*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[racergary]

The author of the article is British and their gallons are larger than the US but would hope he converted his numbers to the US gallon but since he was riding in France and they use the liter he had do some converting anyway.

I didn't see where he used the on board computer to get his mileage or as I would do used a pencil when re fueling.

Since the 1400 comes with three different fueling maps I wonder if each map would give a different MPG rating?

What errors did people read in the article which I thought overall was good and lengthy.I don't put a whole lot of faith in reading a testers comments on a bike they rode if I did I would never have bought my first Guzzi and that goes double for those clowns I hung around with in the early 70's

The six speed box on the 1400 is all new to this model?  

[rocker59]

Also, IIRC last I saw Harley alone was 50%   of the US street bike market, Honda being next closest, but less than 25%.

I understood the numbers as:

HD with 50% of the USA cruiser market.

The big cruiser market is about 50% of the USA motorcycle market.

Honda and HD each vary between 25% and 28% of the USA streetbike market.


 

[youcanrunnaked]

^^^^  IIRC, this is correct.  However, I think your earlier point is both accurate and more significant.  H-D sells around 250,000 bikes per year (down from a pre-recession high of around 300,000); if the nuovo California snags 1% of those customers -- it's a home run for Moto Guzzi.

[Kev m]

Nope, I think you're getting confused by monikers like "big cruiser".

The 50%   was all registered street bikes.

The 25/28 MIGHT be accurate if you include non street (dirt/ATV).

I specifically remember some data that a bud shared from Triumph (he was a a Triumph dealer at the time). The data was from new bike registrations and Harley was (to my surprise at the time) clearly equal to all others added together, with Honda being closest, but still a fraction.

[rocker59]

Nope, I think you're getting confused by monikers like "big cruiser".

The 50%   was all registered street bikes.

The 25/28 MIGHT be accurate if you include non street (dirt/ATV).

I specifically remember some data that a bud shared from Triumph (he was a a Triumph dealer at the time). The data was from new bike registrations and Harley was (to my surprise at the time) clearly equal to all others added together, with Honda being closest, but still a fraction.

Harley claims to own the over 651cc market, and they do.

The streetbike market usually includes everything over 50cc.  There are a lot of motorcycles sold in the USA in the 250cc to 650cc range.

If you add dirtbikes, HD moves way down the list.  Honda builds millions of vehicles (18M) when you include offroad and under 50cc.

HD trades places with Honda for streetbikes (over 50cc) in the USA.  Like I mentioned, each owning about 25% +/-.

Anyway, here are some links I quickly searched up.  Just like with any other statistics, I'm sure they can be made to suit any side of an argument...   And, for the life of me, I can't find the old links showing Honda 25% and HD 28%...  Maybe my memory is failing me ?!?!?!

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/honda-q1-2012-sales/
"Harley is holding on to 56% of the $4 billion market for heavyweight motorcycles, those with displacements higher than 650 cubic centimeters."

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/09/bullshit-harley%E2%80%99s-young-adult-market-share-and-other-damned-lies/
"The key in all this is the “heavyweight” category, an outdated classification from the MIC that dates from the 1970s when a 650cc Bonneville was a big, fast motorcycle. “Heavyweight” motorcycles start at 651cc, which means all 600cc sportsbikes, 650cc twins like the SV650 and Ninja 650 and, critically, popular learner fodder like the Kawasaki Ninja 250 are excluded from that class."

http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/industry-news/2011/01/25/harley-davidson-increases-u-s-market-share
"The Motor Company stated that U.S. 651+cc sales were down 14.6% for the year, while Harley sales were down only 11.7% for the year. Their U.S. market share in that segment increased to 54.9% from 53.3% a year earlier and 45.4% in 2008."

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/583/9085/Motorcycle-Article/Honda-Makes-18-Million-Motorcycles-in-2010.aspx

[Kev m]

Rocker - As far as I can see none of your links contradict what I said.

I'm well aware that what stats HARLEY reports are "651cc and larger" or "super-heavyweight" or whatever the hell they call it. But I SPECIFICALLY SAID "registered on-road" bikes. And look closer at some of your sources and you'll see that the majority of the UNDER 650cc are NOT registered on-road bikes these days (at least from the stats). They're dirt bikes.

For instance - your own source (and I read this article last year)

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/09/bullshit-harley%E2%80%99s-young-adult-market-share-and-other-damned-lies/
"The key in all this is the “heavyweight” category, an outdated classification from the MIC that dates from the 1970s when a 650cc Bonneville was a big, fast motorcycle. “Heavyweight” motorcycles start at 651cc, which means all 600cc sportsbikes, 650cc twins like the SV650 and Ninja 650 and, critically, popular learner fodder like the Kawasaki Ninja 250 are excluded from that class."

You missed the following from the same source:

Our analyst provides some context: “H-D accounts for over 60% of the on-road market, all displacements.  Even if only 10% of those Hogs are being bought by the under 35′s, that’s about 20,000 bikes, more than any single other manufacturer in the US could claim… on road.  What that statistic says more than anything, is that H-D has US market saturation, making any kind of statistical claim possible, depending on how you chose to categorize the data.”

and

According to WebBikeWorld, 520,502 motorcycles of all kinds were sold in the US in 2009, down from a high of nearly 1.1 million in 2005. Harley says it shipped 223,023 motorcycles during 2009, representing about 43 percent of total sales (this total includes off-road).

So you see, as I said - 50% or more for ALL ON ROAD REGISTERED IN THE US - but that number drops significantly if you include OFF-ROAD.

Again, my data, and maybe the thread is still here, showed a representative snapshot of the US (this was a specific territory in the mid-west of my buddy's specific territory, but his data suggested it was represantitve of the US in general). It had total motorcycle registrations by brand for the territory - might have been a one month time-frame, I forget. Anyway Harley WAS CLEARLY 50% of total with no one other manufacturer getting anywhere near.

Go to a Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, or Yamaha dealership and see what they're selling. Dont' get me wrong, they obviously sell sportbikes, and some cruisers, and some standards/tourers, but MORE AND MORE square footage is devoted to dirt bikes and ATVs for a reason.

Hell, look at how few bikes Kawasaki and Suzuki imported into the US the past few years, selling leftovers.

Look at the recent Suzuki of America Ch 11/reorganization. They're just not selling the volume they need.

I forget the exact monthly numbers I'm talking about but Harley was 100 and something in that territory and I believe BMW was 9.

Here's another example which that agrees with that:

In the release, BMW didn’t make it clear whether that improvement was in the US or globally. In 2009, BMW sold 87,306 bikes globally and 9,168 bikes in the US.

[rocker59]

Kev:

for the life of me, I can't find the old links showing Honda 25% and HD 28%...  Maybe my memory is failing me ?!?!?!

[Kev m]

OOOOPs, sorry, trying to move data to new laptop, watch a 1-year old, and read the BB is obviously spreading myself way too thin.  :BEER:

Like I said, I SUSPECT those stats include dirt bikes and scooters or something like that or maybe it's worldwide (but then Harley should be MUCH lower). I dunno man, maybe I can't think of a way to make those 25 and 28 numbers work???  ???

[rocker59]

As was mentioned earlier, all Guzzi has to do is grab a tiny fraction piece of the large HD and metric pie and they'll have a success with the Cal 14.

I think they will have it.   ;-T

[Kev m]

As was mentioned earlier, all Guzzi has to do is grab a tiny fraction piece of the large HD and metric pie and they'll have a success with the Cal 14.

I think they will have it.   ;-T

 ;-T ;-T ;-T

[bad Chad]

Come on guys, one of you has to have the bigger dink! :D :D

[Kev m]

Come on guys, one of you has to have the bigger dink! :D :D

Why is it that when we're hashing out the proper data someone has to think it's about ego?

I really don't think Rocker is in any way insecure.

[bpreynolds]

As was mentioned earlier, all Guzzi has to do is grab a tiny fraction piece of the large HD and metric pie and they'll have a success with the Cal 14.

I think they will have it.   ;-T

In theory, and perhaps in practice now with this 1400, this is correct.  Grab a small market share of the big boy's pie.  Seems to be working quite well when we look in areas like adventure bikes and such where everyone has hopped into the game, hoping to get a part of the GS' major sales.  And with Guzzi, it seems like this has seemingly been the prevailing logic for a while now; that is, get a few of the HD buyers to cross over.  And with this new 1400 maybe they will now achieve it.  I sure hope so, but it does make me wonder sometimes.  Back in Guzzi's big day in the States, was it because they were creating bikes similar but different from HD?  Was it because they had a cool police bike contract?  Or was it just chic at the time to ride Italian?  I'm honestly asking?  Why did Guzzi have such success back in the day versus today's market.  Was it because the product then was really more comparable to the bikes of the time?  If so, then I probably think this new 1400 will see some success since it more closely resembles other big cruisers that are selling well out there.  But again, I wasn't around back then in Guzzi's heyday and I wonder if there's anything to learn from that time that applies now at all?

[rboe]

Police contracts; created visiability so many folks wanted them. Would not be a bad idea to get California to buy Guzzi again.

[rocker59]

Guzzi's heyday was in the early '70s when they had the LAPD and CHP contracts.

The Eldo/Ambo were great alternatives to 'glides.

Mandelo was pumping out 50,000 bikes per year in like 1972  (though that was short-lived).

The problem today is that the contracts are VERY competitive and have service contracts and buy back guarantees that are expensive for the manufacturers.

HD pretty much has the market locked up.  BMW has made some inroads.

It's great advertising, but very expensive for a small builder like Guzzi to get into the game.

[youcanrunnaked]

I have heard, but have not independently confirmed, that H-D leases the police Road King to law enforcement agencies for $1.00 per year.  If that's the case, then between that and the "buy American" image, it would be very difficult for Moto Guzzi, or any other motorcycle manufacturer, to make significant inroads on that market.

IIRC, in addition to BMW offering a version of the R1200R to law enforcement, Honda has a police ST1300 and Kawasaki has a police Concours 1400.  I don't believe that any of these bikes are big sellers.

I'm not saying that Guzzi shouldn't try to re-establish their presence in the law enforcement market.  Certainly, California agencies would be the logical place to start.  However, I think the broader point is that Harley-Davidson are the masters at marketing "heavyweight" cruisers.  In trying to sell the nuovo California, Moto Guzzi shouldn't necessarily take a page out of Harley's book; they should copy the whole thing!  (Okay, maybe not the chapter on dressing like a gay pirate....)

[Moto]

I have heard, but have not independently confirmed, that H-D leases the police Road King to law enforcement agencies for $1.00 per year. 

I spoke to a motor officer recently who told me that program has been rolled back. Our village now buys its Harleys instead of leasing them.

[youcanrunnaked]

I'd like to see what an LAPD or CHP version of the nuovo California would look like.  Maybe someone here with some photoshop skills would like to take a crack at it?

[Arizona Wayne]

I'd like to see what an LAPD or CHP version of the nuovo California would look like.  Maybe someone here with some photoshop skills would like to take a crack at it?

Some euro. countries use Guzzis for police bikes and once in awhile we get a pic of what they look like.

Back in the `90's I talked to a CHP officer when they were using HDs.  He told me if the public knew their HDs only went up to 98 mph they would be in trouble.  Hence they now ride BMWs.  I don't see a Cali. 1400 being won over a BMW oilhead.   :-X

[VA Sean]

wow... almost 70 pages... I'm in!

ohh - and I still like the CalVin better than this pig.

[Kev m]

wow... almost 70 pages... I'm in!

ohh - and I still like the CalVin better than this pig.

REALLY?

There's a lot to like about the Cal-Vin - but I got most of it out of my system when I sold the Jackal.

Me - I'd take the new Cal 1400 over a Cal-Vin tomorrow.

[bpreynolds]

REALLY?

There's a lot to like about the Cal-Vin - but I got most of it out of my system when I sold the Jackal.

Me - I'd take the new Cal 1400 over a Cal-Vin tomorrow.

Kev, how can you say that without having ridden the new bike?  Were you just so certain the Jackal didn't suite you well, or maybe you are just talkin looks?

[rocker59]

how can you say that without having ridden the new bike?  

Based on the reported power/torque of the new 1400 mill, I'd say for loaded 2-up touring, the new bike will walk away from the old one.

One of my bigger complaints I could lodge against my former Bassa was that it simply didn't have enough power when riding 2-up.

The Cal 14 seems to have addressed this in a big way.  Max torque at 2750 for the new bike vs. max torque at nearly twice that rpm for the Cal Vin.

Probably the biggest complaint for me on these types of bikes is the seating position.  Feet forward and knees high really hurt on long rides.  I'd much rather ride the more standard V7 Classic, or my Nero Corsa.

[youcanrunnaked]

Well, the Nuovo California is supposed to be an improvement over the Cal Vin.  Hopefully, it is everything people like about the Cal Vin, only more of it, plus cures for what people don't like about the Cal Vin.

From the looks of it and the early ride reports, it seems that Guzzi has nailed it.  At least, nobody is talking major misfire.  IMO, the only things the Cal Vin has over the California 1400 are 100 lbs less weight and a lower price.  While the increase in weight and cost are regrettable, all of that "new and improved" has to come at a price.

Which reminds me -- Any word on US prices?

[bpreynolds]

Well in terms of my Jackal that difference in weight seems to be rather remarkable at closer to 200lbs.  Look, it appears to be a great bike and many improvements that needed to happen.  It's not for me with that kind of weight, certainly less efficient, I do worry it will diminish the overall everyday use of the bike that I find in my current Jackal.  Lots of Rocket 3 guys have told me how their bike is fun and relatively nimble for its size but maybe not the best bike in the garage for all around everyday use.  Right now, for having only one bike, I'd take the Jackal.  I'm sure I'm relatively alone in that preference and I'm okay with that.

[LowRyter]

Based on the reported power/torque of the new 1400 mill, I'd say for loaded 2-up touring, the new bike will walk away from the old one.

One of my bigger complaints I could lodge against my former Bassa was that it simply didn't have enough power when riding 2-up.

The Cal 14 seems to have addressed this in a big way.  Max torque at 2750 for the new bike vs. max torque at nearly twice that rpm for the Cal Vin.

Probably the biggest complaint for me on these types of bikes is the seating position.  Feet forward and knees high really hurt on long rides.  I'd much rather ride the more standard V7 Classic, or my Nero Corsa.

I've got to disagree with you.  The Cali doesn't have low end power like a Harley but the top end is pretty good.  Keep the revs up over 4k, keep it 4th until 80.  I've done an indicated 105 with 2 up and the Mrs dozin' in the back seat. 

[rocker59]

I've got to disagree with you.  The Cali doesn't have low end power like a Harley but the top end is pretty good.  Keep the revs up over 4k, keep it 4th until 80.  I've done an indicated 105 with 2 up and the Mrs dozin' in the back seat. 

For Marcia and me, same load/same road, the V11 Nero Corsa is more comfortable and much more powerful than the Bassa was.

After watching all the Californias at the campouts, my desire to have one was reignited, so I got the Bassa from JAZZ in Chicago.

Pulling the trailer and hauling Marcia, the Bassa just couldn't cover the miles comfortably like the Nero Corsa can.

Yes, I know we're members of a fringe minority...   :BEER:

[Kev m]

Kev, how can you say that without having ridden the new bike?  Were you just so certain the Jackal didn't suite you well, or maybe you are just talkin looks?

Jackal suited me fine, except for all the repairs and all the things I didn't like about it (like internal oil filter for example).

That said there has been sufficient analysis of the handling that tells me this would work out for me.

[LowRyter]

R59-  Cali doesn't have the power of a V11 LeMans.  I think it would leave a (stock) RK from 30-100 mph and anywhere there is a corner.  

IMHO

Perhaps that's not a fair comparison to the RK which would probably be more comfy on the interstate and can be "built" with a lot of power.

[Kev m]

Well in terms of my Jackal that difference in weight seems to be rather remarkable at closer to 200lbs.  Look, it appears to be a great bike and many improvements that needed to happen.  It's not for me with that kind of weight, certainly less efficient, I do worry it will diminish the overall everyday use of the bike that I find in my current Jackal.  Lots of Rocket 3 guys have told me how their bike is fun and relatively nimble for its size but maybe not the best bike in the garage for all around everyday use.  Right now, for having only one bike, I'd take the Jackal.  I'm sure I'm relatively alone in that preference and I'm okay with that

Been there, done that, moved on.

That said the wet weight on a Jackal is probably around 600 (especially accessorized), so the difference is probably 150, but feels like less due to center of gravity.

And though I'm enjoying smaller bikes a lot, I never had a problem around town with a Road King.