To MGNOC, or not to MGNOC, the threadfest

[rodekyll]

I don't have an official copy of the settlement agreement, but the minutes of the last business meeting said something about not using the "f*********" word any more when referring to that subject.   So I'm not! .....  ;D

Lanns

Your cognitive skills are more developed than I thought.  A little work on the concept of 'context' and we'll have your reading understanding level up to 3rd grade.

But what about the rest of it?  You said that there are so many group three haters in this discussion that you've run out of imaginary awards.  Nothing to show us that these haters exist anywhere but in your head?

[redrider90]

^^^  Wow.  You have completely missed my point.  I cannot state it any clearer.  Sad.

Okay, one last try:  If it's "nobody's business" how Frank operates the MGNOC, the it's NOT A CLUB.

You mean that is your only point? MGNOC is not a club? Well why didn't you say so.
I wasted all  my time and all those words only to find we were having a discussion about semantics. Crap I bet I have 1 or 2 more people who have now blocked cause they either hate Frank or think I am anal.  
BTW WIKI says MGNOC is a club.

From WIKI:
Club
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the type of organization of formal or informal membership. For other uses, see Club (disambiguation). A club is an association of two or more people united by a common interest or goal. A service club, for example, exists for voluntary or charitable activities; there are clubs devoted to hobbies and sports, social activities clubs, political and religious clubs, and so forth.

[redrider90]

Your cognitive skills are more developed than I thought.  A little work on the concept of 'context' and we'll have your reading understanding level up to 3rd grade.

But what about the rest of it?  You said that there are so many group three haters in this discussion that you've run out of imaginary awards.  Nothing to show us that these haters exist anywhere but in your head?

Gotta love it RK.  ;-T
I am still trying to find the post about various groups of haters. I had no idea there are 3 groups of haters.  :D :D
You would think this is the middle of winter and everybody is at each others throats cause they haven't had their bikes fired up in months and they are all stir crazy.

[rocker59]

Probably be a better discussion for the MGNOC facebook page for sure.  According to a post there they have 2,611 members and I believe you have to join the MGNOC to be one.

I don't think so.

I am a member of the MGNOC Facebook "group", but I haven't been a member of MGNOC for years.

Something tells me the membership of the MGNOC Facebook page has little correlation to the membership of MGNOC proper.

I'm also a member of Moto Guzzi World Club "group" on Facebook, but am not a member of that club either.

[LowRyter]

I think Naked hits the nail on head.  It's really not a "club" when when one guy owns it.

That might not change anything or how anyone feels.  But it might shape some attitudes and assumptions where people are coming from when they talk about it.

No disrespect to anyone, MGNOC or otherwise here.  But Naked makes a fair point.

[Chuck in Indiana]

<sigh> The world will probably keep on turning. Does all this really matter in the big scheme of things?  ;D

[Joliet Jim]

<sigh> The world will probably keep on turning. Does all this really matter in the big scheme of things?  ;D

Wow that is so profound, I might start calling you yoda  ;D

[LowRyter]

<sigh> The world will probably keep on turning. Does all this really matter in the big scheme of things?  ;D

it must matter to anyone that comments on this thread?

<shrug?

[atavar]

there are many "clubs" that are privately owned for profit enterprises.  Look at any of your fitness "clubs" for an example. (or Sam's "Club", HomeShopping "Club" et.al.). Club just defines the membership strategy, it has nothing to do with whether it is for profit or not.
I really don't understand the angst here, if you like MGNOC join MGNOC, if not, don't.  Why the religious furor on both sides? 

[redrider90]

there are many "clubs" that are privately owned for profit enterprises.  Look at any of your fitness "clubs" for an example. (or Sam's "Club", HomeShopping "Club" et.al.). Club just defines the membership strategy, it has nothing to do with whether it is for profit or not.
I really don't understand the angst here, if you like MGNOC join MGNOC, if not, don't.  Why the religious furor on both sides? 

there are many "clubs" that are privately owned for profit enterprises.  Look at any of your fitness "clubs" for an example. (or Sam's "Club", HomeShopping "Club" et.al.). Club just defines the membership strategy, it has nothing to do with whether it is for profit or not.
I really don't understand the angst here, if you like MGNOC join MGNOC, if not, don't.  Why the religious furor on both sides? 

This is not about religious furor.  This is not about MGNOC. This is about the English language. English linguistics defines the many manifestations of the meaning of "Club". Anybody who insists that MGNOC is not a club really needs to read the dictionary.  :pop
One thing all clubs have in common, the one universal factor that makes them alike it that they have  "members" who belong because of a common unifying theme: something that brings them all together. Nowhere in the many variations of the definition of "club" does it say that a club cannot have a single person who owns it and runs it like Frank Wedge. Tennis clubs and golf clubs may have a group of members who oversea its organization and make sure the members follow the rules which often includes fees.  I am not sure Frank has any rules except that you pay a fee to belong to the "club". How does one belong to MGNOC if they do not pay a fee? They do not belong if they do not pay.  After all the rules state you pay or you are not a member. Read you computer dictionary; its right there in plain simple English. Go online and it's there in plain simple language. There are multiple ways for a club to be organized including various mechanisms for ownership. It can be private; it can be nonprofit. It can have fees, it can be free. So Frank Wedge's Club is a club and that he has hundreds of members who pay to belong to the club proves it. So Naked can say whatever he wants but he cannot change to  linguistics and make up his own definition of "club". That is left to scholars not motorcycle enthusiasts.
As they say in politics a person is entitled to his own beliefs but one is not entitled to his own facts.

[youcanrunnaked]

I agree that the MGNOC is a club in the same way that Sam's Club is a club.

Come to think of it, I belong to at least one club:



The Flanigan's Lunch Club is a club: a group of people bound together by their mutual interest in... lunch.  Only six more to go, and I get a free lunch.

If you are relying on Wikipedia or Webster's to counter my arguments, or are citing examples like a fitness club or Sam's Club (or the ABC Super Saturday Club), then you have no idea what I am getting at.  The MGNOC is a flawed business model for a motorcycle enthusiast's club, for the reasons I have previously stated.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HDGoose]

MGNOC Life member.

Don't care if you are or are not.

Not many people will attend rallies where the focus is riding anymore. The ride to the camp site. A Saturday ride of a couple hundred miles, just to ride in a large loop. The ride home. A large campfire, conversation, fancy booze and cigars for Friday and Saturday evening entertainment. And, oh my, sleeping in a minimal shelter.

I miss those simple rallies. MGNOC and IBMC used to be very similar formats. 

[Lannis]

Not many people will attend rallies where the focus is riding anymore. The ride to the camp site. A Saturday ride of a couple hundred miles, just to ride in a large loop. The ride home. A large campfire, conversation, fancy booze and cigars for Friday and Saturday evening entertainment. And, oh my, sleeping in a minimal shelter.

I miss those simple rallies. MGNOC and IBMC used to be very similar formats.  

I can assure you that every rally I've attended for 10 years has been a very simple rally, just as you've described.   That's because I MAKE it simple (even when I cook dinner for the group)!   If what you want to do is exactly what you said above, then that's just what you do.  Lots and lots of other people will be doing the same thing, or you can go join the young geeky guy who doesn't leave his corner of the campground, with his FJ1300, his jar of peanut butter, loaf of Wonder Bread, and have a good chat .....

Lannis

[redrider90]

I agree that the MGNOC is a club in the same way that Sam's Club is a club.

Come to think of it, I belong to at least one club:



Only six more lunches to go, and I get a free lunch!  Milton Friedman was wrong! Yipee!

If you are relying on Wikipedia or Webster's to counter my arguments, or are citing examples like a fitness club or Sam's Club (or the ABC Super Saturday Club), then you obviously have no idea what I am getting at.  I can make a case for the MGNOC being a flawed business model for a motorcycle enthusiast's club, but I can't teach critical thinking skills.  Sorry.

Oh so you are not talking about clubs but instead MGNOC being a flawed business model for a motorcycle enthusiast's club. Wow change of subject .  But you I thought you were saying that it should be a non profit. Now I am really confused cause things keep changing.  I just cannot keep up you Naked as the subject keeps changing.  This is so funny cause it just a freaking bunch of motorcyclists that pay dues to Frank. Now seeing that you do not have access to his books I fail to understand how you know it is a flawed business model. The guy has gotten 30 years out it and he has not gone belly up.  
Frank says he has 3200 members @ $30/year = $96,000 year gross. Haven't a clue as to his expenses but I would say max $25K which leaves him @ $71K before taxes. So the dude's making a living. And my guess is Larned Kansas pop 4000 is a pretty cheap place to live. So my bet is Frank has done just fine. Bad business model and all.
As for critical thinking and business models I know a little bit about running a business.
I ran a clinic at Duke University Hospital for 16 years that had in the 80s-90s a $1.5 million budget. I have had my own very successful private practice since 2001. I'm no millionaire but I am solvent and owe nobody a single penny. 

[HDGoose]

My MGNOC lifetime membership was equivalent of 7 years (maybe 5 years) of membership. That was 2007.

[youcanrunnaked]

Oh so you are not talking about clubs but instead MGNOC being a flawed business model for a motorcycle enthusiast's club. Wow change of subject .

No, I am saying that the MGNOC is not a club, in the sense of what that means for an enthusiast or hobby group.  

Yes, the MGNOC is a club, in the same way that the Flanigan's Lunch Club is a club.  ::)

It's a nuanced argument.  I am not changing the subject. 

The MGNOC represents a flawed business model because it takes in money while providing no services or goods, uses the efforts and financial risks of regional representatives and rally organizers without giving them anything tangible in return, and continues to exist mainly on the cult of personality that the sole owner has cultivated among its shrinking and aging membership.  There is only so long that such an organization can exist, and in the meantime, it is squandering opportunities to build its membership and generate interest and excitement among its members and beyond.

Also... "flawed" does not necessarily mean unsuccessful or unprofitable.

[HDGoose]

No, I am saying that the MGNOC is not a club, in the sense of what that means for an enthusiast or hobby group.  It's a nuanced argument, which is probably why you can't understand it.

Yes, the MGNOC is a club, in the same way that the Flanigan's Lunch Club is a club.  ::)

It's a flawed business model because it takes in money while providing no services or goods, uses the efforts and financial risks of regional representatives and rally organizers without giving them anything tangible in return, and continues to exist mainly on the cult of personality that the sole owner has cultivated among its shrinking and ageing membership.  There is only so long that such an organization can exist, and in the meantime, it is squandering opportunities to build its membership and generate interest and excitement among the membership.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Yes...it can only last perhaps another x-years. It has such a short history.

[youcanrunnaked]

Yes...it can only last perhaps another x-years. It has such a short history.

I get the sarcasm and I hope you are right.  Believe it or not, I am not rooting for the Club's demise.  In the meantime, what about those missed opportunities?  

Look, maybe it doesn't matter.  Maybe enough people will continue to be happy to put on and be on the hook for "sanctioned" rallies that are MGNOC in name only; that have no support from the National, save for a calendar listing.  (If even that; see my prior post about the Central Florida Rally.)  Maybe enough people will be pleased as punch to pay $30/ year (or $300 /lifetime) for a sticker and a membership card and little else -- under the mistaken belief that this is somehow "supporting the marque;" or because Frank Wedge is such a fixture in the Guzzi community and he deserves the support; or for whatever reason or for no reason.

I just happen to think that we, as a community, would be better served by a club that belonged to all of us, where we each had an equal say it how it was run, where we all had an equal opportunity to participate, where we all knew how much money was going in and from where, where we all knew how much money was going out and for what and to whom, which we could all count on as a true national resource to assist in local endeavors, and which had the backs of any of us who went out on a financial limb for the group.

[Lannis]

I just happen to think that we, as a community, would be better served by a club that belonged to all of us, where we each had an equal say it how it was run, where we all had an equal opportunity to participate, which could be counted on as a true national resource to assist in local endeavors, and which had the backs of anybody who went out on a financial limb for the group.

Go on, then.   With the energy spent so far just on this thread, the "equal opportunity" club could be halfway there.   

If you gotta shoot, shoot, don't talk.   

Lannis

[youcanrunnaked]

^^^  Here's my problem.  I can see a competing or "rival" club splitting the community and engendering ill-will.  That's not my intention.  Quite the opposite, as the main reason for a "better" MGNOC would be to foster a greater sense of community.

Can the MGNOC be reformed from within?  Several people have told me that is never going to happen, but, what if....?

I guess I could join the MGNOC as a "reformer," and see what happens, but as a new member, I believe I would lack credibility and will likely be seen as a rabble-rouser.  I think I would at least need the support of a few long-time MGNOC members who see this issue as I do.  Even then, would we be welcomed by the membership?  Despised?  Met with apathy?  I don't know.  If anyone who has a long history with the MGNOC wants to explore this with me, feel free to PM me.

This really is a dead and buried horse by now, so I will leave it at that.  I don't intend to comment on the subject any more except via PM, or unless I have something more tangible than ideas to offer.

[redrider90]

No, I am saying that the MGNOC is not a club, in the sense of what that means for an enthusiast or hobby group.  

Yes, the MGNOC is a club, in the same way that the Flanigan's Lunch Club is a club.  ::)

It's a nuanced argument, which is probably why you can't understand it.
The MGNOC represents a flawed business model because it takes in money while providing no services or goods, uses the efforts and financial risks of regional representatives and rally organizers without giving them anything tangible in return, and continues to exist mainly on the cult of personality that the sole owner has cultivated among its shrinking and aging membership.  There is only so long that such an organization can exist, and in the meantime, it is squandering opportunities to build its membership and generate interest and excitement among its members and beyond.

And to confuse you further... "flawed" does not necessarily mean unsuccessful or unprofitable.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

"It's a nuanced argument, which is probably why you can't understand it."   Oh really?   :bow
 It's not nice to be condescending and patronizing naked.  ::(
"I can explain it to you".  ::) :D ;)
You can? Well hot dang then how about doing it?   ;-T  Sooner rather than later cause this is wearing little old me down trying to figure out the nuanced  flaws in MGNOC.
Meantime I going for some  :pop while the entertainment continues. But really stay away from the put downs as they are not necessary.  Soon the PC  :+=copcar will appear and I will never get my answer cause this thread will get

[John Ulrich]

Join up and contribute!  Frank is looking for writers and rally reports.   ;-T

[fotoguzzi]

[redrider90]

^^^  Here's my problem.  I can see a competing or "rival" club splitting the community and engendering ill-will.  That's not my intention.  Quite the opposite, as the main reason for a "better" MGNOC would be to foster a greater sense of community.

Can the MGNOC be reformed from within?  Several people have told me that is never going to happen, but, what if....?

I guess I could join the MGNOC as a "reformer," and see what happens, but as a new member, I believe I would lack credibility and will likely be seen as a rabble-rouser.  I think I would at least need the support of a few long-time MGNOC members who see this issue as I do.  Even then, would we be welcomed by the membership?  Despised?  Met with apathy?  I don't know.  If anyone who has a long history with the MGNOC wants to explore this with me, feel free to PM me.

You're kidding right. I mean you cannot be serious about this. This is a freaking itsy bitsy teenie weenie motorcycle club and Frank doesn't even serve lunch. He gets the other guys to do it. Tom Sawyer's got nothing on Frank. People remember the fence scenario it because it's so clever. Tom tricks a bunch of boy into thinking that work – the thing that he doesn't want to do – is fun, so that he can spend the afternoon goofing off (and collecting dues).  He even get the boys to pay him (collecting dues) for the "privilege" of painting (belonging to his motorcycle club).  He turns punishment into pleasure, and pleases Aunt Polly in the process. Everybody dreams of this kind of thing. http://www.shmoop.com/tom-sawyer/fence-symbol.html

[redrider90]

Well seeing that I am 6'5" I'll be the giraffe even though I am taking a direct hit to the head . And shit I left  my helmet  at home with my  :bike :BEER:

[youcanrunnaked]

It's not nice to be condescending and patronizing naked.  ::(

You are correct and I apologize and will edit my entries accordingly.

However, I will point out that while you continue to accuse me of changing the subject, or changing the argument, if you go back and read everything that I have written on this subject, it has been all of a piece and of one note since the beginning.  So, either you are being disingenuous by claiming that you can't make sense of my argument, or you are being obtuse.  If the former, well, it isn't working, as plenty of others seem to know exactly what I am getting at (whether they agree with me or not), and if the latter... well, either way, I should not have mocked you.

[HDGoose]

People who are internet dependent do not comprehend how other people can function without constant internet usage.

[redrider90]

Craig and Harvey , both of you guys are well known to me , and are both very intelligent and decent guys . However , this has degenerated into a hoo hah waving contest , might be time for a reset . Heck , be mad at me for , well ... something , I can fade the heat  ;) :D

  Dusty 

His Honor has spoken.  ;D  We should take heed to his words of wisdom cause me thinks the Duster is trying to stop a fight from brewing here.  ;-T
I for one am embarrassed that I have continued this idiocy on my part. But  I gotta say one more thing before I go............  :D

[rocker59]

People who are internet dependent do not comprehend how other people can function without constant internet usage.

I spent a week in the Sangre de Cristso mountains of New Mexico last July with little to no cell, wi-fi, TV, or even radio access.

It was awesome!  Wish I could live on that old ranch, 30-miles up a gravel road.