To MGNOC, or not to MGNOC, the threadfest

[redrider90]

Frank is not the glue to the Marque. How many people bought a Guzzi, kept a Guzzi or got others interested in a Guzzi because of Frank.
My answer is nobody. Guzzi in the 70s and 80s were selling bikes in Europe hand over foot compared to America  because of the market. I never hear of Frank until after I bought a Guzzi.
There was a national Ducati club same as  MAGNOC. It was run by a guy Joel E**** I do not remember his last name. Anybody think that Joel owing a  a National Ducati club is the reason Ducati took off as one of the top brands in the world. Of course not.
All this talk about Frank is the glue is crazy. That means when Frank dies Guzzi will go out of business. What a laugher.
Frank filled a void in the 70's. For those of you youngins you might not remember that the MC market went  belly up. Except for BMW the rest of European manufactures either went belly up or they struggled to keep the doors open. Honda, Kawa, Suzuki came along and built cheap bikes that keep people interested in bikes.
Now we have how many manufacturers world wide?
Frank Wedge made a living off putting together an club of people who owned a somewhat rare unusual Italian MC. That's all he did. He made a living off a group of guys who paid him to put together a newsletter and got guys to write stories (some very good) and got some people to act as sponsors in some states to act as reps to the clubs that put on rallies.  He paid no one anything ever. Did he pay the writers for their stories? No. Did he pay the reps to run MGNOC chapters in their respective states? No.  All he did was cash the checks guys sent to him to belong. That's cool but it is not glue. It is free enterprise. He took lessons from Tom Sawyer. Good for him but so what. I fail to understand why Frank is some sort of legend. So for those of you who are loyal to him good for you. For the rest who could not care less good for you. I see no one really hating the guy. He is what he is: an entrepreneur of sorts that road a MC to work. 

[trippah]

Well, don't own a Guzzi (yet) but maybe after Suzi the Savage leaves me I will consider; the v-7 looks nice.
1): As to MGNOC - it doesn't seem to hide the fact that people who join "own" Guzzis, not really a surprise.
2):  I don't think anyone should begrudge Frank Wedge for starting and owning the club- this is a nation of enterpreneurs.  If Moto Guzzi (the corp or MG US)  wants to start a club in the US it seems they might want to fight over the name but really, they could call theirs "Official" or "Officially recognized" that would help us poor consumers.
3): It seems that as MG makes more reliable machines, one of the main values of MGNOC is reduced and also, as the machines get more and more complex those on the list will be able to help less and less.   We all vote with our checkbooks; and Mr. Wedge's the  guy to see if you are interested in the financial viability of MGNOC.
It is the first day of Spring and it is snowing.  :beat_horse

[Tom]

On the other hand.....you can also donate money to the operation of the forum which got the sanction from Frank.   ;-T  Before the forum, the owner's club was the only way for MG owners to stay in contact with like minded people.

One of the non-stated benefits is the ease of MGNOC owners to open their homes and bikes to other members.   ;-T  A forum member only.  Not so sure if I would extend myself to them. 

[Joliet Jim]

On the other hand.....you can also donate money to the operation of the forum which got the sanction from Frank.   ;-T  Before the forum, the owner's club was the only way for MG owners to stay in contact with like minded people.

One of the non-stated benefits is the ease of MGNOC owners to open their homes and bikes to other members.   ;-T  A forum member only.  Not so sure if I would extend myself to them. 

That explains why you make me stay at the hilton when I come out there. ;)

[jmac851]

It sounds like you are just too cheap to pay the annual dues. Man up and send in the money.

[Tom]

That explains why you make me stay at the hilton when I come out there. ;)

Yeah, what can I say.  No room service here.  ;D

[Guzzistajohn]

I've had a on and off relationship with MGNOC since oh..... 1990ish. Off for now. I did like the paper version. I've met many more Guzzi friends here than I ever did on the MGNOC. Frank Wedge?  It's not like he water boarded any one till they paid thier dues, what's the big deal?

[Nic in Western NYS]

I liked the paper version and don't use the online version much.  I continue as a member out of respect to FW and to support the badge (plus I like the decal).

[redrider90]

A little history. If it were not for the MGNOC keeping the marque flying back in the 80's there would be no Guzzis in the USA. Andy Thompson Ind st rep

This is a pretty bold idea. How did MGNOC sell Guzzis? Moto Guzzi is an international corporation that sells far more bikes in Europe than the US.
It is bizarre to think that MGNOC keep Guzzi going in the 80s. US Guzzi sales were a drop in the bucket in the 80s vs the rest of the world.
From WIKI on production figures.

[Chuck in Indiana]

On the other hand.....you can also donate money to the operation of the forum which got the sanction from Frank.     Before the forum, the owner's club was the only way for MG owners to stay in contact with like minded people.

Exactly. When Frank gave the ok to Luap.. must have had something against Roy Harvey, the webmaster of the MGCL, a text only MG list.. I thought, "Frank, you are making your newsletter superfluous." WG will have information and pictures long before the print newsletter comes out. I still paid my dues for years, though, although there was little in the newsletter that wasn't already posted on WG.
Other than...
Some of the articles written by guys like Daniel, Mark, Jamie, Kip, Rand.. I'll quit because I'll no doubt forget someone.. were worth the price of admission. Until The Incident.. ;D

[youcanrunnaked]

It sounds like you are just too cheap to pay the annual dues. Man up and send in the money.

... says the New Goose with zero dollars donated here.

Bwahahaha!  That's it!  You've cracked the case!  Bravo!

/sarcasm

[lee swanger]

I will be in it as long as I go to rallies. 34 yr. member. Pessimissim is the cheap and easy way.

[markw]

could someone explain why this Forum needed the permission of Frank to exist ? I am clearly ignorant of the intricacies of setting up a Forum but cannot see why his permission (sanction) was required.

[zedXmick]

Well i look at it this way.....how many people would give  $30.00 to be part of an "owners club"  IF UPFRONT it stated that said "owners club" would not even help ($) with any regional rallies AND not even help out ($) for the NATIONAL rally! The state reps should NOT have to loose their own money if the rally falls short on any given year.

I would think that is one of the WORST business model to ever use..... I wolud think an "owners club" would want to improve rallies,help them grow....bring MORE people into the brand.....and of course bring more paying owners into your club.

The current MGNOC is not a  "owners club" to me..... FRAUD is more like it.

Hell I don't have any dog in this fight...I'm still searching for my first Guzzi.....but if 3200 people want to send me $30.00 a year for a "sub owners club" I'll make sure to spend the money to help the club GROW.

[rodekyll]

could someone explain why this Forum needed the permission of Frank to exist ? I am clearly ignorant of the intricacies of setting up a Forum but cannot see why his permission (sanction) was required.

It was a courtesy thing.  There was no requirement.

[Lannis]

Well i look at it this way.....how many people would give  $30.00 to be part of an "owners club"  IF UPFRONT it stated that said "owners club" would not even help ($) with any regional rallies AND not even help out ($) for the NATIONAL rally! The state reps should NOT have to loose their own money if the rally falls short on any given year.

I would think that is one of the WORST business model to ever use..... I wolud think an "owners club" would want to improve rallies,help them grow....bring MORE people into the brand.....and of course bring more paying owners into your club.

The current MGNOC is not a  "owners club" to me..... FRAUD is more like it.

Hell I don't have any dog in this fight...I'm still searching for my first Guzzi.....but if 3200 people want to send me $30.00 a year for a "sub owners club" I'll make sure to spend the money to help the club GROW.

Well, maybe you could send some of the money you're saving on MGNOC dues to Wild Guzzi?   They're certainly helping you get your FRAUD message across, even though you've got "no dog in this fight" ...... Just a suggestion.   There's no requirement at all .....

Lannis (I'm running out of "I'm In The Third Group" pins this week, you may have to wait ...)  :D

[rodekyll]

"But a core of people seem genuinely hostile toward the MGNOC, toward Frank Wedge, indeed toward the very IDEA of a MGNOC.   There is almost virtual spit flying out of their mouths as they damn it up street and down alley for a time-wasting, money-wasting, irrelevant scam, and they want it to go away, and they don't want anyone to belong to it."

Well i look at it this way.....how many people would give  $30.00 to be part of an "owners club"  IF UPFRONT it stated that said "owners club" would not even help ($) with any regional rallies AND not even help out ($) for the NATIONAL rally! The state reps should NOT have to loose their own money if the rally falls short on any given year.

I would think that is one of the WORST business model to ever use..... I wolud think an "owners club" would want to improve rallies,help them grow....bring MORE people into the brand.....and of course bring more paying owners into your club.

The current MGNOC is not a  "owners club" to me..... FRAUD is more like it.

Hell I don't have any dog in this fight...I'm still searching for my first Guzzi.....but if 3200 people want to send me $30.00 a year for a "sub owners club" I'll make sure to spend the money to help the club GROW.

Well, maybe you could send some of the money you're saving on MGNOC dues to Wild Guzzi?   They're certainly helping you get your FRAUD message across, even though you've got "no dog in this fight" ...... Just a suggestion.   There's no requirement at all .....

Lannis (I'm running out of "I'm In The Third Group" pins this week, you may have to wait ...)  :D

Maybe I'm not seeing the spittle, or maybe I'm too far north to feel it, but I really don't get why you're saying this is a third-group comment.  It's not even new ground.  I don't see any hatred of Frank, of the mgnoc, any spittle, or "make it go away".  I do see an opinionated someone who objects to the business model, thinks it's counterproductive, and gives reasons based on the things that have been said in this topic.  So educate me -- group three, or you're just trading in innuendo?  While you're at it, tell us who all else has been awarded your pin, and why? 

On the other hand, you're rather cloddishly leaning on someone to give money to luap.  I thought that was settled earlier.

[redrider90]

Even if MGNOC was a nonprofit that would not change a thing. People who work for nonprofits take salaries they do necessarily not work for free. There are clubs that charge a fee and clubs that  do charge a fee. Frank is not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes by charging a fee for access to his newsletter and whatever else he provides for that fee.
For more on nonprofits see  "How to make money off a nonprofit".
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/make-money-nonprofit-organization-935.html
Someone said  "What Frank did with his "club" thirty years ago is not a rational basis for membership in a marque club TODAY, or a reflection of the value of such membership TODAY, or an answer to, or justification for, the flaws in "this business."
What has changed in the last 30 years since Frank started MGNOC? Only 1 thing...... the internet. That's it folks.
MGNOC is probably the under the sole proprietary ownership of Frank Wedge. Just like I am the sole proprietary owner of my own chapter S corporation.
The ideas that
1. Frank saved the Marque from going bankrupt in the 80s is ludicrous
2. That Frank should somehow turn this into a non profit so MGNOC can continue after he croaks is meaningless and ludicrous.
3.Either someone starts a new organization or they collectively get together on WG or some other site and make their rallies known to the public.

Ton UP has rallies every year and does quite well thank you without Frank Wedge. They are a nonprofit club that sells products on the internet and charges to enter a bike to be  shown in the events.
Really these guys do it for the love the machine and the events they put on:  but money still passes hands.  Ton Up is one kind of club and MGNOC is another kind of club.
I could not care less if Frank makes millions off his MGNOC. I think the grunts on the ground who put up the rallies deserve the gold star for working their butts off for little if no money.
As for where would I rather hang out. Well I like rallies a whole bunch but I can get a "Guzzi" fix anytime I want it just by opening the lid on my computer machine anytime of the day or night.
 And as for tips well what I have seen happen in realtime on WG since I joined 2 years ago is crazy impressive with the knowledge and willingness of folks to help each other out. And watch it unfold in realtime is a blast.  And dare I say we talk about out dogs, and spouses, wood burning stoves and other bikes we own even god forbid they are not Guzzi's and sometimes about guns oh no not guns... ;D
So for me Frank is pass'e but MGNOC still seems to be thriving and GOOD for those who belong and GOOD for Frank if makes a buck off it. He just doesn't get my buck. And may all the rallies be jammed packed and rain free this year. And may WG survive hackers and all the rest of the scum bags who are trying to jam up the internet.
I for one do not care a bit about what MGNOC should or should not be. It is what it is and who freaking cares. This is worse than having a fight with my  :wife:  Either join MGNOC and have a good time or do not join and have a good time. WTF is this craziness about.  ??? ??? Frank Wedge and MGNOC..... so what. Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[blackcat]

It is what it is and who freaking cares.

Amen.

[redrider90]

 Seriously , Spring is here for most of us , and will make an appearance shortly for you guys up North . Let's attend some events , sanctioned or not . For those of you unable to attend for health or other reasons , maybe we can include you in the fun with the use of social media , or simply conference calls on speaker phone.  
  Dusty                                                                        

I WANT A LIVE WEB CAM FROM CEDAR VALE. HOW ABOUT IT D-MAN CAN YOU GET SOMEONE TO PULL IT OFF.
SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE 4G ACCESS AND PUT IT UP.  BE THE FIRST TO DO A LIVE WEB CAM OF A GUZZI HANGOUT.  :D ;D ;)   

                                                                
                                                                      

[Joe A.]

Even if MGNOC was a nonprofit that would not change a thing. People who work for nonprofits take salaries they do necessarily not work for free. There are clubs that charge a fee and clubs that  do charge a fee. Frank is not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes by charging a fee for access to his newsletter and whatever else he provides for that fee.
For more on nonprofits see  "How to make money off a nonprofit".
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/make-money-nonprofit-organization-935.html
Someone said  "What Frank did with his "club" thirty years ago is not a rational basis for membership in a marque club TODAY, or a reflection of the value of such membership TODAY, or an answer to, or justification for, the flaws in "this business."
What has changed in the last 30 years since Frank started MGNOC? Only 1 thing...... the internet. That's it folks.
MGNOC is probably the under the sole proprietary ownership of Frank Wedge. Just like I am the sole proprietary owner of my own chapter S corporation.
The ideas that
1. Frank saved the Marque from going bankrupt in the 80s is ludicrous
2. That Frank should somehow turn this into a non profit so MGNOC can continue after he croaks is meaningless and ludicrous.
3.Either someone starts a new organization or they collectively get together on WG or some other site and make their rallies known to the public.

Ton UP has rallies every year and does quite well thank you without Frank Wedge. They are a nonprofit club that sells products on the internet and charges to enter a bike to be  shown in the events.
Really these guys do it for the love the machine and the events they put on:  but money still passes hands.  Ton Up is one kind of club and MGNOC is another kind of club.
I could not care less if Frank makes millions off his MGNOC. I think the grunts on the ground who put up the rallies deserve the gold star for working their butts off for little if no money.
As for where would I rather hang out. Well I like rallies a whole bunch but I can get a "Guzzi" fix anytime I want it just by opening the lid on my computer machine anytime of the day or night.
 And as for tips well what I have seen happen in realtime on WG since I joined 2 years ago is crazy impressive with the knowledge and willingness of folks to help each other out. And watch it unfold in realtime is a blast.  And dare I say we talk about out dogs, and spouses, wood burning stoves and other bikes we own even god forbid they are not Guzzi's and sometimes about guns oh no not guns... ;D
So for me Frank is pass'e but MGNOC still seems to be thriving and GOOD for those who belong and GOOD for Frank if makes a buck off it. He just doesn't get my buck. And may all the rallies be jammed packed and rain free this year. And may WG survive hackers and all the rest of the scum bags who are trying to jam up the internet.
I for one do not care a bit about what MGNOC should or should not be. It is what it is and who freaking cares. This is worse than having a fight with my  :wife:  Either join MGNOC and have a good time or do not join and have a good time. WTF is this craziness about.  ??? ??? Frank Wedge and MGNOC..... so what. Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh

We have a winner in the Annual MGNOC WEDGE Winter fest essay contest ;D  :BEER:

[redrider90]

We have a winner in the Annual MGNOC WEDGE Winter fest essay contest ;D  :BEER:

Yea that makes 2 votes for me!  :D ;D :BEER:  :+1

[Lannis]

On the other hand, you're rather cloddishly leaning on someone to give money to luap.  I thought that was settled earlier.

I don't have an official copy of the settlement agreement, but the minutes of the last business meeting said something about not using the "f*********" word any more when referring to that subject.   So I'm not! .....  ;D

Lanns

[youcanrunnaked]

Even if MGNOC was a nonprofit that would not change a thing....

I beg to differ.  What you wrote is simply, legally, factually incorrect.

As I wrote earlier:

It's also not about whether Frank "makes money" from "this business."  While I believe that an entity such as the MGNOC should be organized as a not-for-profit corporation, I make this assertion based on the legal requirements that a not-for profit corporation has to follow concerning self-governance, operational formalities, record-keeping, reporting, and transparency, all of which are designed to benefit the membership of such an organization, and none of which apply to a for-profit sole proprietorship or close corporation.  

As I acknowledged immediately after the above, not-for-profit does not mean "not profitable."  Frank Wedge or any future President of the MGNOC could draw a salary for their work, but as a not-for-profit, that salary would have to be approved by a board of directors who themselves are answerable to the membership, and disclosed in financial statements distributed to the membership.  Compare that to the present situation, where nobody but Frank knows the finances of the Club, Frank takes from it whatever he wants  -- as compensation for as much or as little work as he chooses to do, and nobody else has any say in these or any other operational matters.

For the life of me, I can't understand what is so difficult to understand about this point.  It seems to me that at a minimum, having a valid opinion on whether the MGNOC should continue as a close corporation or sole proprietorship (not really sure which of the two it is; the MGNOC web site gives no indication, and the Kansas Secretary of State has nothing on record regarding the organization), or should be organized as a not-for-profit corporation, requires that you know that there are substantial  differences between these types of business entities.  It makes a difference.  Whether that difference is important to current or prospective members is a fair point for debate, but saying that re-organizing the MGNOC as a not-for-profit corporation "would not change a thing" is absurd.

[LowRyter]

I WANT A LIVE WEB CAM FROM CEDAR VALE. HOW ABOUT IT D-MAN CAN YOU GET SOMEONE TO PULL IT OFF.
SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE 4G ACCESS AND PUT IT UP.  BE THE FIRST TO DO A LIVE WEB CAM OF A GUZZI HANGOUT.  :D ;D ;)  

                                                                
                                                                      

here it is.  Hard to tell the live image from an old photo.   ;D  

But here it is live:   ;)





just keep looking....you'll see a cloud or stray dog..........see, there it is

[oldbike54]

 Fellas , our opinions don't make one whit of difference . Sorry , but that is the truth , and arguing over the way that the club does business is nothing more than a hoo hah waving contest . Let it go , Frank doesn't care .

  Dusty

[youcanrunnaked]

Frank doesn't care .

If it mattered to the membership and/or prospective members, would it matter to Frank? 

Maybe someone here who has a relationship with Frank can ask him.

As I indicated, I am in favor of evolution, rather than revolution.

[redrider90]

I beg to differ.  What you wrote is simply, legally, factually incorrect.

As I wrote earlier:

It's also not about whether Frank "makes money" from "this business."  While I believe that an entity such as the MGNOC should be organized as a not-for-profit corporation, I make this assertion based on the legal requirements that a not-for profit corporation has to follow concerning self-governance, operational formalities, record-keeping, reporting, and transparency, all of which are designed to benefit the membership of such an organization, and none of which apply to a for-profit sole proprietorship or close corporation. 

As I acknowledged immediately after the above, not-for-profit does not mean "not profitable."  Frank Wedge or any future President of the MGNOC could draw a salary for their work, but as a not-for-profit, that salary would have to be approved by a board of directors who themselves are answerable to the membership, and disclosed in financial statements distributed to the membership.  Compare that to the present situation, where nobody but Frank knows the finances of the Club, Frank takes from it whatever he wants  -- as compensation for as much or as little work as he chooses to do, and nobody else has any say in these or any other operational matters.

For the life of me, I can't understand what is so difficult to understand about this point.  It seems to me that at a minimum, having a valid opinion on whether the MGNOC should continue as a close corporation or sole proprietorship (not really sure which of the two it is; the MGNOC web site gives no indication, and the Kansas Secretary of State has nothing on record regarding the organization), or should be organized as a not-for-profit corporation, requires that you know that there are substantial  differences between these types of business entities.  It makes a difference.  Whether that difference is important to current or prospective members is a fair point for debate, but saying that re-organizing the MGNOC as a not-for-profit corporation "would not change a thing" is absurd.

It does not matter what you think. It is none of your nor my business how Frank operates MGNOC. If you did you homework as it seems you have, you checked registered corporations in Kansas (BTW it could be registered in a different state) and it is not listed.  Frank can still run it as a business under his SS#.
 MGNOC has nothing to to with international Moto Guzzi  corporation. Frank is not an advisor on any Guzzi board. He is just some dude from Kanas who runs a club. It's like selling lemonade.  All it is is a freaking club of guys who belong to an a motorcycle club which goes by the name of MGNOC. Probably all of them own motorcycles and all of them own or have owned a Guzzi. Owning a Guzzi is not required but paying dues is. So freaking what. Frank does not have put shit up on his website about what money he makes. It's his business. I do not tell people how much money my business makes.
 People who buy Guzzi's are interested in a million things when they buy a Goose and I'll bet you my place down here on the river with 10 acres to your dime that not one person thinks about Frank Wedge and MGNOC when they drop their dime for a bike. Not the guy who is buying a rat bike Guzzi off ebay nor the guy who is buying a dressed new California.  :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse
 

[youcanrunnaked]

^^^  You have completely missed my point.

If it's "nobody's business" how Frank operates the MGNOC, the it's NOT A CLUB.

EDIT:  Yes, I am well aware that the MGNOC has the word "club" in its name.  Labeling it a club does not make it so.  (The fact that the MGNOC purports to be a club when it really is not is, as I have said, one of my concerns regarding the organization.)  

A wikipedia definition does not make it so.  

A club is generally a membership, fraternal or service organization, which is run by its members, is accountable to its members, and exists for the benefit of its members.  Since that does not describe the MGNOC, it is not really a club.

[Dilliw]

Probably be a better discussion for the MGNOC facebook page for sure.  According to a post there they have 2,611 members and I believe you have to join the MGNOC to be one.