Possible new Guzzi owner, please advise

[MikeP996]

Re "modified to run right"...   

I can't say about the current model V7 but my '21 v7 850 (euro 5) ran rather poorly at low RPM - lot of hesitation/bucking and erratic speed control below, say 2500 RPM.  I found it quite annoying in low speed situations in town.  You may have read about removing/disabling the EVAP system as a method to eliminate that known "characteristic."  I disabled it but it made no difference so I reconnected it.

I then installed an aftermarket device - Rapid Bike Fuelling Fixer - which is designed to solve the low speed fueling problem.  It made a substantial improvement and I was fairly happy with it but I thought there was still room for additional improvement and now have an UpMap remapping module - not yet installed.

It may be that the latest model, Euro 5+, has no such issue but it would be good to check it out if you are adamant about not adding any aftermarket parts to get it to run "as it should."  Obviously the best method would be to ride one if possible because relying on someone else's opinion of what is OK may not coincide with yours.  But absent the capability to test ride, pretty much the only option is to read/watch as many reviews as possible.  Try to "read [hear] between the lines" because many reviews are tainted by the bikes being supplied to the reviewer - who will never get another one from that maker/shop if he/she badmouths it - OR by folks who won't say anything bad because they bought one!  ;)

Some folks say they are perfectly happy with keeping the engine above 3000 RPM but I am frequently in low speed situations and it is dramatically less stressful to be able to trundle along at 1500 RPM in 3rd gear than it is to be at 3500 in first.  Any carbureted bike of the same displacement can do that easily and smoothly accelerate from that speed/gear.  It is totally an emissions issue/the way manufacturers have to deal with it but it seems as if they (manufacturers) are constantly improving with the programming - some manufacturers more than others. 

TBF, If virtually all your riding is moving along at speed, this may not be an issue to consider.

[Kev m]

1500 in 3rd is RIDICULOUS.

No wonder I've never had a problem.

[kingoffleece]

Exacally. 

[TN Mark]

Things like OEM exhaust and tuning are not about the engineers attempts to make the bike run in top form. They’re about government regulations and passing noise and emissions standards. The engineers efforts are to do the best they can within the rules the government allows.

Nearly every motorcycle today can be greatly improved with aftermarket tuning, intake and exhaust modifications. They’ll will run cooler, return better fuel economy and also have increased performance and throttle response.

My point of reference: my last three motorcycles.
A 2012 Victory Cross Country Tour, a 2013 Victory Hard-Ball and a 2016 Moto Guzzi Eldorado. All had aftermarket exhaust, an intake mod with an aftermarket air filter, and an aftermarket tune. The Victory bikes also had aftermarket cams installed. Did the bikes run ‘OK’ as delivered? Yes for some, not really for many, me included. The differences are simply night vs. day.

The need to modify is strictly up to the owner. But, if you want the bike to run at the actual potential of the engineers, aftermarket is the only option.

YMMV

[PeteS]

That gap between factory tune and what you can do with simple intake and exhaust mods is getting smaller and smaller. I doubt you could increase power on the new V85s by more than 5% going down that road. 20 years ago I would agree but today you have to go inside the motor to make any significant changes.

Pete

[buck]

I’m assuming D2 is the dealer you’re referring to. They do not seem to be overly enthusiastic about Guzzi in particular, but the sales person I talked to was enthusiastic about having the overall Piaggio line in the dealership - probably mostly because of Aprilia. I can’t fault him for that. People like what they like. I can say the dealership spent a considerable amount of money to obtain the brands and remodel the dealership to accommodate them. Since they spent money I’m sure they’ll want to recoup the investment and then some. Hopefully that means they will become a decent service center for the brands.

I have a ‘21 V7-850 with 28,000 miles on it, as well as a ‘22 V85 with 32,000 miles on it. Both bikes have been REALLY good. I have a set of Agostinis on the V7 with an UpMap. It just didn’t run that well stock, but it runs well with this setup. To that end I enjoy wringing the V7’s neck regularly because it sounds glorious. The V85 is bone stock and runs fantastic that way. I won’t mess with it.

I do all of my own service work and have an atlas tire machine and computer balancer for the multitudes of tires I seem to chew up. These bikes are easy to work on and I have no issues tackling anything they may need. I have an Icarsoft tool to talk to the bikes and clear the service indicator. I’m between Asheville and Burnsville with the closest Guzzi dealer being 2 + hours away. I order parts online as needed. Easy peasy, and I don’t miss having a local dealer.

[Moparnut72]

My '26 V7 is still pretty bad at low speed and low gears, 1st and 2nd. It appears to be to me that the RBW throttling is just too sensitive. I live at the end of a block long residential street with quite a few very young kids some just two on balance bikes. Riding down the street at 3K rpm in 1st just doesn't seem right and 2nd is an experience is like riding a bucking bronco. I find that squeezing the bar end weight helps to calm things down. Also I warm the engine for a few minutes while donning all my gear helps a bit. It is still a problem that I never experienced with my V7lll. If anyone comes up with a practical solution to this problem I would be interested. I rode a couple hundred miles yesterday to a Dr's appt. With the absolutely terrible roads here in northern California I gotta do something with the suspension. On one particular horrible stretch of road I thought the fillings in my teeth might get dislodged.
kk

[TN Mark]

That gap between factory tune and what you can do with simple intake and exhaust mods is getting smaller and smaller. I doubt you could increase power on the new V85s by more than 5% going down that road. 20 years ago I would agree but today you have to go inside the motor to make any significant changes.

Pete

An aftermarket tune isn’t always about adding Hp and Trq. It’s about smoothing out the running of the bike and its transitions from idle and full throttle. Once you experience a properly tuned stock bike, you’ll then actually know what the engine designers and engineers had in mind.

Adding aftermarket hard parts like intake and exhaust absolutely positively mandates an aftermarket tune.

[buck]

My '26 V7 is still pretty bad at low speed and low gears, 1st and 2nd. It appears to be to me that the RBW throttling is just too sensitive. I live at the end of a block long residential street with quite a few very young kids some just two on balance bikes. Riding down the street at 3K rpm in 1st just doesn't seem right and 2nd is an experience is like riding a bucking bronco. I find that squeezing the bar end weight helps to calm things down. Also I warm the engine for a few minutes while donning all my gear helps a bit. It is still a problem that I never experienced with my V7lll. If anyone comes up with a practical solution to this problem I would be interested. I rode a couple hundred miles yesterday to a Dr's appt. With the absolutely terrible roads here in northern California I gotta do something with the suspension. On one particular horrible stretch of road I thought the fillings in my teeth might get dislodged.
kk

Happy with my shock factory shocks on the rear of the V7. Not Ohlins, but not Ohlins pricing either. A significant improvement over stock!

[MikeP996]

"1500 in 3rd is RIDICULOUS.

No wonder I've never had a problem."

Consider that any carbureted motorcycle of years ago can do it very comfortably.  My 37 HP CB400F routinely piddles through town at 1800 RPM in third gear quite smoothly/easily and will accelerate smoothly in third from that RPM as I roll on the throttle.  There is no hesitation or stumbling, just smooth acceleration.  The ONLY reason that the V7 (and other current motorcycles) won't is due to the required fueling to meet emissions.   And because emissions regs/fueling have prevented it for some years it now seems "normal" for motorcycles to run poorly at lower RPM.  The fact that an 850CC computer-controlled fuel injected engine can't do what a pre-emissions carbureted 400cc engine can do pretty clearly shows the limitations that motorcycle emission requirements impose on low speed operation. 

It seems that some manufacturers are a bit better at the low speed mapping than others but the mention of low speed stumble, etc comes up regularly in modern motorcycle reviews though sometimes it is rather glossed over or very casually referred to.

Of course the low speed stuff to which I refer is only a problem if it bothers the operator.  If it doesn't then there is no problem.  I brought it up just to advise a potential buyer that my '21 v7 850 is not very smooth at low RPM; whether it MATTERS or not (or exists on the current models) is an individual decision...like what color to buy!  :) 

As an aside... Lots of folks on this and other MG sites have tried the EVAP bypass in an effort to gain some low RPM smoothness so clearly low RPM smoothness is an item of some general interest.
 

[Kev m]

A DECENT remap will correct for the unintended consequences of having to meet emotions standards, sure.

But it's unlikely they are going to improve power or economy without other changes or sacrifices.

My biggest criticism is against spoofers and crappy maps that do little much enrichen across the board.

As for much of the rest, EVAP and SAS, I think most people are fooling themselves but the hobby and industry is ripe with that.

[Bulldog9]

Tim,

Welcome.

This is a great thread with spot on advice and a bunch of fun side roads.

I wonder, have you ridden a Moto Guzzi? Sampled the New and older options? If not, you need to. You obviously are not focussed on the 'spec sheet' and Guzzi is drawing you, but nothing can replace an actual test ride and comparison.

For example, my first V7 was a Stornello and I was absolutely charmed by its spunky nature and surprising grunt given the low HP.  That said, if my first ride on a V7 was a normal V7ii or V7iii, I would likely not own one, though I imagine the V7 850 (especially the 10 model), the V9 Bobber Sport,  or the new V7 850 Sport would likely have brought me into the small block world.  I found the V7ii and iii boring, and flat. Still a Guzzi, but did nothing for me. almost 10 years later, the V7ii Stornello still lights my fire, and I love it.

Same is true for some of the others. I THOUGHT the new Mandello would pull me away from my GRiSO, but not a chance, and when I compared the V85 to the new Stelvio, the V85 got the nod. It's true that the price point on the V85 was better, but it just worked better for me even though the red white and blue trim package on the new Stelvio made me drool.

A few have mentioned that as we age, the slower or less capable motorcycle becomes more appealing.  That is what happened to me when I no longer enjoyed my FJR 1300. In order to truly ENJOY the ride, I had to be in 'go to jail or the morgue' speeds, and my reflexes and needs no longer aligned. The 8V Norge fit the bill PERFECTLY, and to be honest, gives up nothing to the FJR in real world Sport Touring Riding. ESPECIALLY top gear roll ons.

Point is, take your time, ride as many as you can, find the one that really speaks to you. Given your other motorcycles, I think a V100 Mandello would be perfect for you, though I have not ridden the V7 850 Sport.

[TN Mark]

A DECENT remap will correct for the unintended consequences of having to meet emotions standards, sure.

But it's unlikely they are going to improve power or economy without other changes or sacrifices.

My biggest criticism is against spoofers and crappy maps that do little much enrichen across the board.

As for much of the rest, EVAP and SAS, I think most people are fooling themselves but the hobby and industry is ripe with that.

Agree, spoofers and crappy/generic maps are a poor excuse for a band aide. I'm only referring to an actual map for your particular bike in its particular condition. When done correctly, even a box stock bike's performance will be greatly enhanced. When done poorly, well, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

[Bulldog9]

1500 in 3rd is RIDICULOUS.

No wonder I've never had a problem.

Come on Kev............... That's not ridiculous, that's CRIMINAL........... . Robbing the bike and rider.

I'm a big fan of 'ride your ride' and the Guzzi may be a V Twin, but it is NOT a Harley. I rarely ride and cruise at RPMS below 4K, and run it up just shy of redline.  Most of my buddies who have ridden my Guzzi's shift like they are riding a Harley at 2500-3500 RPM. They come back and say 'meh' Send them out again and say "Shift at 6K and ride it like you mean it" and they come back with ear to ear grins............

[1wild1]

IDK, I bought my 22 with the mods already installed.  Upmap and full open Mistral exhaust.  I might get a little hiccup at 2900-3000 if just putting along.  But I can stick it in 5th and run from 30mph up.  1500 rpm's is no problem. I came from the harley world so those higher rpm's were a little weird for me to get used to.  It does like to rev though and is loads of fun when wringing it out.  Usually I'm just putting around though.

[Kev m]

IDK, I bought my 22 with the mods already installed.  Upmap and full open Mistral exhaust.  I might get a little hiccup at 2900-3000 if just putting along.  But I can stick it in 5th and run from 30mph up.  1500 rpm's is no problem. I came from the harley world so those higher rpm's were a little weird for me to get used to.  It does like to rev though and is loads of fun when wringing it out.  Usually I'm just putting around though.

I've had 7 Harleys.... Well 6 and a Buell.... But even then I didn't spend any time at 1500 rpm in higher gears.

Seriously it's ok to develop some mechanical sympathy.

I remember when I went to buy my very first Guzzi (a 2000 Cali b Jackal). I went to take it around the block and the dealer said "don't ride it like your Harley".

But when I got back he said "I heard you pull away and realized it wasn't an issue".