Vintage Oil -

[SemperVee]

 Being a guy to who loves a bargain I came across 3 quarts I would estimate 10-15 year old Liqui Moly 10-60 at garage sale prices and thought why not?  It's not milk what could be wrong with unopened old oil?

 And that opens this discussion.

 Perfect 3 qts for Vroomhilda for her next oil change.  Opened it up and clear, no crystals, water drops, Perfect (Scotch) amber color.. seems ok to me?  Can't be the first guy to ask this...

[Kev m]

I'm under the impression certain parts of the additive package can settle to the bottom (no idea if this is actually true). But I'd be tempted to shake well or turn over for a bit before use.

Could be foolish, could be real.

[PeteS]

The oil is newer than your bike plus its a decent brand. Whats not to like? Newer is not always better.

Pete

[Dirk_S]

Lake Speed, Jr. has a degree in tribology (interacting surfaces in motion) and has been around automotive racing his entire life. He made a video about old oil, and essentially said you can check for yourself simply by dumping the oil in a clear container, checking that it’s clear and no additives have separated and sunk to the bottom of the bottle. He also recommends using a small mixer / emulsion blender to check that the anti-foam additive is still doing its job.

Here’s a link to the video if anyone’s interested:

https://youtu.be/E1T4XFPgBeo?is=yTQgOK_5OjCeCEtK

He noted that 3-5 years should be OK, but beyond that—well, his bottles that he tested definitely showed their age.

[SIR REAL ED]

As long as the oil is newer than the bike, you will be fine.......   

It never hurts to add a little bit of Ben Gay to the gas or oil for the older bikes....

[Vagrant]

If unopened they should be fine just shake them up as stated. I would bet the additive package is different. Possibly better or worse but you're using it in old bikes so what's the worry.

[SemperVee]

 Great info here for all to discern.  Luckily mine passed the tests,. clear amber -  oxygen foaming test being old Liqui Moly but I have yet to cut the carton up - that will have to wait for a bit.   I called the Company and got thru rather quickly and told under no circumstances to use oil older than 5 years from Manu date. Mine is 17 years old I was told.

[Perazzimx14]

 Great info here for all to discern.  Luckily mine passed the tests,. clear amber -  oxygen foaming test being old Liqui Moly but I have yet to cut the carton up - that will have to wait for a bit.   I called the Company and got thru rather quickly and told under no circumstances to use oil older than 5 years from Manu date. Mine is 17 years old I was told.

I knew it! Big oil is be inchoots with big tire and their 5-year expiration date.

[Dirk_S]

The old “just shake it up” advice has always seemed somewhat ridiculous to me. I’m not a highly intelligent man, and I don’t have expert training in the matter, but I do know that the human arm, including the muscles, tendons, ligaments, and energy stamina involved, will not suffice proper mixture of additives back into the oil. We’re talking molecular bonding—maybe dipole-dipole, ionic, London dispersion?—and that type of mixing cannot be achieved just by the human body. Like, much harder than trying to make a good homemade mayonnaise with only a spoon.

I brought up Lake Speed, Jr. He’s actually an expert. Easy access to laboratory testing. An academic degree in the very matter. In fact, he even posted a video as a follow up to the one that I shared above in which he addresses the topic of “just shake it up’. Here’s the link:

https://youtu.be/QeNLVUdoBU0?is=5o7CGqwcqsrFaJq_

When tests/experiments are made with proper control and parameters, I’ll follow that over popular ‘wisdom’ any day. Science wins. My grandfather used to dump his old engine oil out on the ground, despite the fact we had a lovely creek just 40 yards downhill from our barn. He always told me it wouldn’t do any harm…wisdom, right? Or maybe just ignorance. I don’t want my engine to blow, and the test results in Lake’s videos scare me enough. Better safe than sorry, right?

[PeteS]

Seems to me a crankshaft turning at 6000 rpm will mix that oil up is short order. Having run my Norton for 25,000 miles with broken piston bits sloshing around in the crankcase and no oil filter I think I have a better idea how much damage old oil with no piston bits and an oil filter will cause. Not much. Go fast, take chances.

Pete

[paulbricey]

I spent 10 years in crankcase oil additive development & we always 'shook the can' before engine testing/field testing/regular use - with lots of 'competing' additive chemistries, & especially in synthetic base oil, the additives are either trying to stay in the oil, leave the oil, or coat the inside of the oil container !  A short shake & the dispersant additive will hold it in the oil long enough to tip it in the engine.

[Dirk_S]

I spent 10 years in crankcase oil additive development & we always 'shook the can' before engine testing/field testing/regular use - with lots of 'competing' additive chemistries, & especially in synthetic base oil, the additives are either trying to stay in the oil, leave the oil, or coat the inside of the oil container !  A short shake & the dispersant additive will hold it in the oil long enough to tip it in the engine.

Do you believe that advice applies to old oil that has begun to oxidize, which in turn affects some of the additives? With your experience, I imagine you’re aware that oxidation is a molecular-level change, meaning the molecules are losing some electrons. Along with the degradation of the anti-foam properties, it doesn’t seem to me like shaking will fix aging issues.

[MikeP996]

My mom always used to say, If we [humans] don't have anything to worry about, we'll INVENT something to worry about... ;)

[Kev m]

The old “just shake it up” advice has always seemed somewhat ridiculous to me. I’m not a highly intelligent man, and I don’t have expert training in the matter, but I do know that the human arm, including the muscles, tendons, ligaments, and energy stamina involved, will not suffice proper mixture of additives back into the oil. We’re talking molecular bonding—maybe dipole-dipole, ionic, London dispersion?—and that type of mixing cannot be achieved just by the human body. Like, much harder than trying to make a good homemade mayonnaise with only a spoon.

I brought up Lake Speed, Jr. He’s actually an expert. Easy access to laboratory testing. An academic degree in the very matter. In fact, he even posted a video as a follow up to the one that I shared above in which he addresses the topic of “just shake it up’. Here’s the link:

https://youtu.be/QeNLVUdoBU0?is=5o7CGqwcqsrFaJq_

When tests/experiments are made with proper control and parameters, I’ll follow that over popular ‘wisdom’ any day. Science wins. My grandfather used to dump his old engine oil out on the ground, despite the fact we had a lovely creek just 40 yards downhill from our barn. He always told me it wouldn’t do any harm…wisdom, right? Or maybe just ignorance. I don’t want my engine to blow, and the test results in Lake’s videos scare me enough. Better safe than sorry, right?

I didn't watch the video, I can trust you did and will relate if it answered my question but, I didn't think shaking it up would necessarily get the additive to (searching for the term to say become one with, bond with, dissolve into) with the oil again. I sorta assumed it would help get it out of the bottles and into the crankcase where it could be pickup up, mixed up, and do it's job again with the oil as it is heated and cooled and pumped through the engine and exposed to acids forming with blow-by and moisture etc.

Is this point addressed or dispelled in any way?

[paulbricey]

You are right, mixing doesn't help aging effects BUT the biggest oxidation effect is when you stick it in the engine & pump it around the very hot piston area at same time you throw free radicals from partly burnt fuel at it. Since the oil already has high temperature anti-oxidants in it to cope with the piston heat/radicals conditions etc; it also protects the shelf life (synthetic baseoil even more so). I doubt there is significant oxidation of oil in a sealed plastic container for years versus the 'normal service', so personally I don't worry about keeping fresh oil for a couple of years before use !

To the mixing by shaking question; almost every additive in the oil (including the viscosity modifier) is in some way a 'suspension' rather than 'dissolved' in the classic sense . Shaking it just puts it back in suspension & the viscosity ensures it can't drop out fast (as does the dispersant and some of the other surface agents which basically have 'oil loving tails & oil hating heads' to keep things where they shouldn't normally be.).

& just to add bit more detail, the additive package itself is made up of lots of 'complicated molecules' suspended in mainly base oil (often mainly base oil !)  - keeping this lot together in storage in advance of blending the final oil (baseoil + package + viscosity modifier) is much harder than when it is dissolved in final oil & the actual concentrations of additive is very very low....

[Dirk_S]

I didn't watch the video, I can trust you did and will relate if it answered my question but, I didn't think shaking it up would necessarily get the additive to (searching for the term to say become one with, bond with, dissolve into) with the oil again. I sorta assumed it would help get it out of the bottles and into the crankcase where it could be pickup up, mixed up, and do it's job again with the oil as it is heated and cooled and pumped through the engine and exposed to acids forming with blow-by and moisture etc.

Is this point addressed or dispelled in any way?

I can’t recall if he points out if unbonded (unbound??) additives will re-bond once the engine is spun up. But he does mention in the second video that I shared that many of the additives found at the bottom of a bottle have already bonded to themselves. It’s not by happenstance that each additive’s molecules are hanging out with one another—they’ve lost the bond with the base oil and have linked up with their fellow molecules. He also points out, in the first video, that with the older bottles, despite shaking for 2 straight minutes, there was still sludge in the form of additives clumped together found at the bottom of the bottle. Just to get the additives back up into the solution, you’d have to actively dig that stuff off the bottom and try to get the particulates to separate from one another. Even still, dispersion does not mean a dissolved homogenous solution, and from his tests, it seemed that they wouldn’t be of much use.

Also—an acid has a positive charge—molecules that have been oxidized have also become more positive, and the Bio 105 that I’m currently taking tells me that environment isn’t going to cause a reduction (aka, add electrons) to whatever’s been oxidized.

Also also—worth pointing out that a good bit of these changes are occurring in unopened bottles because, though unopened, atmospheric moisture still gets in and does what it does. Not saying it’s the primary cause to these molecular changes, but water is polar and certainly aids in the rate of chemical activity.

[Dirk_S]

To the mixing by shaking question; almost every additive in the oil (including the viscosity modifier) is in some way a 'suspension' rather than 'dissolved' in the classic sense…

The multiple sources that I’ve read kept saying dissolved, and I’ve taken that to refer to one of or multiple weak bonds like Van der Waals, etc. Not saying you’re wrong, just that it’s my understanding that they’re indeed not just suspended.

[paulbricey]

It's a bit more complex ...

eg there is a class of viscosity modifiers that are made with Ethylene-Propylene copolymers - basically very long polymer chains with varying levels of Ethyene and propylene along the molecular chain. 

At very low temperatures the Ethylene sections of each molecule 'crystalize' out of solution BUT the propylene sections of same molecule stay in solution (and keep the molecule suspended/dissolved in the baseoil).   The effect of this is that the molecule 'contracts' in size and reduces the amount of visocity thickening it imparts on the oil at low temperature - so your engine still starts at -15C !.  As it heats up the whole lot molecule 'uncrystallises' and lengthens - & the longer molecule thickens the oil more at high temperature.

e.g. Acid neutralising additives (detergents) are defo not 'dissolved' and rely on the 'oil loving heads' of their molecules to 'suspend' their non-dissolvable acid attacking parts.

Just saying all this as additive packages contain lots of components that don't necessarily always remain in the bulk oil (ie not really dissolved as such); lots are looking for active metal surfaces to cling on to in preference to 'staying in the bulk oil'. That's how they actually work by attaching to surfaces and stopping Wear, friction, etc.

[Dirk_S]

It's a bit more complex ...

Really appreciate deeper explanations. Things can be simplified…until they start stacking on top of one another.

So, your thoughts on using an unopened bottle of engine oil that’s older than 5 years? 10 years?

[paulbricey]

Personally I'd be happy with 5 years (after a good shake !). 10 years I'd be hmmm and I'd probably be shaking & checking no major sludge layer in bottom of container & no weird looking blobs or colour change in baseoil, but if it looks OK then I'd probably be ok to stick it in an engine.

Weirdly I always change oil more frequently than required DESPITE once, for a patent development, running a couple of Ford Escorts for 100K+ with no oil changes (only top ups to level) but with a centrifugal oil filter (impregnated with ZDDP anti-wear)- at end they were in great knick in terms of inside engine & pistons wear/sludge/varnish etc.

[TN Mark]

So, the moral of the story seems to be the same:
Ride More, Worry Less.
And don’t fret about ‘old’ oil. Just give it a shake.
Like most of us have done all along anyway.

[PeteS]

Sounds like they should start putting “Best used buy” dates on oil now. Who knew it degrades?

Pete

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

FWIW, Liqui Moly say it's good for a minimum of 5 years in the container. That's not 10-15 though.
https://www.liquimolytt.com/faq-motor-oils

[moto]

I just sold my last ten liters of Eni iRide 10W-60 Racing oil to the guy who bought my Griso, for $15/liter. This was much more than I paid for them. As far as I know they were still good. He was happy.

[MikeP996]

Get one of these, quit fooling around with worry about oil... (read the instructions)

[SIR REAL ED]

Get one of these, quit fooling around with worry about oil... (read the instructions)

Yep!  Used oil is a proven quantity!  Why risk buying untested oil that is brand new?

[MikeP996]

When I was very young (riding in the car with my dad), checking/adding oil was pretty common at a gas station.  The stations carried name-brand oil in cans and "generic oil" in glass bottles.  My dad always went with the glass bottled oil because it was much cheaper than branded oil.  I assume that the bottled oil was used, filtered oil though I don't know that for sure.  None of his cars at the time ever had engine failures so the generic oil did the job!  ;)

About 10 years ago a friend rode his motorcycle from central Mexico south to Tierre del Fuego and then back north to the North Slope of Alaska - a 25000 mile trip.  When he needed to add oil (didn't change it during the trip) his choice of oil was, "Whatever the local grocery store had on the shelf."  The bike is still running just fine.  ;)  IMO we can really overthink this oil stuff.

[SIR REAL ED]

  IMO we can really overthink this oil stuff.

 

That's what makes conversing with "rocket scientists" on the internet about trivial subjects so much fun!

"I have four PhD's in oil viscosity and the effects of container material on stored oil longevity, and I think that......"

Best to trust the sensors and only ask questions of bots and AI to get the best possible outcomes!

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1151674317216519

[Moparnut72]

When I was a Weights & Measures inspector we pulled a lot of no name oil off grocery store and other dubious supplier shelves for testing. Most passed but too many examples didn't.
kk

[Dirk_S]

That person you know or heard of who smoked and lived to 95 years old proves that smoking is safe, I guess. Then again, the two people who raised me are dead due to conditions related to smoking.

Empirical evidence can yield pretty varied results when observed in a vacuum.