*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Lannis]

If it sells well, it is. And I believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up. I believe that Piaggio / Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market than past efforts. Of course, you "experts" may know better than them "eye-talians".

Gary -

So how come you're not in this category of so-called "experts" too (which must be pronounced with a virtual sneer)?    :o

1) You believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up.
2) You believe that Piaggio/Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market.
3) Your credentials are identical to mine, and you're posting on the same board.

If I disagree with your opinion, why am I a so-called "Expert" putting down "eye-talians", and you're NOT one of these experts despite having a very explicit and strongly-stated opinion?  Eh?  Eh?   ???

Lannis

[Gary]

Gary -

So how come you're not in this category of so-called "experts" too (which must be pronounced with a virtual sneer)?    :o

1) You believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up.
2) You believe that Piaggio/Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market.
3) Your credentials are identical to mine, and you're posting on the same board.

If I disagree with your opinion, why am I a so-called "Expert" putting down "eye-talians", and you're NOT one of these experts despite having a very explicit and strongly-stated opinion?  Eh?  Eh?   ???

Lannis

Wow, I have been roundly chastised. You are correct, I did proffer an opinion. I do believe that it will sell very well. That is an opinion. I do believe that P / MG are doing a much better job assessing the market. That's not an opinion. MG's new models have met with good success.

I didn't intend for my opinion to be received as "explicit and strongly stated", but it is hard to add nuances that occur when speaking to such brief written responses. My response was more of the "tongue in cheek" variety. My main point, and it really had nothing to do with your post, was the parallel between Porsche, a marque with a wildly enthusiast following, and MG, with a similarly enthusiastic following.

Nothing personal intended.

[Lannis]

Wow, I have been roundly chastised. You are correct, I did proffer an opinion. I do believe that it will sell very well. That is an opinion. I do believe that P / MG are doing a much better job assessing the market. That's not an opinion. MG's new models have met with good success.

I didn't intend for my opinion to be received as "explicit and strongly stated", but it is hard to add nuances that occur when speaking to such brief written responses. My response was more of the "tongue in cheek" variety. My main point, and it really had nothing to do with your post, was the parallel between Porsche, a marque with a wildly enthusiast following, and MG, with a similarly enthusiastic following.

Nothing personal intended.

Well, I don't know about "roundly", but I appreciate the explanation.   I think the tone of "eye-talians" was what got my african up, as if I didn't believe those dummies could come up with a good plan just because they're Italian.   I wouldn't be trusting my life to their bikes every day if I didn't think they had something on the ball.

The good thing about the differing opinions here is that it's not like "Who would have won in a match between Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali?" which will never have an answer.   We'll KNOW the answer to this one in a few years ... and these messages last a loooong time ....  ;-T :D

Lannis

[Joliet Jim]

Ali would have kicked his ass. 

[rboe]

No way!   :beat_horse

[rboe]

Sorry, just felt like trolling for a second. :)

[Dogwalker]

In motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Qzzp6Pc&feature=player_embedded#

[sbaker]

In motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Qzzp6Pc&feature=player_embedded#

Very cool to have a "Tail of the Dragon" right next to the assembly plant!

[youcanrunnaked]

In motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Qzzp6Pc&feature=player_embedded#

Nice find!

Here are the two best still screen shots I could get from the video of the bike being ridden:

[Sheepdog]

I am willing to believe Miguel Galuzzi when he said he understands what Moto Guzzi is all about.  Assuming that's true, the new California will go, stop, and turn as a Guzzi should.  Therefore, I do not believe that the California 1400 will be longer than any Victory or weigh more than a Road King.  IMO, that's just crazy talk.

My prediction is that the new California 1400 will be marginally longer, lower, and heavier than the California Vintage, while being significantly more powerful AND better handling.

As a point of reference, here are the specifications for the CalVin:
 
Frame: Detachable tubular duplex cradle in special high-strength steel
Wheelbase: 61.4” (1,560 mm)
Trail: 4.5” (116 mm)
Rake: 29 °
Front suspension: Marzocchi hydraulic telescopic fork, Ø 45 mm, adjustable separately
Front wheel travel: 5.5” (140 mm)
Rear suspension: swing arm with 2 hydraulic shock absorbers, preload adjustable
Rear wheel travel: 3.8” (96 mm)
Braking system: Integral braking system, with proportioning and delay valve
Front brake: double Brembo Serie Oro stainless steel floating disc, Ø 320 mm, 4 piston calipers
Rear brake: single Brembo stainless steel floating disc, Ø 282 mm, 2 piston calipers
Wheels: Behr spoked steel rims
Front rim: 2.50” x 18”
Rear rim: 3.50” x 17”
Front tyre: 110/90 VB18"
Rear tyre: 140/70 VB17"
Length: 93.7” (2,380 mm)
Width: 32.1” (815 mm)
Height: 54.7” (1,390 mm)
Seat height: 30.7” (780 mm)
Ground clearance: 7.5” (190 mm)
Handlebar height: 41.3” (1,050 mm)
Front footboard height: 12.8” (326 mm)
Rear footboard height: 15.1” (385 mm)
Dry weight: 580 lbs (263 kg)
Fuel tank capacity: 5 gallons (19 liters)
Reserve: 1 gallon (4 liters)


So, my predictions for the California 1400 in key areas are as follows:

Wheelbase:  63.4"

Seat Height: 29"

Weight (dry/wet): 600 / 640 lbs.

Power (measured at the crank):  115 bhp @ 6900 rpm and maximum torque of 120 Nm @ 5800

According to the Cycle World specs from a 2008 "Bagger" feature, the wet weight of a Vintage is 629 lbs.  This means that Guzzi was probably exaggerating how light this bike is by 15 lbs, or so.  Its still lighter than the competition, though.  I'm guessing the 1400 will be also...

[JohninVT`]

I think it's pretty cool looking.  I do wonder if the increase in engine size is going to make for baked shins in town.  I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded?  Kind of like Triumph's parallel twins; the 750's of the 70's are what everyone remembers but for my money, the 500 was the perfect size for that engine and it's best iteration in many ways IMHO. 

The bike does look pretty good going down the road, judging by that brief video.  I think everyone is going to be shocked by the MSRP.  I'd be willing to bet it's 20k. 

[kirb]

I think everyone is going to be shocked by the MSRP.  I'd be willing to bet it's 20k. 

Griso lowered to $12.5k
Stelvio a bargin at $16k

I'll put the base model at around $17-18k

[Lannis]

I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded?  Kind of like Triumph's parallel twins; the 750's of the 70's are what everyone remembers but for my money, the 500 was the perfect size for that engine and it's best iteration in many ways IMHO. 
 

If you take (waste?) the time to go through all 2000+ postings on this subject, you'll find my very similar assessment using the BMW airhead and Norton twin as precedent, and speculating on the viability of taking an engine configuration that worked at 700 cc going to 1400c cc ....

... which led to a bit of a savaging for (A) daring to question the Designers and (B) Implying that there Any Such Thing as "Too Big" and (C) Conspiring to Stifle New Things at The Company.

I still think it's going to be a techical loser and they'll wish they hadn't done it ....

Lannis

[Chicago Mark]

Lannis,

     By that same logic, then the current 1200 8v Stelvio, Griso, Breva Sport and Norge all have a 700cc engine simply bored out to a 1200cc. That's absolutely not true. Yes, they're both Moto Guzzi 90 degree V-Twins but they're very different engines. So many on this forum worried the current 1200 8v engine was going beyond the original design parameters. I believe the current 1200 8v or this 1400 8v have a lot more design changes than simply boring out the original design. Similar in how different the Harley-Davidson Knucklehead engine is to their current 103.   
     Regarding this video, pretty hard to really tell much with my aging eyes. It's hard to actually see much. Even stopping the video shows poor resolution.

YMMV,

Mark

[Kev m]

Mark, you're likely wasting your breath. Pete already documented that the 8V big blocks have little or nothing in common with the 2V motors other than obvious cylinder layout. Lannis refuses to admit that the fact of the redesign basically blows his simile out of the water. But we're rehashing...

[Lannis]

Mark, you're likely wasting your breath. Pete already documented that the 8V big blocks have little or nothing in common with the 2V motors other than obvious cylinder layout. Lannis refuses to admit that the fact of the redesign basically blows his simile out of the water. But we're rehashing...

Cylinder layout is enough for me.   There's no universal physical law that says that what works for one capacity will work as successfully when the power and capacity is doubled.   All I'm saying is that Guzzi is not creating a 1400cc bike because they think it's a great application of their design.   They're doing it because everyone else is doing it.

And to rehash again ... Time will tell.   This thread will still be available in 3 or 4 years! 

Lannis

[bad Chad]

"They're doing it because everyone else is doing it."

 ??? ??? ???

[Kev m]

Cylinder layout is enough for me.   There's no universal physical law that says that what works for one capacity will work as successfully when the power and capacity is doubled.   All I'm saying is that Guzzi is not creating a 1400cc bike because they think it's a great application of their design.   They're doing it because everyone else is doing it.

And to rehash again ... Time will tell.   This thread will still be available in 3 or 4 years! 

Lannis

But the capacity hasn't been doubled.for all practical purposes, since the motor was a new design as a 1200cc 8V, this only represents an increase of 200cc. And but so much because everyone is doing it, but because everyone is BUYING it.

[Lannis]

"They're doing it because everyone else is doing it."

 ??? ??? ???

Making massive, oversize, overweight motorcycles.

Remember, I come from a riding generation that considered a 350 or 450 a standard bike, and a 650 or 750 a big bike .... it probably influences my opinion.    I'll ride my Stelvio till the wheels fall off, but I'll never buy another bike over 500 wet pounds again .....

Lannis

[Chicago Mark]

If Piaggio/Moto Guzzi wanted to follow what "everyone else" is doing, they'd be releasing a 1700cc or so. Every major brand has out done a 1700 by a decent margin anyway. But the best selling cruisers and tourers on the market are from Harley-Davidson. Their current 'standard' V-Twin is a 103cu.in (1687cc). So, if Piaggio/Moto Guzzi is putting out a middleweight 1400cc simply "because everyone else" is, they missed the mark before it ever left the design studio.

I trust they're putting out this middleweight 1400cc for at least a couple of reasons.
1. It should have more Hp and Torque than most the newer 1300's from Japan with a good power to weight ratio.
2. Going much bigger is simply not in the European mindset with their license tiers and taxes paid by the engine size. For 90% of the roads and highway systems in Europe a 750cc is plenty. For our 1000's of miles of straight and relatively flat highways, not so much.

Personally I beleive it will compare well against most other 1300cc to 1900cc cruisers and weekend tourers. Maybe they also have a full dress option they're working on as well for the touring crowd. With hard bags, an optional trunk and a couple of windshield options. If it has torque aplenty and enough Hp to entertain the masses, it should do well. That's if Piaggio can correctly time its release for the American market with enough marketing to have people scanning their website for a dealer.

Time will tell,

Mark

[LowRyter]

I think it's pretty cool looking.  I do wonder if the increase in engine size is going to make for baked shins in town.  I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded?  Kind of like Triumph's parallel twins; the 750's of the 70's are what everyone remembers but for my money, the 500 was the perfect size for that engine and it's best iteration in many ways IMHO. 

The bike does look pretty good going down the road, judging by that brief video.  I think everyone is going to be shocked by the MSRP.  I'd be willing to bet it's 20k. 

I don't what the limitation for size is regarding physical dimensions of the crankcases, but a 90 degree V Twin is inherently balanced whereas the parallel twin runs into the shakes.

[guzziks]

Not over 500 wet, so what will you get?  Especially if you want a comfrotable touring, sport touring or dual purpose type bike.  

[Chicago Mark]

Remember, I come from a riding generation that considered a 350 or 450 a standard bike, and a 650 or 750 a big bike .... it probably influences my opinion.    I'll ride my Stelvio till the wheels fall off, but I'll never buy another bike over 500 wet pounds again .....

Lannis
[/quote]

That (your) generation simply didn't have the super highways and elevated speeds we have today. This last weekend my wife and I were returning to Chicago from Indiana via IN-49 North to US-90/94. The posted speed limit is 70mph in Indiana. We were 2-up on the Valkyrie going 80-90mph and getting passed by 70% of the vehicles on the highway. Not the big heavy American V8 sleds from generations gone by. We were getting getting passed by all types of vehicles (big cars/small cars/trucks/semis). We crossed into IL and the speed limit went down to 55mph. No change in the traffic speed or pattern at all. In a work zone with a 45mph posted speed limit, again, no change to the speed and flow of the traffic. Sorry, but most 750 standards, cruisers and tourers simply don't have the power to be much more than a speed bump on most of todays multi lane highways. Not so for the sport bikes for sure.

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy those elevated speeds and that traffic flow. But I wouldn't take most 350's, 450's, 600's and 750's anywhere near the highway and tollway systems around here.

All the best,

Mark

[youcanrunnaked]

Making massive, oversize, overweight motorcycles.

Lannis

Are you talking about the Cali 1400?  Did you watch the video (or even look at the screen shots)?  The bike doesn't look massive to me.  In fact, for a contemporary cruiser, it looks like it will be at the small end of the scale.

[Lannis]

Are you talking about the Cali 1400?  Did you watch the video (or even look at the screen shots)?  The bike doesn't look massive to me.  In fact, for a contemporary cruiser, it looks like it will be at the small end of the scale.

What does MY looking at the screen shots have to do with how massive the bike looks to YOU?   ???   :)

Contemporary?   That's the issue ....

Lannis

[Lannis]

Remember, I come from a riding generation that considered a 350 or 450 a standard bike, and a 650 or 750 a big bike .... it probably influences my opinion.    I'll ride my Stelvio till the wheels fall off, but I'll never buy another bike over 500 wet pounds again .....

Lannis


That (your) generation simply didn't have the super highways and elevated speeds we have today.

Mark

What you mean "We", paleface?   :D

I've probably got 450,000 miles on bikes (yes, I know, Goose - you have more, we've been here before) and have somehow managed to spend ZERO time two-up at 90 MPH on a crowded expressway.    That's a good way to die, doing much of that; a piece of muffler, a swerving car, a gator, a blown tire, and you're dead, quick.   I can go anywhere I want any time I want and not have to do that.

I expect that Fay and I will spend hundreds of thousands of more miles over the next however many years (God willing and the creeks don't rise), and see large amounts of the USA and Europe, without going 90 MPH two-up on a crowded freeway, requiring a 700 pound 130 HP bike with 100 lb-ft of torque.    The Stelvio would EASILY do that if I wanted to, anyhow ....  without chasing Rocket IIIs to 2300 cc just because people want to buy "bigger" ...

Lannis

[bad Chad]

OH, Lannis, you just don't know when to pull back and let it ride.   

I agree with you, on your obvious assertion that time will tell, it always does.   Lets revisit this six months after the 1400 debuts in the US market and see how it is doing.

[Lannis]

OH, Lannis, you just don't know when to pull back and let it ride.   

I agree with you, on your obvious assertion that time will tell, it always does.   Lets revisit this six months after the 1400 debuts in the US market and see how it is doing.

How come I'M the one taking the lick for not "knowing when to let it ride"?   There's 6 other people in the last 10 or so posts have the same problem, looks like to me .... and two of them are YOU!  :D   :D

But that's an old, played story .... Gettin' past my bedtime anyhow; I'm taking my little bitty 600cc pistons and turning in ...  ;-T

Lannis

[bad Chad]

Two of them are me?   You lost me, but I agree, it's getting late, time to dream of 400Lb back road burners!

[youcanrunnaked]

What does MY looking at the screen shots have to do with how massive the bike looks to YOU?   ???   :)
Lannis

Sorry if that was less than clear.  Here's what I mean:

Unless the test rider is an eight-foot-tall giant,

this is NOT a "massive" bike.