To MGNOC, or not to MGNOC, the threadfest

[Arizona Wayne]

This MGMCNA is a non starter because there aren't enough Guzzi owners around to support it.  Your concept is top heavy. It would be like the BMW, Honda, Harley clubs, something I am not interested in being part of.  Besides, Moto Guzzi would not support it(no $).  As it is MG does sometimes attend some MGNOC National rallies and tune bikes.   Part of what I like about the MGNOC rallies is their simplicity.

[Lannis]

This MGMCNA is a non starter because there aren't enough Guzzi owners around to support it.   It would be like the BMW, Honda, Harley clubs, something I am not interested in being part of.  Besides, Moto Guzzi would not support it(no $).  As it is MG does sometimes attend some MGNOC National rallies and tune bikes.   Part of what I like about the MGNOC rallies is their simplicity.

You sure?   I hear that there are 10,000 + active Guzzi enthusiasts on this very list!   Bound to be able to support a club with those kinds of numbers. 

And even if the dues are $0, we can make it up on volume!!   :D :D

Lannis

[DCWCALI]

1.   The name of the club should not be "Moto Guzzi National Owner's Club" (MGNOC).  What's in a name, you ask?  Plenty.  It's how the world recognizes who you are as a group, and what you are about.  I propose:  Moto Guzzi Motorcycle Club of North America (MGMCNA). 

Count me in!!!

[rodekyll]

I know.   That's the way it's set up, and Luap is happy to run the forum using his own money, money from clicks on ads, and money volunteered from others.   I'm very glad he is willing to do that, regardless of what direction his cash flow is in.

I guess I look at it sort of like when a potluck dinner is served, where you either bring a covered dish or drop a little donation into the jar.   The folks sponsoring it don't require a donation, don't police it, and are happy to serve everyone who comes up.   I (just me) happen to think it's not quite right when someone comes and eats, and talks, and hangs around having dessert, and has a good time ... and doesn't bring anything at all, and acts like access to dinner and everything associated with it is his "due" somehow, even though they KNOW it is costing someone money.

Just my opinion.

Lannis

Just curious -- when was the last time you supplied dinner for an entire rally?

[Lannis]

Just curious -- when was the last time you supplied dinner for an entire rally?

Well, I've SUPPLIED dinner for an entire rally (80 to 130 people) about 5 times, either chili or beef stew, with bread, sides, cookies, etc at the Virginia rally.   Went out and bought the ingredients, prepared them, took them to the rally, then used the rally's stew pots and gas to cook it, then everyone helped serve it up.   Always worked very well.   The rallymaster reimbursed me for actual grocery costs, varied from $150 to about $280 depending on the size and what we were having, from the rally fees that the attendees paid.

I'm on pins and needles trying to figure out the point of the question.  Something nefarious, no doubt.

Lannis

[rodekyll]

Well, I've SUPPLIED dinner for an entire rally (80 to 130 people) about 5 times, either chili or beef stew, with bread, sides, cookies, etc at the Virginia rally.   Went out and bought the ingredients, prepared them, took them to the rally, then used the rally's stew pots and gas to cook it, then everyone helped serve it up.   Always worked very well.   The rallymaster reimbursed me for actual grocery costs, varied from $150 to about $280 depending on the size and what we were having, from the rally fees that the attendees paid.

I'm on pins and needles trying to figure out the point of the question.  Something nefarious, no doubt.

Lannis

Nothing nefarious.  Just trying to understand what degree of participation raises one from freeloading status to worthy human.  My confusion comes because without knowing anything about my participation in anything anywhere, some "know" me and have strongly implied that I'm a freeloader -- even though I don't meet their definition of same.

Maybe it would be easier to give us the Lannis-approved program for non-freeloading in the guzzi environment?


YCRN -- Nice outline.  You put some thought into that.   ;-T

[Lannis]

Nothing nefarious.  Just trying to understand what degree of participation raises one from freeloading status to worthy human.  My confusion comes because without knowing anything about my participation in anything anywhere, some "know" me and have strongly implied that I'm a freeloader -- even though I don't meet their definition of same.

I wouldn't imply ANYthing.   I just let people's consciences operate.   If it's not them I'm describing, they've got nothing to resent ... !

YCRN -- Nice outline.  You put some thought into that.   ;-T

Nope, just typed it quick.   When it's the truth, and you don't have to worry about which story you told last, you don't HAVE to think about it, just tell it ...  ;D   When 200 people have eaten your cooking, it's hard to tell porkies about it ...

Lannis

[youcanrunnaked]

Lannis, I think that last line from rodekyll was directed to me.  Yes, RK, I have been thinking and tinkering with a draft of that message of over the past few days.

That aside -- Lannis, I would love for you to make chili for an MGMCNA rally. 

I hope more people express an opinion on my suggestions.  I would not want to lead the way on this, only to turn around and see there is nobody behind me.  If I get enough positive feedback, I am willing to explore this, further. 

[PJPR01]

I have to admit, this thread is actually quite humorous, and probably could take place around a campfire at one of the rallies, or even a non-rally rally, and I suspect would keep most people up past 9 pm....there wouldn't be much snoring going on with the back and forth here.  :)  Keep up the entertainment guys!

[Lannis]

Lannis, I think that last line from rodekyll was directed to me.  Yes, RK, I have been thinking and tinkering with a draft of that message of over the past few days.

 

I guess I thought it was yet another of the text-driven acronyms like ROTFLMAO or YMMV.    My guess, given the context, for YCRN was "You Common Retarded Noodnik", so I thought it might be for me.

Your outline WAS well thought out though.   It sounds like a plan.

Lannis

[Dilliw]

I guess I thought it was yet another of the text-driven acronyms like ROTFLMAO or YMMV.    My guess, given the context, for YCRN was "You Common Retarded Noodnik", so I thought it might be for me.

Your outline WAS well thought out though.   It sounds like a plan.

Lannis

 ???  You can better than that. 

And if t were me I'd given you a YMWAHAYFSOE

[bad Chad]

With all due respect to Frank Wedge and his contributions toward the brand's survival in the 1970's, my calendar says it is now 2014.  The question is what can be done today to bring new life to the MGNOC.  If your answer is that there is no problem, so nothing needs to be done, then your nostalgic looks to the past or satisfaction with the status quo ante make some sense; otherwise, they do nothing to answer this question.

As I see it, the way to address this question is with another question:
If you were designing a national club for the marque, what would it look like?

Once we have a comprehensive list of what we want in such a club, it would fall to either Frank Wedge to change the MGNOC to incorporate our desires, or to some of us to form a new club, to make the dream a reality.  (Or neither happens, and this topic remains nothing more than a semi-regular exercise in frustration.)

I do not presume to have such a comprehensive list of wants and desires, but I have a few ideas.  Maybe you disagree with some or all of my ideas; maybe you have your own list -- feel free to post it here.  At least we can get the ball rolling.  I suggest that once we have such a list, someone close to Frank presents it to him to see if he has any interest in changing the MGNOC to accommodate our desires.  If no changes occur, we can consider the alternatives of either starting an independent club or doing nothing.

So, with the caveat that each and every sentence below should be read as beginning with the phrase "in my opinion," here is my list:

1.   The name of the club should not be "Moto Guzzi National Owner's Club" (MGNOC).  What's in a name, you ask?  Plenty.  It's how the world recognizes who you are as a group, and what you are about.  I propose:  Moto Guzzi Motorcycle Club of North America (MGMCNA).  This name is superior to "Moto Guzzi National Owner's Club" for several reasons:

a.   Our Canadian friends also ride Moto Guzzi motorcycles and participate in group activities.  (They have hosted a “national” rally!)  The club name should include “North America” rather than “National.”  Indeed, the name “National” is itself a misnomer, as every nation on Earth can claim a “national” organization.

b.   The name should include the word “motorcycle.”  Don’t laugh.  You may know that Moto Guzzi makes motorcycles, but I bet the majority of people (maybe even the majority of motorcyclists) do not.

c.   Calling the group an “owner’s club” is unnecessarily exclusionary, as it implies that you have to presently own a Moto Guzzi to be a member of the group.  We should signal that the group welcomes past, present and future owners, friends of owners, and the Moto Guzzi curious.  Either call it an “enthusiasts” club, or just drop the reference to “owners.”

2.   The MGMCNA should be organized as a not-for-profit, with a board of directors elected at regular intervals and officers either elected or appointed for distinct terms.  Officers should include regional representatives for distinct regions of North America, as well as state (province) representatives serving under them, in more populous areas.

3.   There should be annual dues set by the board of directors, and the board should also pursue opportunities for advertising revenue from businesses of interest to motorcyclists generally and Moto Guzzi enthusiasts in particular.  Rally fees should be as decided by the officers involved in organizing the particular rally, with oversight of the board.  Fees should be two-tiered: members and non-members.  Non-members should always be welcome to club events, but if a fee is charged, it should be discounted for members in order to drive membership.  There also needs to be complete fiscal transparency, with annual reports to the membership, and the majority if not all revenue going toward events, membership and marketing activities.

4.   Participation should be through volunteerism, with the MGMCNA providing reimbursement of volunteers’ out-of-pocket expenses subject to oversight and approval by the board.  If finances allow and the membership agrees, small stipend for board members and other volunteers should be considered.  Corporate sponsorship and advertising opportunities should include having them provide samples of their products and services that can be distributed to volunteers as “thank you” gifts as well as used as door prizes and such at rallies and other gatherings.  If the MGMCNA becomes large enough and active enough to justify a professional salaried director, either full-time or part-time, the board should consider hiring such a person to assist the volunteers.

5.   Membership dues should provide tangible benefits, such as:

a.   An online forum and newsletter covering a variety of topics of interest to the members.  The newsletter should be a professional-looking piece with technical, travel, touring, product news and rumors, racing news, bike show reports, and other information.  Members should be encouraged to contribute articles and rewarded with free gear, tools, or similar items provided by sponsors. The newsletter would be online, but one possible goal would be to grow it into a professionally produced monthly print magazine, with a possible reach into “lifestyle” subjects of interest to motorcyclists.  (I am thinking of publications like BMW Magazine and Red Bull’s The Red Bulletin.)

b.   Wide presence on social media – Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram, etc.

c.   Access to membership for networking, road trip assistance, lend-a-couch, etc.

d.   Offering discounted products and services of interest to the membership: roadside assistance plans, various forms of insurance, extended warranties, travel planning and tours, track days, riding schools, etc.

e.   A membership kit, with an ID card (with useful information), an MGMCNA pin, patch, and stickers, maybe a few other pieces of MGMCNA logo’d and Moto Guzzi logo’d swag, as well as a catalogue of MGMCNA merchandise available for purchase.

f.   Rally and other meeting planning and participation, including advertising and financial support for such activities.  The calendar of such activities should be packed with things to do, in all parts of North America.  These can be Moto Guzzi-centric events (where all brands are welcome) or motorcycle as well as other events where an organized Moto Guzzi presence would enhance the experience (e.g., Moto GP and SBK race weekends, Barber and Mid-Ohio Vintage Days, Stugis Black Hills Rally, Daytona Bike Week, Laconia Bike Week).

6.   The MGMCNA should work in close partnership with representatives of Moto Guzzi, Piaggio’s North American operations, and factory-authorized Moto Guzzi dealers in North America.  Local dealers and regional factory representatives should work with regional and state (province) MGMCNA representatives in presenting open houses, rallies, outings, and other opportunities to gather together and showcase the brand.  MGMCNA should be an independent not-for-profit, rather than a captive owner’s club, but many of the things that have made the Harley Owners Group (HOG) so successful should be emulated.  One thing that would drive membership and help sustain the organization is a deal that would have one free year of MGMCNA membership included with every purchase of a new Moto Guzzi motorcycle in North America (even better if Piaggio subsidizes all or a portion of the first year’s dues).  Another would be automatic annual membership renewal tied to the member’s credit card or bank account.  Now, imagine combining the two: A buyer of a new Moto Guzzi is offered one year’s free membership in  the MGMCNA, but in the process of signing up for the deal, they have to agree to automatic dues payment after the first year (cancellable by the member at any time, of course).

Again, the above are simply my thoughts on the subject.  I am putting them out here for discussion, including constructive criticism, so, have at it.

:+1

[LaMojo]

If you ask Frank Wedge, he would probably agree that MGNOC is pretty much a not- for - profit club.  Anyone that has volunteered to be a state rep can vouch for that.  Me included.   

[Lannis]

???  You can better than that. 

And if t were me I'd given you a YMWAHAYFSOE

Oh yeah, well NGAYSKOISTYA ....

[dilligaf]

Children-Children-Children  ;D   :BEER:
Matt

[oldbike54]

???  You can better than that. 

And if t were me I'd given you a YMWAHAYFSOE

Once again , that is not how Edelbrock is spelled , sheesh .

  Dusty

[ridingron]

With all due respect to Frank Wedge and his contributions toward the brand's survival in the 1970's, my calendar says it is now 2014.  The question is what can be done today to bring new life to the MGNOC.  If your answer is that there is no problem, so nothing needs to be done, then your nostalgic looks to the past or satisfaction with the status quo ante make some sense; otherwise, they do nothing to answer this question.

As I see it, the way to address this question is with another question:
If you were designing a national club for the marque, what would it look like?

Once we have a comprehensive list of what we want in such a club, it would fall to either Frank Wedge to change the MGNOC to incorporate our desires, or to some of us to form a new club, to make the dream a reality.  (Or neither happens, and this topic remains nothing more than a semi-regular exercise in frustration.)

I do not presume to have such a comprehensive list of wants and desires, but I have a few ideas.  Maybe you disagree with some or all of my ideas; maybe you have your own list -- feel free to post it here.  At least we can get the ball rolling.  I suggest that once we have such a list, someone close to Frank presents it to him to see if he has any interest in changing the MGNOC to accommodate our desires.  If no changes occur, we can consider the alternatives of either starting an independent club or doing nothing.

So, with the caveat that each and every sentence below should be read as beginning with the phrase "in my opinion," here is my list:

1.   The name of the club should not be "Moto Guzzi National Owner's Club" (MGNOC).  What's in a name, you ask?  Plenty.  It's how the world recognizes who you are as a group, and what you are about.  I propose:  Moto Guzzi Motorcycle Club of North America (MGMCNA).  This name is superior to "Moto Guzzi National Owner's Club" for several reasons:

a.   Our Canadian friends also ride Moto Guzzi motorcycles and participate in group activities.  (They have hosted a “national” rally!)  The club name should include “North America” rather than “National.”  Indeed, the name “National” is itself a misnomer, as every nation on Earth can claim a “national” organization.

b.   The name should include the word “motorcycle.”  Don’t laugh.  You may know that Moto Guzzi makes motorcycles, but I bet the majority of people (maybe even the majority of motorcyclists) do not.

c.   Calling the group an “owner’s club” is unnecessarily exclusionary, as it implies that you have to presently own a Moto Guzzi to be a member of the group.  We should signal that the group welcomes past, present and future owners, friends of owners, and the Moto Guzzi curious.  Either call it an “enthusiasts” club, or just drop the reference to “owners.”

2.   The MGMCNA should be organized as a not-for-profit, with a board of directors elected at regular intervals and officers either elected or appointed for distinct terms.  Officers should include regional representatives for distinct regions of North America, as well as state (province) representatives serving under them, in more populous areas.

3.   There should be annual dues set by the board of directors, and the board should also pursue opportunities for advertising revenue from businesses of interest to motorcyclists generally and Moto Guzzi enthusiasts in particular.  Rally fees should be as decided by the officers involved in organizing the particular rally, with oversight of the board.  Fees should be two-tiered: members and non-members.  Non-members should always be welcome to club events, but if a fee is charged, it should be discounted for members in order to drive membership.  There also needs to be complete fiscal transparency, with annual reports to the membership, and the majority if not all revenue going toward events, membership and marketing activities.

4.   Participation should be through volunteerism, with the MGMCNA providing reimbursement of volunteers’ out-of-pocket expenses subject to oversight and approval by the board.  If finances allow and the membership agrees, small stipend for board members and other volunteers should be considered.  Corporate sponsorship and advertising opportunities should include having them provide samples of their products and services that can be distributed to volunteers as “thank you” gifts as well as used as door prizes and such at rallies and other gatherings.  If the MGMCNA becomes large enough and active enough to justify a professional salaried director, either full-time or part-time, the board should consider hiring such a person to assist the volunteers.

5.   Membership dues should provide tangible benefits, such as:

a.   An online forum and newsletter covering a variety of topics of interest to the members.  The newsletter should be a professional-looking piece with technical, travel, touring, product news and rumors, racing news, bike show reports, and other information.  Members should be encouraged to contribute articles and rewarded with free gear, tools, or similar items provided by sponsors. The newsletter would be online, but one possible goal would be to grow it into a professionally produced monthly print magazine, with a possible reach into “lifestyle” subjects of interest to motorcyclists.  (I am thinking of publications like BMW Magazine and Red Bull’s The Red Bulletin.)

b.   Wide presence on social media – Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram, etc.

c.   Access to membership for networking, road trip assistance, lend-a-couch, etc.

d.   Offering discounted products and services of interest to the membership: roadside assistance plans, various forms of insurance, extended warranties, travel planning and tours, track days, riding schools, etc.

e.   A membership kit, with an ID card (with useful information), an MGMCNA pin, patch, and stickers, maybe a few other pieces of MGMCNA logo’d and Moto Guzzi logo’d swag, as well as a catalogue of MGMCNA merchandise available for purchase.

f.   Rally and other meeting planning and participation, including advertising and financial support for such activities.  The calendar of such activities should be packed with things to do, in all parts of North America.  These can be Moto Guzzi-centric events (where all brands are welcome) or motorcycle as well as other events where an organized Moto Guzzi presence would enhance the experience (e.g., Moto GP and SBK race weekends, Barber and Mid-Ohio Vintage Days, Stugis Black Hills Rally, Daytona Bike Week, Laconia Bike Week).

6.   The MGMCNA should work in close partnership with representatives of Moto Guzzi, Piaggio’s North American operations, and factory-authorized Moto Guzzi dealers in North America.  Local dealers and regional factory representatives should work with regional and state (province) MGMCNA representatives in presenting open houses, rallies, outings, and other opportunities to gather together and showcase the brand.  MGMCNA should be an independent not-for-profit, rather than a captive owner’s club, but many of the things that have made the Harley Owners Group (HOG) so successful should be emulated.  One thing that would drive membership and help sustain the organization is a deal that would have one free year of MGMCNA membership included with every purchase of a new Moto Guzzi motorcycle in North America (even better if Piaggio subsidizes all or a portion of the first year’s dues).  Another would be automatic annual membership renewal tied to the member’s credit card or bank account.  Now, imagine combining the two: A buyer of a new Moto Guzzi is offered one year’s free membership in  the MGMCNA, but in the process of signing up for the deal, they have to agree to automatic dues payment after the first year (cancellable by the member at any time, of course).

Again, the above are simply my thoughts on the subject.  I am putting them out here for discussion, including constructive criticism, so, have at it.


Would Robert's Rules for Order be in affect at all the rallies?  :)

[John Ulrich]

A lot of energy there ridingron.  Join MGNOC and seek a state rep position if your state is in need.  Otherwise help your state rep out.  We need people like you with fire in the belly and ready to go.  ;-T

[youcanrunnaked]

^^^ I have a feeling the "energy" you are complimenting is mine.  Yes, ridingron contributed -- he provided that dash of "snark" at the end.

[Damnyankee]

I have no dog in this fight since I am a freeloader. That said, MGNOC is an antique, has been since the beginning of the internet. I was a member for a short time but when my renewal came up I decided that there really was no value in MGNOC for me so I didn't bother to renew my membership, I had no idea that the "club" was a business for Mr. Wedge.

I've been an on and off member of WG since the beginning and always saw great value in this forum. At some point I thought I should leave the forum because my politics didn't match up with most here, I was an argumentative SOB so I left the forum. Well, I'm now 65 years old and a bit more relaxed (retired last May) so I now pop in here every once in awhile if I have something that I think may interest some of the members here and to see what Daniel K is up to, really like his photo essay's and I'm really sorry I just missed him when we were in Barrea, Italy at the same time.

I have to disagree with Kev M about Facebook though. I belong to the Italian group "California International Club" keeps me up on Guzzi happenings in Italy which I'll soon be calling home. I also follow Moto Guzzi on FB as well as my Italian side family in Abruzzo and friends in Mandello that keep me well informed about all things Moto Guzzi so, FB is still relevent to young and old. I admit though that I really don't like FB but it has great value to me and apparently a few million other people.

I don't however see MGNOC as relevent, if it ever really was. This forum and several other Moto Guzzi forums have been in terms of participation  way more relevent than MGNOC. What exactly do you get from MGNOC that you can't get from WG or the other Guzzi forums for free? What exactly does MGNOC provide that WG doesn't?

Anyway, my Bassa is still kicking ass at 14 years old despite a couple of come offs and it was a WG member that got me a part that was damaged in the latest come off. I'm not really a cruiser fan anymore but I suppose I'll always have it, maybe not as technologically advanced as say the Griso but it's apparently way more dependable ;D

Without this forum, I would never met the likes of Vasco and many other Guzzi owners that I've come to meet in person. Far as I can tell, WG is far more relevent than MGNOC and if it's new, younger riders you're looking for this is a much better venue to promote. Besides, age is not relevent, hell I'm 65 going on 18 and stll love to thrash the hell outa' my Bassa and my 675 Daytona.

[Nick]

.....Italy which I'll soon be calling home.

A "little off topic"

Hey DY,
Barrea di notte....

Good luck on your relocation/retirement.

[Damnyankee]

A "little off topic"

Hey DY,
Barrea di notte....

Good luck on your relocation/retirement.

;-T   Home sweet home! Thanks Nick, I still sorta miss NJ  :D

[Kev m]

I have to disagree with Kev M about Facebook though. I belong to the Italian group "California International Club" keeps me up on Guzzi happenings in Italy which I'll soon be calling home. I also follow Moto Guzzi on FB as well as my Italian side family in Abruzzo and friends in Mandello that keep me well informed about all things Moto Guzzi so, FB is still relevent to young and old. I admit though that I really don't like FB but it has great value to me and apparently a few million other people.

I love it when a 65 y/o retired curmudgeon (  :P ) tries to tell the dad of a teenager (who has multiple brother-in-laws and sister-in-laws in their teens and twentys) what the "youth" are doing.  :P  :D

Facebook IS your father's Oldsmobile. The youth see it as something their parents do.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/teens-leaving-facebook/story?id=20739310

http://business.time.com/2014/01/15/more-than-11-million-young-people-have-fled-facebook-since-2011/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10539274/Young-users-see-Facebook-as-dead-and-buried.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gyro/2014/01/09/forbes-where-are-teens-hanging-out-in-2014-hint-its-not-facebook/

[blackcat]

How many teens or people in their twenty's are buying new motorcycles?

Less car driving and the assumption is they are probably not shifting to motorcycles. 

"That today’s youth are driving markedly less than their predecessors seems clear. Between 2001 and 2009, a period in which the recession emerged and gasoline prices shot up, Americans of all ages reduced their driving. The U.S. population grew by about 10 percent during those years, but the total distance Americans drove fell by about 1 percent—a reversal from prior decades, when total miles traveled kept climbing, according to the Federal Highway Administration. Driving fell most sharply during the first decade of this century among those aged 16 to 30. Per-person miles traveled fell 2 percent among those 56 and older; 11 percent among those 31 to 55, and a massive 25 percent—more than twice as much as for the middle-aged group—among those 16 to 30. Another indicator: The portion of Americans aged 16 to 24 who have driver’s licenses fell to 67 percent in 2011, its lowest level in roughly a half-century, according to federal statistics cited in a report last year by the U.S. PIRG Educational Fund and the Frontier Group, two environmentally oriented organizations."

[Randown]

A "freeloader" would be someone who takes advantage of the Forum, but who doesn't volunteer to help support it.
...
Lannis

There are no "freeloaders" here.  This is a free forum.  All are welcome.

I know.  
...
Lannis

 ???  :P

[Gliderjohn]

Due to the nature of my work I work in multiple high schools so I see and talk with many teens. The area I work has no public transportations to speak of. With that in mind it still surprises me how low on the radar screen driving is for a surprising number of teens. My largest high school has around 700 students and in warmer weather you will see four or five student motorcycles in the parking lots. Most who are into motorcycles are dirt biking or motocrossing but not street riding to speak of.
That being said I have also been surprised that a few are aware of Moto Guzzi and I have received compliments and questions concerning my Norge.  ;-T
GliderJohn

[Randown]

...

I guess I look at it sort of like when a potluck dinner is served, where you either bring a covered dish or drop a little donation into the jar.   The folks sponsoring it don't require a donation, don't police it, and are happy to serve everyone who comes up.   I (just me) happen to think it's not quite right when someone comes and eats, and talks, and hangs around having dessert, and has a good time ... and doesn't bring anything at all, and acts like access to dinner and everything associated with it is his "due" somehow, even though they KNOW it is costing someone money.

Just my opinion.

Lannis

But that's just it. The hosts have made it CLEAR over & over again that it's more important that GUESTS show up to this party.

Yet there's someone who can't help himself but to police the jar & judge others contribution to the event based solely on what's placed inside.

He seeks to prevent those guests from having a good time by making sure it be known they are "freeloaders".

Aren't you sabotaging the hosts party?

[Kev m]

How many teens or people in their twenty's are buying new motorcycles?

Less car driving and the assumption is they are probably not shifting to motorcycles. 

"That today’s youth are driving markedly less than their predecessors seems clear. Between 2001 and 2009, a period in which the recession emerged and gasoline prices shot up, Americans of all ages reduced their driving. The U.S. population grew by about 10 percent during those years, but the total distance Americans drove fell by about 1 percent—a reversal from prior decades, when total miles traveled kept climbing, according to the Federal Highway Administration. Driving fell most sharply during the first decade of this century among those aged 16 to 30. Per-person miles traveled fell 2 percent among those 56 and older; 11 percent among those 31 to 55, and a massive 25 percent—more than twice as much as for the middle-aged group—among those 16 to 30. Another indicator: The portion of Americans aged 16 to 24 who have driver’s licenses fell to 67 percent in 2011, its lowest level in roughly a half-century, according to federal statistics cited in a report last year by the U.S. PIRG Educational Fund and the Frontier Group, two environmentally oriented organizations."

Good point and also true.

Of course, I personally believe the seed is planted then, so you would still do well to reach them.

And if you don't try, well, you just don't reach them right and I don't know how that helps anyone in the industry.

[Lannis]

But that's just it. The hosts have made it CLEAR over & over again that's it more important that GUESTS show up to this party.

Yet there's someone who's watching the jar & solely judges their contribution to the event based on what's placed inside.

Then he seeks to prevent those guests from having a good time by proclaiming them "freeloaders".

Aren't you sabotaging the hosts party?

So I'm "watching the jar".

"Seeking to prevent".

"Sabotaging".

Dang, I had no idea I was so powerful and influential.   Either that, or there's some paranoia in the air.

I know that it absolutely worries some people to DEATH when they see an opinion expressed on WG that is different from theirs.   Rocker's and Luap's opinion (the ones that count) are that everyone is welcome whether they contribute anything or not.   My opinion (which doesn't count, sabotage, prevent, etc) is that people who use the forum to communicate, buy, sell, express opinions, trash-talk, learn, look at pictures, etc maybe should contribute a little something toward the costs of doing all that.  

Sorry if that bothers you.

Lannis

[Randown]

It was YOUR analogy - just holding up a mirror. Don't get me wrong, I like you Lannis, just trying to keep it real.  P:)  ~;