*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Sheepdog]

Lower HP notwithstanding, I'll miss the 2 valve big block motor. 

[guzzimike]

One word: Fugly.

Agreed.

-

[JohninVT`]

The images are cellphone pics snapped during the Piaggio Group Monte Carlo meeting.  I don't believe that they're mockups but I have no special knowledge.  I just think there are too many details for them to be mockups.   

The tank has a Centauro flavor to me and as I said earlier, I'm undecided on the cut outs.  Judging from the pic of it next to the Scrambler, it has a very low seat height and it's not any larger than the current Cali(though the engine may be).

The whining has begun.  Took longer than I thought it would.   :BEER: 

[rodekyll]

Call me Ishmael, but I likes me a flaccid whale penis tank!    ;-T

But I don't like this trend toward trying to make the smallblock the new "Cali".  The proper Cali is and always has been a big block. 

[dgurovich]

Piaggio has a long tradition of excellent, smart engineering.  They, like Aermacchi, built aircraft long before they went into the two wheeled market.  Whaddya know?  They still do!
http://www.piaggioaero.com/

So let's just say, ya know, for argument's sake, that they have some good engineering.  And let's just say, for argument's sake, that Moto Guzzi's Quality Control has been "getting better", but really, the bar was pretty freekin' low there, since like, sometime after DeTomaso took over and the old guard left.

Let's also say, ya know, for argument's sake, that Guzzi holds on to their designs a little too long and that has hosed the company over since the '60s.  The Guzzino was in production long after its rivals went zooming by.  The Lodola?  The Stornello was in production until 1974!  Worst of all was the Falcone, which was an amazing bike in 1957 even, but in 1965 it was just a sad clown at the circus.

Everyone keeps wanting the past to just be like it is today, and that's just not gonna happen.  The new Ducati techno-cruiser vs the Griso?  Not even a contest, yet there are many people that would say the original LeMans was the better bike when put up next to the Duc 750s.  Put any Duc up against a modern Guzzi and it's just not the same. 

How many air-cooled bikes produce more than 100hp without having stupidly huge motors?  Guzzi has done a commendable job with getting all the ponies that it does out of it's air cooled motors, but, like the horizontal 500cc Single, it's just not a viable design anymore.

There are thousands upon thousands of Tonti-framed bikes out on the market.  If you want to have a nice air-cooled Guzzi that you can wrench at home and get parts for, well, eBay is your oyster.  The world doesn't want Guzzis like they are being made now, at 3000 units a year.  Guzzi will die if it continues down the path, just like it was dying when they stuck to the 500cc engine too long and were saved by sheer luck in having the V motor.  They were DEAD, and they got lucky by building a great bike and getting adoption in the US.

Guzzi US may have some issues and I'm sure there are dealers out there with early-onset gray hair, and substance recovery issues, but they have to find a better market or die.  Most of the people on this list haven't bought new Guzzis in the last 5 years, and I would bet that 75% haven't bought a new Guzzi in the last 20.  Unfortunately, the new Guzzi will not be aimed at the median demo rider on this forum -- they have to find a younger more affluent market.

How many Guzzi rallies have you attended when the "youngest" Guzzi owner was in their late 30's? 40s?

If you want to see what a water-cooled Guzzi California would look like -- http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/01/spy-photos-moto-guzzi-v7-scrambler-and-california/ - along with an air-cooled V7 scrambler.

[JohninVT`]

Oh my god.  I found a post by Danilo that I agree with every single word.   ~;

I wonder if some of the anti-Piaggio feeling is a reflection of the how the dealers feel about working with Piaggio rather than the consumer?  When I had all my warranty repairs done, I was extremely happy with how Piaggio responded and how they instructed the dealer to handle my case.   

[Greg Field]

I agree Danilo. Those new folks aren't going to by transverse-V engines that are water-cooled any more than they bought the air-cooled versions.

It's time to move on to—or at least add on—another engine architecture that has chance of bringing success. The transverse-V has been a sales loser for 40 years. The architecture is what keeps Guzzi stuck in the past, not the fact that it's air-cooled.

Guzzi has been bankrupt almost continually since the V7 engine's inception.

[Amboman]

Piaggio has a long tradition of excellent, smart engineering.  They, like Aermacchi, built aircraft long before they went into the two wheeled market.  Whaddya know?  They still do!
http://www.piaggioaero.com/

Piaggio Aero is a separate company: "In 1959, Piaggio came under the control of the Agnelli family, the owners of car maker Fiat SpA. Resultantly, as the wider ownership of Fiat in Italian industry, in the 1964 the two divisions (aeronautical and motorcycle) split to become two independent companies; the aeronautical division was named IAM Rinaldo Piaggio. Today the aircraft-company Piaggio Aero is controlled by the family of Piero Ferrari, who also still holds 10% of the famous car maker Ferrari."


So let's just say, ya know, for argument's sake, that they have some good engineering.  And let's just say, for argument's sake, that Moto Guzzi's Quality Control has been "getting better", but really, the bar was pretty freekin' low there, since like, sometime after DeTomaso took over and the old guard left.

DeTomaso cheapened everything when he arrived, driving the quality down from what the "old guard" produced.

Let's also say, ya know, for argument's sake, that Guzzi holds on to their designs a little too long and that has hosed the company over since the '60s.  The Guzzino was in production long after its rivals went zooming by.  The Lodola?  The Stornello was in production until 1974!  Worst of all was the Falcone, which was an amazing bike in 1957 even, but in 1965 it was just a sad clown at the circus.

This is what I admired most about Guzzi up until the late 90's - they were a conservative company that refined the product instead of replacing it every few years. Durable goods vs. disposable.

How many air-cooled bikes produce more than 100hp without having stupidly huge motors?  Guzzi has done a commendable job with getting all the ponies that it does out of it's air cooled motors, but, like the horizontal 500cc Single, it's just not a viable design anymore.

Why does anyone need more than 100hp in a motorcycle? IMO, it's socially and environmentally irresponsible to build such bikes.

Most of the people on this list haven't bought new Guzzis in the last 5 years, and I would bet that 75% haven't bought a new Guzzi in the last 20.  Unfortunately, the new Guzzi will not be aimed at the median demo rider on this forum -- they have to find a younger more affluent market.

"Guzzi" hasn't built anything I'd want since about '98. Bought my two new ones when they were making real Guzzis.

[Nick]

Photos are very grainy and hard to see details.  :) 8) ;-T

I like the California.
There are rumors that it may have a 3 valve setup

(si parla da qualche tempo di un nuovissimo 3 valvole)

The Scrambler.....nahhh h

[kevdog3019]

You guys are putting way too much emphasis on the engine!  Admit it... Guzzi has had long-in-the-tooth designs, poor dealer network, poor parts network, poor quality control, poor advertising, etc..  Will anyone argue with me there??  Again... how many people know about Guzzi?  This is most telling!  Have you guys lost sight of the big picture maybe?  If I knew more than 1 in 10 on the street that ever heard of Guzzi I might agree that they don't like their bikes or engine.  I will say this again... the current Guzzi engine is new to 9 out of 10 people. 
Make a stunningly beautiful Italian machine, bring in some good quality control, advertise it, get a solid dealer and parts network to support it, and there's your success formula.  You can't convince me that a new engine design in there current line-up of bikes will get those folks that say "Guzzi... what's that?" to all of a sudden pull their wallet out any more than they already are.  There's so much more to it that needs fixing first.
-Kevin   

[Travman]

I like both new bikes especially the scrambler.  Can't wait to see higher resolution pictures. 

[Travlr]

Are these Terblanche designs?

[guzziboy66]

I agree with kevdog.  Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR.  Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time.  My Guzzi is different.  They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996. 

Eric

[JohninVT`]

Are these Terblanche designs?

Can't be.  They don't look like rolling suppositories. 

I've tried to track down the ultimate source of the photos.  I saw them on ADVrider this morning and they were linked to Moto.blog.  Moto.blog says the images came from Anima Guzzista.  It does appear that is wherre these images originated.  I've been going back and forth as to whether they were photos of scale models as Chuck suggested because the light reflecting on the Cali tank seems odd.  However, on Anima there are some additional photos that show people's heads in the foreground as if the iPhone was held up to snap a surreptitious pic from the audience.

They are either authentic and from the Monte Carlo meeting or a very skilled ruse meant to crush the souls of the Italian Guzzi fanatics at Anima. 

Apparent from the pics over there are that the bike has twin shocks.  Must be a Tonti derived frame which is nice for the historical link.  I do think the gas is under the seat judging by the size of the heads and tank cutouts.  Looks like it's sporting radials on multi spoked mag wheels.         

[David Lee]

"These photos arrive directly from Montecarlo, where the Piaggio Group has carried out the dealer meeting, and ritraggono two new Guzzi Motion on which it is vocifera for a long time. The V7 Scrambler appears to surprise, often cited from passionate and cultori of the style vintage of Mandello, but never confirmed from the same house. California of new generation, instead, is from years on the mouth of all the guzzisti, and only now extension in most modern of the interpretations. Stopping to us on the style of this last one, we notice from the little photos available a clean evolution that recalls the old models cruiser of Guzzi, reinterpretandoli in modern sauce. A remake that it seems very successful, beginning from solid the front one, passing for the unknown motor (speaks from some time about a new 3 valves) till to arrive short to the codino and winning, son of the design of the 850 T3 California and the Custom small series of years 70/80. The V7 Scrambler is a innovation, but it knows already seen. A new tank, a beautiful manubrione and two high drainages, cannot certainly carry a gust of ancient freschezza to the bicylindrical one of 750cc, than also in this version it does not seem to change. The look much decidedly evocativo grintoso appears however and, as of the rest all the small vintage called V7."

-babelfish-

[cruzziguzzi]

I'd love to see more horizontal lies in the Cali but since I will be unlikely to get rid of the Calvin and don't want to be redundant in bikes - I will probably never buy one anyhow.

I specifically painted mine black with no striping to get rid of that nasty '80's melted-Euro-interpretation-of-an-American-cruiser look. Some day I hope to get around to re-shaping and enlarging my extra tank to lose that bit of dangling anatomy - and the side covers as well.

[Seagondollar]

[Seagondollar]

When I talked to the sales rep out near Asheville last fall, he noted that when they advertised less, they sold more.  What do you guys think it takes to sell Guzzis?  And yeah, a good dealer within 60 miles would be nice, but these are hard times for motorcycle sales (two dealerships out of business in Raleigh in the last 6 months)

[rodekyll]

"These photos arrive directly from Montecarlo, where the Piaggio Group has carried out the dealer meeting, and ritraggono two new Guzzi Motion on which it is vocifera for a long time. The V7 Scrambler appears to surprise, often cited from passionate and cultori of the style vintage of Mandello, but never confirmed from the same house. California of new generation, instead, is from years on the mouth of all the guzzisti, and only now extension in most modern of the interpretations. Stopping to us on the style of this last one, we notice from the little photos available a clean evolution that recalls the old models cruiser of Guzzi, reinterpretandoli in modern sauce. A remake that it seems very successful, beginning from solid the front one, passing for the unknown motor (speaks from some time about a new 3 valves) till to arrive short to the codino and winning, son of the design of the 850 T3 California and the Custom small series of years 70/80. The V7 Scrambler is a innovation, but it knows already seen. A new tank, a beautiful manubrione and two high drainages, cannot certainly carry a gust of ancient freschezza to the bicylindrical one of 750cc, than also in this version it does not seem to change. The look much decidedly evocativo grintoso appears however and, as of the rest all the small vintage called V7."

-babelfish-

That sums it up for me, in both spirit and verbage.

[kevdog3019]

I agree with kevdog.  Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR.  Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time.  My Guzzi is different.  They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996. 

Eric

There are lots of folks that look at these Guzzi's and think they're really cool bikes.  Once they do their research and find out the closest dealer is hundreds of miles away they stop looking.  If they can look past that and talk to a Guzzi owner who says "basically you'll learn to work on it yourself since it's got lots of nigglies and it's better to do the work yourself as well as order the parts yourself since it takes so long to get them through a dealer".  My God, is it any wonder so few own these things?  Dig any further and it only gets scarier!  "My bike sat at the dealer most of the summer because of an oil leak.  The dealer couldn't get the gasket from Italy".  You think it needs a new engine to bring sales up... really?  Never once have I had to convince someone that this engine really does the job, but I have had to try to convince folks that they're easy to work on, parts can be found, and don't worry about having to go to the dealer for everything.  That's the hardest sale to make and it takes a rare bird to bite, like us rare birds.
Just how I see it.
-Kevin  

[David Lee]

OK, Google is much better at this;

Italian to English translation


"These photos come directly from Monte Carlo, where the Piaggio Group has done
dealer meeting, and depicting two new Moto Guzzi on which is rumored for some time. V7
Scrambler is a surprise, often mentioned by fans and lovers of style
Vintage Mandello, but never confirmed by the house. The new California
generation, however, has long been the talk of the Guzzi, and only now shows
in the most modern interpretations.

Reflecting the style of the latter, we note from a few photos available
distinct shift reminiscent of the old models of Guzzi cruiser, reinterpreted in
modern salsa. A remake that seems to be well managed, from the massive front
through the unprecedented engine (probably some time in a brand new 3-valve)
up to the tail short and catchy, son of the design of the 850 T3
California Custom and the small number of the years 70/80.

The V7 is a new Scrambler, but he knows already seen. A new reservoir, a beautiful
manubrione and two high exhausts, simply can not bring a breath of fresh air
the ancient twin-cylinder 750cc, which in this version does not seem to change. The
look is still very feisty and very evocative, like all
small vintage called V7.

Photos evade inspection of the dealer meeting, coming directly from the soul of Moto Guzzi forum, the largest community of cross-Italian twins, who welcomed the new proposals, but with a hint of skepticism. California, the most mysterious and unexpected character of this picture, still do not know anything definitive about the production version of the list and the engine mount. From the photos we can only infer that this is an original version, with assembled heads an innovative design in high position, so much to go to cash in the design of the tank to drop.

We will try to unravel the mysteries that as soon as possible."

[guzziboy66]

I agree with kevdog.  Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR.  Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time.  My Guzzi is different.  They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996. 

Eric

There are lots of folks that look at these Guzzi's and think they're really cool bikes.  Once they do their research and find out the closest dealer is hundreds of miles away they stop looking.  If they can look past that and talk to a Guzzi owner who says "basically you'll learn to work on it yourself since it's got lots of nigglies and it's better to do the work yourself as well as order the parts yourself since it takes so long to get them through a dealer".  My God, is it any wonder so few own these things?  Dig any further and it only gets scarier!  "My bike sat at the dealer most of the summer because of an oil leak.  The dealer couldn't get the gasket from Italy".  You think it needs a new engine to bring sales up... really?  Never once have I had to convince someone that this engine really does the job, but I have had to try to convince folks that they're easy to work on, parts can be found, and don't worry about having to go to the dealer for everything.  That's the hardest sale to make and it takes a rare bird to bite, like us rare birds.
Just how I see it.
-Kevin  

 ;-T +1

[Murray]

I agree with kevdog.  Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR.  Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time.  My Guzzi is different.  They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996. 

Eric

Thats nice would they be still interested when they find out it can't drag a modern 600 in a straight line (it can't I've tried and mine isn't exactly stock). When the 1100 sport came out a 90hp sport bike was still in the market even the weight and size it was.  In the current market it is a dinosaur not only its HP but he speed it accelerates all that mass inside the motor compared to a modern bike even a twin it has all the response of a ships telegraph. They tried to improve engine response in the 1100 griso's and Breva's but lightening the internal mass it worked but the mid range the older bikes had went MIA. They did the same with the MGS who's acceleration is rat up a drain pipe stuff its great providing you keep it above 5000rpm I'm glad they didn't capitulate and put the two valve motor in the MGS and sold as a street bike like some people wanted it would of been a joke.

Piaggio is a successful business they won't prop up Guzzi out of sentimentality for ever, Guzzi needs to move on or it will be consigned to the history books.

[rocker59]

Nuovo California:  Long and Low.  Nice.  Twin shocks, but an odd looking left side of the swingarm.  I'm wondering if they've got a new casting based on the CARC, but one which has a left side...  Twin shocks for the purists!  Pipe appears for all the world to be a 2:1 left-side.  I'd sure like to see a right side photo.  I agree with others.  from the looks of it, the fuel may not be in the fuel tank, but lower and partially under the seat, ala Ducati Multistrada, maybe?  I like the seat.  The bike looks edgy and modern.  There is something about the styling that makes me think GL1000 instead of Ambo/Eldo, though, and that sorta bothers me...  Overall, I like it.  Can't wait to see more!

V7 Scrambler?  Yep.  Sweet!  Brang it!

[Murray]

I think the white one is less off a Cali replacement and more of the Ambo/Eldo retro the US market has been constantly whining for for who knows how long. Although the head on it looks pretty big I'm wondering if its packing the current fourvalve motor.

[rocker59]

Personally,  I think that there is more to the basic layout of the Guzzi motor than seemingly advantageous cooling.

Porsche and Subaru have long used opposed cylinders that go against the grain of common automotive drivetrains for reasons other than cooling.

The Guzzi layout is one of aesthetic appeal. It's a brand trademark.  Hell it's a convenient way to access spark plugs and valves.

To abandon it for a transverse crankshaft would pretty much instantly reduce it to nothing more than another redundant non-descript bike in the crowd.

So, I say there are legitimate reasons for them to produce a LC version of the longitudinal crank/transverse cylinder motor.

Agreed!

Valve adjustment access.  Heck, general top end removal access!

The ability to put something in the vee.  Frame tube, electrics, fuel, whatever.

If it's gonna be shaft, the crank may as well be longitudinal.

Etc, etc...

The "cylinders in the breeze for cooling" deal is just one of several reasons...

[rodekyll]

OK, Google is much better at this;

Italian to English translation


"These photos come directly from Monte Carlo, where the Piaggio Group has done
dealer meeting, and depicting two new Moto Guzzi on which is rumored for some time. V7
Scrambler is a surprise, often mentioned by fans and lovers of style
Vintage Mandello, but never confirmed by the house. The new California
generation, however, has long been the talk of the Guzzi, and only now shows
in the most modern interpretations.

Reflecting the style of the latter, we note from a few photos available
distinct shift reminiscent of the old models of Guzzi cruiser, reinterpreted in
modern salsa. A remake that seems to be well managed, from the massive front
through the unprecedented engine (probably some time in a brand new 3-valve)
up to the tail short and catchy, son of the design of the 850 T3
California Custom and the small number of the years 70/80.

The V7 is a new Scrambler, but he knows already seen. A new reservoir, a beautiful
manubrione and two high exhausts, simply can not bring a breath of fresh air
the ancient twin-cylinder 750cc, which in this version does not seem to change. The
look is still very feisty and very evocative, like all
small vintage called V7.

Photos evade inspection of the dealer meeting, coming directly from the soul of Moto Guzzi forum, the largest community of cross-Italian twins, who welcomed the new proposals, but with a hint of skepticism. California, the most mysterious and unexpected character of this picture, still do not know anything definitive about the production version of the list and the engine mount. From the photos we can only infer that this is an original version, with assembled heads an innovative design in high position, so much to go to cash in the design of the tank to drop.

We will try to unravel the mysteries that as soon as possible."

The babelfish seems more on-point and true to my reaction.  The hypebole and adjectives seem more  . . . .  trendy, especially in light of the vapid origins of the blog.  Sort of a middle-earth v hyperspace sort of surrealistic doggerel.  Just imagine smurfs riding alligators and it all comes together in an orgasmically metaphorical sort of nonseqiuterial diacom.

ymmv

[bad Chad]

I wonder if Greg Field could offer up anything on the Cali?

He mentioned a year or so back of seeing some pretty far along photos of the new Cali, that has not yet made it to market, is this similar to what you saw Greg?

[kevdog3019]

I agree with kevdog.  Kids (squids) huddle around my Sport 1100 and ignore my buddies GSXR.  Those kids see those bikes (GSXRs, Ninja's, CBRs, etc.) all the time.  My Guzzi is different.  They're shocked to find out that it is vintage 1996. 

Eric

Thats nice would they be still interested when they find out it can't drag a modern 600 in a straight line (it can't I've tried and mine isn't exactly stock). When the 1100 sport came out a 90hp sport bike was still in the market even the weight and size it was.  In the current market it is a dinosaur not only its HP but he speed it accelerates all that mass inside the motor compared to a modern bike even a twin it has all the response of a ships telegraph. They tried to improve engine response in the 1100 griso's and Breva's but lightening the internal mass it worked but the mid range the older bikes had went MIA. They did the same with the MGS who's acceleration is rat up a drain pipe stuff its great providing you keep it above 5000rpm I'm glad they didn't capitulate and put the two valve motor in the MGS and sold as a street bike like some people wanted it would of been a joke.

Piaggio is a successful business they won't prop up Guzzi out of sentimentality for ever, Guzzi needs to move on or it will be consigned to the history books.

If straight line speed is all you want, you have a myriad of bikes to choose from, but really only a few that compete for top honors.  There... I've narrowed your search to a few.  Now go ride them and see how fun they are as an everyday rider.  If you want Guzzi to compete with those few, it will be the end of Guzzi.  They won't do it better, they won't advertise as well, they won't have a dealer network that's as good, and their parts will be more expensive and take longer to get than those others.  Will you still buy one?  Guzzi is for the common man that enjoys a more visceral experience with his machine.  He looks at UJM's as nothing more than unusable power that's a waste to him, not to mention mundane bliss.  He cannot relate to having something so unrelated to his own abilities and limits and work ethic he puts in his everyday life.  The Guzzi is this common person!  We appreciate the hard work it puts in for us, how it does most of what we ask of it (even in those passionate moments), as well as the soulful charm of its operatic voice.  There's no other make to replace it for me, so I don't care about that speed you're talking about.  Harley's done ok without it also.  Race one of them lately??
-Kevin  

[bad Chad]

Greg said,

"I agree Danilo. Those new folks aren't going to by transverse-V engines that are water-cooled any more than they bought the air-cooled versions.

It's time to move on to—or at least add on—another engine architecture that has chance of bringing success. The transverse-V has been a sales loser for 40 years. The architecture is what keeps Guzzi stuck in the past, not the fact that it's air-cooled.

Guzzi has been bankrupt almost continually since the V7 engine's inception."



Hmmm, I might be wrong, but I don't think that's the point Danlio is trying to make.