put a case at least two inches thick under the center stand. Which doesn't come stock, and if you miss that you will need something else to hoist the rear in the air. Unless you want to take off the rear fender, of course, but after doing it once I won't do it again. And when the wheel is to be put back on, you have to glue the rubber dampers with silicone or something, otherwise they will fall out before the wheel is put on.

Changing the rear brake fluid is almost impossible without a helper or a system that is completely tight and does not let air in while pumping fluid through the system. If you have to bleed, it's nice (not!) that the air nipple is at the very bottom of the caliper...

To fill the final drive unit with fresh oil, you need a syringe with a thin hose, preferably, since the filling hole is pointing straight back and is completely horizontal.

When the gearbox is to be drained, you have to unscrew one of the exhaust heat covers and bolt off the footrest bracket including the entire brake system to make room. If you want to use a socket instead of a wrench, the exhaust system must be removed completely.

To get to the battery, the side cover must be removed, and it is held in place with 3 screws. Not the end of the world, but unnecessary.

To change spark plugs and/or adjust valves, you must first remove 6 small bolts on each cylinder, as these hold in place their own unnecessary mostly decorative cover.

Not one of these issues exist on a Yamaha big block (if one is allowed to say that about engines ranging from 700 to 1100 cc), which is also a shaft drive, air cooled V-twin. There is only one thing standing in the way, and that is the fuel tank that must come off to adjust the valves. Lift off the quick-release seat, remove a clip, undo the hoses for fuel and vacuum and lift it off. And if you own a Honda CX500, you do not even have to remove the tank. So much for Japanese complexity on simple bikes 

In fact, my Guzzi reminds me of my old Volvos with OHV-engines. Simple designs made complicated because the designer likely never held a wrench in his life. For example, the water pipe leading water to the heater matrix went directly over the exhaust manifold nuts, requringing a full coolant drain and new seals if the exhaust manifold needed to come off or just be re-torqued. And the heater matrix regulator sat inside the car, meaning if it leaked the carpet would get wet and smell funny. That sort of thing. Primitive design made stupic.

Anyway, it feels good to have shared this, I feel much better

[Tkelly]

Congratulations on finishing the projects ,I will be trying to get someone to work on mine,thanks for the warnings.

[SIR REAL ED]

An excellent rant!!!

Reminds me of the joys of working on almost any farm tractor built from the 1920's to 1950's.  Totally different design intents.

"Farmer Brown wants a tractor to use, not that needs to be fixed!"

Spark plugs, points and condensers, batteries, fan belts, engine oil, engine coolant, air filters, etc.  The lifespan of all these items were measured in not months or years, but decades!

[SIR REAL ED]

....

To get to the battery, the side cover must be removed, and it is held in place with 3 screws. Not the end of the world, but unnecessary.

To change spark plugs and/or adjust valves, you must first remove 6 small bolts on each cylinder, as these hold in place their own unnecessary mostly decorative cover.

....
Anyway, it feels good to have shared this, I feel much better

*Can you use a magnet to hold the side cover in place?  Toss those 3 screws.  Quick gain of at least 1/2 horsepower....

Throw away the decorative cylinder head covers.  The bike will run cooler, last longer and be faster without them.

Get creative!!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

None of that is an issue on Loopframe Guzzis... 

[faffi]

*Can you use a magnet to hold the side cover in place?  Toss those 3 screws.  Quick gain of at least 1/2 horsepower....

Throw away the decorative cylinder head covers.  The bike will run cooler, last longer and be faster without them.

Get creative!!

 

Undoing 3 screws is not the end of the world, and I can see the benefit versus platic pins and rubber grommets used on most bikes. Pins that break off, of course. But I remember me and my brother getting annoyed by having to undo two seat bolts to get to the battery on the Honda CB1100F's we owned circa 1990, meaning we were not used to that kind of stuff making life hard for us. After all, what's wrong with a hinged seat 

[turboguzzi]

mmm.... i hear you, but have you ever heard of autobleeders? if not, buy one 

if you have asked here BEFORE changing the fluid, we'd have told you!

[faffi]

I need to invest in a better bleeder - the ones I have tried fail to seal 100% around the bleed nipple, causing fluid to leak and air to enter. Never tried one that works on compressed air, though, only a container with a hose and one-way valve.

[turboguzzi]

no, not a "bleeder" tool,

menat an autobleeder nipple, also called speedbleeder.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/257032430168?_skw=GOODRIDGE%2C+SPEED+BLEEDER+1%2F4+X+28&itmmeta=01KPKH5HAP94DKABPT3AK65PKS&hash=item3bd853a258:g:vccAAeSwASBpw6JN&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAABAGfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xDljYLqY1nvwsESvnUr9ulEtiD2P7VUjQMaTDPuTmu2YmWc0DclGG7QWktAja%2B%2FN6LMIgA48sZz1PARjG%2B7pxR4blsBRNbP%2Bcl8oinvjw4fAPWH8Sv27MxvnvNYhkhbmh89GUdzvRcAudWB%2F6wmdvncMmn0dGM8PeOVIuDQDknCEeheo6TUNMNV1kloUNl6fGBvvQnDbOgYh2Da5Szya8%2BtnZ2y7MZfwnXJTbmAeFW06%2Flur93ZnqIZm2CjZ82MskqvC92CGX2fZZT%2FRo2Ruqz%2FGRXez4r5Y99JX5HBAFqZRV1WkCChD2gzdsbLt84Xxmc%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7qVlvG0Zw

if you wan to get even fancier,

https://www.louis-moto.it/it/stahlbus-vite-per-spurgo-freni-con-valvola-di-non-ritorno-10002856

there are also aliexpress ones....

[faffi]

Cool - thanks

[SIR REAL ED]

if you wan to get even fancier,

https://www.louis-moto.it/it/stahlbus-vite-per-spurgo-freni-con-valvola-di-non-ritorno-10002856

there are also aliexpress ones....

Those cost more than the Turbo Laser Plutonium Nuclear Particle accelerator spark plugs!!!

[SIR REAL ED]

None of that is an issue on Loopframe Guzzis... 

The lesson here is clear!  Only buy "a genuine, real, Moto Guzzi!"

The Harley riders were right!  Accept no substitutes!

[PJPR01]

In fact, my Guzzi reminds me of my old Volvos with OHV-engines. Anyway, it feels good to have shared this, I feel much better

We had 3 122S Amazon Wagons, a 145 E Wagon and a 245 DL Wagon.  I lived for years working on the 122S with my Dad and then by myself...nothing complicated on them to work on with plenty of room in the engine bay.

Valve adjustments, synching the SU carbs with a Unisyn, doing brakes, fan belts, replacing clutches, Ujoints were all easily accessible. 

Which models did you work on?

[faffi]

We had 3 122S Amazon Wagons, a 145 E Wagon and a 245 DL Wagon.  I lived for years working on the 122S with my Dad and then by myself...nothing complicated on them to work on with plenty of room in the engine bay.

Valve adjustments, synching the SU carbs with a Unisyn, doing brakes, fan belts, replacing clutches, Ujoints were all easily accessible. 

Which models did you work on?

142, 144, 164, 242 and 244. Ordinary maintenance was simple enough, but repairs could sometimes be more complicated than needed. Like changing bulbs in the instrument panel, replacing wiper mechanism, replacing the commonly failing temp valve on the heater matrix or removing the cylinder head.

[Perazzimx14]

For refilling the FD on my BMW a hair dye w/ graduations or small animal water bottle (make sure you knock out the BB)are the bee's knees.





Speed Bleeders I have never use but understand they are a bit on the fragile side. For me a old soda bottle and a section of 5/16 hose have worked a treat on many braking systems. Reverse bleeding also works a treat where you inject brake fluid into the caliper and up and out the master cylinder reservoir

[faffi]

I must add something to my original post. In their wisdom, Guzzi decided to use two, out of six on each side, bolts for the spark plug cover/HT lead retainer of not only a different size, but with Torx 20 instead of 3 mm inner hex found on the other 4. The real irony is that T20 is larger than 3 mm, but the torx screws have just 3 mm  threads, while the hex screws are 4 mm with much more substantial heads. WHY? Also, most bolts on the bike looks like they are painted, not plated. If they are indeed plated, the quality is naff.

[malik]

Re bleeding the brakes - came across a tip recently - use a cable tie to hold the hose to the nipple.
Going to test this before the weekends camping trip.
Today we're bleeding the NTX's brakes. Planning to try reverse bleeding here.
At least I don't have linked brakes - I've witnessed the difficulties some have with these.

You forgot to moan about changing the fork oil. On the V7 at least, the forks have to come out,
& to do that, the whole front of the bike has to be removed or loosened & pulled aside. It can be done, its
Not complicated, but it seems like a lot of unnecessary kaffufle.

[Dirk_S]

Turboguzzi. You have broken this thread with

no, not a "bleeder" tool,

menat an autobleeder nipple, also called speedbleeder.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/….

Good lord, Turboguzzi, we need to shorten that link up to bring this thread’s layout back to sanity. Can you replace that text with this:

https://ebay.us/m/OiGr4f

Speaking of fork oil draining, could one simply tap a hole near the bottom and thread a 6mm/5mm whatever bolt for easy DIY oil draining?

And yes—plastic cable ties around the hose over the bleed nipples is the way to go! Let’s you pump to your heart’s content.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Turboguzzi. You have broken this thread with
Good lord, Turboguzzi, we need to shorten that link up to bring this thread’s layout back to sanity. Can you replace that text with this:

https://ebay.us/m/OiGr4f

It's easier to just drop everything after and including the question mark:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/257032430168

I'm surprised at the 1/4" thread, that it's not metric!

[faffi]

Regarding changing fork oil. You can remove the bottom retaining bolts, after removing the wheel, but I prefer to remove the legs and let them drain, then flush them a few times with a bit of fresh oil. The old drain plugs let all that crap just sit at the bottom of the fork.

[SIR REAL ED]

Regarding changing fork oil. You can remove the bottom retaining bolts, after removing the wheel, but I prefer to remove the legs and let them drain, then flush them a few times with a bit of fresh oil. The old drain plugs let all that crap just sit at the bottom of the fork.

Yep.  I do the same with Kerosene.  invert them a few dozens times to dissolve the sludge.  Repeat until the Kerosene comes out clean.

[Cam3512]

SPEED BLEEDERS all around.  And they’re not fragile.  Get the stainless, hose and bag for old fluid.  Makes it so simple.

[Perazzimx14]

Yep.  I do the same with Kerosene.  invert them a few dozens times to dissolve the sludge.  Repeat until the Kerosene comes out clean.

Forks I have used kerosene, brake cleaner (the good stuff not the low VOC), acetone, carb cleaner, mineral spirits and even soap and water. Whatever is most handy on the bottom of the tool cart. As long as it dissolves light oil, doesn't hurt the fork components and can be flushed away its all good. I do prefer to remove the fork legs and disassemble the forks to be able to really clean everything verses just drain and refill.

For brake bleeding the the old fluid is ejected into catch bottle then once the flush/bleed is complete I dump the old fluid back into the rest of the bottle brake fluid I was using then cap it off and dispose of it.  No bags to buy or deal with. I also buy brake fluid in pints or multiple pints and each service I start with a sealed bottle. At $4 a pint its not worth saving any leftover fluid.

 

[SIR REAL ED]

Hinged seats used to be the best!!!

Now I like the seats that are held in place with one pin and release at the push of a button!

Or on some bike the pull of a lever.