*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Travman]

For those that do not like scramblers, why?  I thought everybody thought scramblers were cool. Is it a height thing. I could understand that.

[Pescara]

I really wish there had been an Internet in 1966-67 so we could go back to the archives and hear the "Real Guzzi Is Dead" prognostications when they went from a horizontal exposed-flywheel 500 chain-drive single to a 700cc shaft-drive twin ..... !  Talk about a CHANGE!   Talk about the Soul of Guzzi .... !

The biggest change at that time was that the guy who designed the water cooled V8, the current big block v-twin and any number of other things quit, but he stayed in Mandello another 40 years or so doing other things, and so did the company.

The current situation is entirely different.

[dilligaf]

SRX6 said "I remember all of the same arguments being made in the nineties when the rumor mill indicated that Harley Davidson was developing a liquid cooled engine. It arrived to great fanfare as the V-Rod in 2001 and was going to be the future of the HD v-twin. Guess what? It is now ten years later and the V-rod is no great success and I do not believe that anyone considers it the future of HD. Nor does anyone consider it a "real" Harley Davidson"

AMF started development on the engine used in the V-Rod in the late 70ies.  They also had a liquid cooled 4 cylinder underdevelopment at the same time.  We were all quit excited and expected Harley to become competitive on the race track again.  Shortly after AMF sold Harley to a "group of investors" who stopped selling motorcycles and started selling Harley Davidson.  Like it or not, they knew what they were doing.
Matt

[SRX6]

BMW's best seller is now the S1000RR.

Nope.  Sales of the BMW crotch rocket are far from the top of their line.  The GS holds that title by a wide margin. The S1000 gets a lot of press play because of it's power etc but sales have not been huge at all.

"BMW S1000RR Outsells the R1200GS in the US for 2010"
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/bmw-s1000rr-out-sells-r1200gs/

I believe that worldwide figures differ, but the point is made.

[kevdog3019]

Until Harley has little success with it's air-cooled bikes, I will not believe those that preach change is completely necessary to survive and death is inevitable as an air-cooled engine.  Harley has a bunch of boneheads running their show, but they have a marketing department that has done brilliant things.  They also have dealers everywhere and parts readily available.  Harley is the biggest seller in the States??  Maybe??  Why not take a page out of their book?  What makes their engines so special at horsepower less than the Guzzi lump (per cc).  I could argue (if comparing to Harley's lump) that Guzzi's are too light, too performance driven, and too smooth and linear in their powerband.  
Again... Guzzi has a whole new market waiting to hear about them for the first time.  Funny how so many people like air cooled bikes but have never heard of a Guzzi.  Imagine converting some of them over that want more performance than their old Harley lump!  Problem solved with no change except marketing.
-Kevin
p.s.  It's all in how you want to look at it.  I'm looking at the greatest selling bike manufacturer to get my numbers.  Why would you guys look at any other one manufacturer for yours?      

[Joliet Jim]

Boy reading this thread I just feel so unworthy to ride my Guzzi, or Aprillia not sure which it is anymore.  Maybe i should only like it instead of love it.  I guess i just don't understand.  Maybe i should just buy a new Triumph Triple and see if i love it as much as my old poorly carbed oil leaking weak framed smokey exhaust non-electric start bonneville that only lasted a few years.

[kevdog3019]

Boy reading this thread I just feel so unworthy to ride my Guzzi, or Aprillia not sure which it is anymore.  Maybe i should only like it instead of love it.  I guess i just don't understand.  Maybe i should just buy a new Triumph Triple and see if i love it as much as my old poorly carbed oil leaking weak framed smokey exhaust non-electric start bonneville that only lasted a few years.

Sorry Jim, but you are supposed to only love something with ponies that smoke the busa boys!  Character don't matter 'cause it's all in the hp figures.  hp=$$ and don't forget it!   ;-T
Woops... except for Harleys.  ;)
-K

[Joliet Jim]

height of the pipes is what i don't like.  i like then low running along the sides of the bike

[Joliet Jim]

I think alot of the same people here are on the candle forum complaining about this new thing called electricity that'll change the way we light our homes.

[steveford]

Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall.  And, there is something dark between the frame tubes.  Radiator?

The valve covers look like vaporware.

I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...

Looking at the close up pic of the Cali. My thoughts also questioned a radiator sitting in there.

[CTYANKEE]

Here's the same bikes opened up in photoshop, don't know if it helps but maybe a few more details......

[LowRyter]

the real problem here is how to market two different lines between MG & Aprillia.  I think the two brands have most of the bikes, designs & technology needs covered as much as BMW (except for Gold Wings class) and wider than Ducati.   But the brands don't unify and the marketing doesn't equal the whole of the individual parts.

Aprillia has got the sport models and multi-cylinder bikes and Guzzi has traditional tourers & standards.  Even worse, the brands are totally separate, even the dealers are largely separate. They don't know how to synergize both names.  Would anyone want to see Dorsosuro or RSV4 with Guzzi badges?  Could Guzzi get the next superbike design?  Perhaps the new Norge would be powered by RSV4 engine?  Still, how can they leverage off the Moto Guzzi GP history without taking it away from Aprillia?  Does anyone want to see a bike called an Aprillia-Guzzi?

I think many of the pieces are in place, just how do you put it all together?

[Sack]

I think alot of the same people here are on the candle forum complaining about this new thing called electricity that'll change the way we light our homes.

Candle forum? What's that? I'm still posting on the Rub two sticks together forum!   ;-T

[Sack]

Back to the article in Motorcyclist about a longitudinal water-cooled V-Twin with canted forward cylinders. How does that work? How do you cant cylinders forward with the crankshaft running fore and aft? The piece goes onto say that's being done to increase legroom and place more weight toward the front wheel. But I can't visualize how this is to be done. Now if the crank was transverse and it was a parallel twin I have no problem. Someone shed some light please!   **C

[SRX6]

I think alot of the same people here are on the candle forum complaining about this new thing called electricity that'll change the way we light our homes.

Candle forum? What's that? I'm still posting on the Rub two sticks together forum!   ;-T

Wow, does rubbing two sticks together really work? My tribe makes sure that the fire never goes out (we're not sure how it got started).

[LowRyter]

how come Piagio doesn't release some photos?

This is back-assward marketing.

[guzzimike]

 I say bring it on.  I also frequent the Allpar forum and it is disappointing to hear folks over there talking about how Chrysler and Dodge need to survive in the coming market (spelled gas prices) and still believe the 318 is the way to go.  (Sorry GuzziMike, as much as I love the 318, the new Pentastar V6 & the 2.4 are the future)

ARRRGH...Bite yer tongue, Heathen..!


I'm still saving my Ducats so that I can get a 426 Hemi to drop into my '68 Dart...

Or maybe I'll just retrofit a stroker kit to my existing 383 and turn it into a 500ci Torque-Monster... ~;

http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htm

383 >> 496. (4.250" stroke/6.535" rod)  Approximate Bobweight: 2150

Turn that docile factory 383 block into a fire breathing, pavement twisting engine of almost 500 cubic inches, and no one (even the car show judges) will ever be able to tell it's not a 383... until they go for a ride! The time has arrived to dust off those 383 blocks we've been leaving in the back of the garage all those years. Chrysler made 4 times as many 383's as they did 440's, and it's no longer necessary to dig up a 440 block to get almost 500 cubes!


On a similar vein, reading about Piaggio this and water-cooled that, I'm sure glad that I have my old roundfin... 8)


And speaking of Water-Cooled, them dark/gray clouds we have overhead are looking kinda nasty this morning -


I'm going for a ride before it starts raining...


---

[rodekyll]

how Piagio doesn't release some photos?

This is back-assward marketing.

Call me cynical, but I suspect these pics have been carefully produced and released by Guzzi/Piaggio in the crappy form they take to incite exactly the conversation you all are having.  They wouldn't create nearly the buzz if they were billed as official photos and done in good light.  They're too well planned to be 'spy' shots.  The lighting and detail presented/hidden seem very deliberate to me.


$0.02

[LowRyter]

how come Piagio doesn't release some photos?

This is back-assward marketing.

Call me cynical, but I suspect these pics have been carefully produced and released by Guzzi/Piaggio in the crappy form they take to incite exactly the conversation you all are having.  They wouldn't create nearly the buzz if they were billed as official photos and done in good light.  They're too well planned to be 'spy' shots.  The lighting and detail presented/hidden seem very deliberate to me.


$0.02

that would make sense if there were any folks left to have a conversation with.  Piagio needs to make a big splash, rumor marketing isn't that effective if there's no one there to pass on rumors.

[bpreynolds]

Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall.  And, there is something dark between the frame tubes.  Radiator?

The valve covers look like vaporware.

I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...

Looking at the close up pic of the Cali. My thoughts also questioned a radiator sitting in there.

Oh frig.  This is a better image.  Someone please tell me those aren't forward boards?   :(

[Greg Field]

AMF started development on the engine used in the V-Rod in the late 70ies.  They also had a liquid cooled 4 cylinder underdevelopment at the same time.  We were all quit excited and expected Harley to become competitive on the race track again.  Shortly after AMF sold Harley to a "group of investors" who stopped selling motorcycles and started selling Harley Davidson.  Like it or not, they knew what they were doing.
Matt

Sort of true. AMF hired Porsche Design to pen a series of modular engines that could use components in common to make a twin-, a four-, and a six-cylinder engine. This was the NOVA project.

The later V-Rod is a different engine.

[rodekyll]

how come Piagio doesn't release some photos?

This is back-assward marketing.

Call me cynical, but I suspect these pics have been carefully produced and released by Guzzi/Piaggio in the crappy form they take to incite exactly the conversation you all are having.  They wouldn't create nearly the buzz if they were billed as official photos and done in good light.  They're too well planned to be 'spy' shots.  The lighting and detail presented/hidden seem very deliberate to me.


$0.02

that would make sense if there were any folks left to have a conversation with.  Piagio needs to make a big splash, rumor marketing isn't that effective if there's no one there to pass on rumors.

I'm not sure what you mean.  It seems to me that these two pages of comments and the article that spawned the topic suggests that there are still folks out there, and they're having a conversation about marketing Guzzi based entirely in rumor.  It's not a big splash, but do the bikes even exist?  

The really big question to me is -- Can you convince a traditionalist that a small block is a Cali?  Maybe that's the real intent here -- forming an unsuspecting focus group to see if they can sneak that one over on us.

[Greg Field]

Back to the article in Motorcyclist about a longitudinal water-cooled V-Twin with canted forward cylinders. How does that work? How do you cant cylinders forward with the crankshaft running fore and aft? The piece goes onto say that's being done to increase legroom and place more weight toward the front wheel. But I can't visualize how this is to be done. Now if the crank was transverse and it was a parallel twin I have no problem. Someone shed some light please!   **C

There's no light to be shed. It's a stupid idea. They're trying to get the cylinders out of the way of the rider's knees. Why have the cylinders there if you do not need them there for air-cooling? It'd be way smarter to move the cylinders into a configuration that makes sense on a water-cooled machine.

[Shorty]

The Cali as pictured  :-X would help solve the seating problem many "full sized" couples have with the current Cali line up. The bike looks stretched. The rear tire seems huge, as well. I'm thinking that Guzzi is trading some of it's traditional good handling for more comfort on this model. All the "cruiser " comparisons might have put pressure on the design staff. Good or bad? Let's wait for the tale of the tape.

[kevdog3019]

the real problem here is how to market two different lines between MG & Aprillia.  I think the two brands have most of the bikes, designs & technology needs covered as much as BMW (except for Gold Wings class) and wider than Ducati.   But the brands don't unify and the marketing doesn't equal the whole of the individual parts.

Aprillia has got the sport models and multi-cylinder bikes and Guzzi has traditional tourers & standards.  Even worse, the brands are totally separate, even the dealers are largely separate. They don't know how to synergize both names.  Would anyone want to see Dorsosuro or RSV4 with Guzzi badges?  Could Guzzi get the next superbike design?  Perhaps the new Norge would be powered by RSV4 engine?  Still, how can they leverage off the Moto Guzzi GP history without taking it away from Aprillia?  Does anyone want to see a bike called an Aprillia-Guzzi?

I think many of the pieces are in place, just how do you put it all together?

Now this is a reasonable post!  Piaggio is well-positioned with Aprilia and Guzzi.  If you folks want more horses, go buy an Aprilia superbike.  Why would a company want to transform a marque known for its engine (Guzzi) and make it do what an Aprilia will do?  Does that make sense?  I honestly don't mind water-cooling on THIS mill as long as it retains the same Guzzi mill.  I don't think it's necessary is all.  What's utterly unnecessary is to completely change the motor to the like of every other manufacturer for a few ponies.  Unless you want to start all over with Guzzi, it doesn't make sense.  Could you imagine Harley putting in a whole new mill so they got mega ponies and started all over?  What do you think would happen to the company?  You can argue that Guzzi sales are much less than Harley's, but I might remind you that it's not because of the motor.  As long as Harley's sales figure stay above most bike manufacturers, you will not convince me they need more horses.  Look to Buell for more evidence.  Buell had a hyped-up Harley mill that should have sold gangbusters according to some of you here.  Ok, you argue... they had poor support from Harley that never gave them a prayers chance.  Yep... much like Guzzi currently.  It aint the mill alone that sells lots of bikes.  What else does Guzzi do well to sell their bikes?  Nothing!  I'm fairly convinced the few sales they do make is only because of their engine.  It's sad to see how poorly they have been managed.  Change that first!
-Kevin    

[Seagondollar]

Greg:  I've admired the Guzzi V Twin of the past when I got off the bike.  When I rode, all I could see was the rocker covers and carbs.  But the feel of that engine - like NOTHING else.  That's what I loved. If making a liquid cooled engine allows Guzzi to be able to sell bikes in Europe in the future and survive, I'll love it.  

Besides, the first woman I took for a ride on my V7 Sport proclaimed loudly when we came to a stop:  "Ooooo, it shakes!"

[LowRyter]

Upon futher review of the Nuova Cali photos, that engine sure looks tall.  And, there is something dark between the frame tubes.  Radiator?

The valve covers look like vaporware.

I'm guessing this is a mockup of the liquid-cooled 3v mill...

Looking at the close up pic of the Cali. My thoughts also questioned a radiator sitting in there.

Oh frig.  This is a better image.  Someone please tell me those aren't forward boards?   :(

man, I hope they don't turn the Cali into a cruiser.

[Sack]

Back to the article in Motorcyclist about a longitudinal water-cooled V-Twin with canted forward cylinders. How does that work? How do you cant cylinders forward with the crankshaft running fore and aft? The piece goes onto say that's being done to increase legroom and place more weight toward the front wheel. But I can't visualize how this is to be done. Now if the crank was transverse and it was a parallel twin I have no problem. Someone shed some light please!   **C

There's no light to be shed. It's a stupid idea. They're trying to get the cylinders out of the way of the rider's knees. Why have the cylinders there if you do not need them there for air-cooling? It'd be way smarter to move the cylinders into a configuration that makes sense on a water-cooled machine.

I'm thinking mechanicals here, I understand the comfort and perhaps performance benefits. But how does one cant V-twin cylinders forward when they're tied to a crank running fore and aft? I can't envision the design.

[Big Block Jon]

When you take a look at the rocker-covers on the "spy shot" California, they seem to be unusually tall, which is very reminiscent of the Milipercento water-cooled conversion of the Griso.  The Milipercento bikes also have a very similar notch in the tank to accommodate the heads (which I assume are taller due to added plumbing).

[Big Block Jon]

Check out the similarities of the covers and tank relationship to this:



Could this be another case (as in Ghezzi and Brian) where the factory sees some outside customizers doing interesting things with the bikes and decides to bring them on board (or co-opt their ideas) as a way to get some nice engineering on the cheap?  Is this going to be the factory water-cooling?