B11/Norge Startus Interruptus-the MPH Solution

[JRCALVIN]

Hi Mike,
2007 CalVin which have same issue when cold, however it is fine at over 68F.
Does this fix apply to the CalVin and if so, I will like to purchase one on my next visit to Houston on November 22.

[Idontwantapickle]

So my battery on the Norge got a bit lazy after a couple weeks of lolygagin' around in the garage. Yesterday my ride was briefly delayed by an annoying click followed by no start. Charge battery and off to ride.
BUT being the owner of a Guzzi I thought I would go back and look at the no start threads (very informative) and see if I had an issue.
Maybe yes, maybe no.
I studied (curious nature) the solutions, complaints, and Carl's valuable diagram for the Norge. I was left with a nagging question:
What happens if a modified relay circuit sticks and cranks out of control due to the relay failing?
On the original setup the human turns the key off breaking the circuit to the solenoid, not just the relay. This is most likely why the factory did it this way. I have never had a bike do it, but I have seen the nuclear meltdown that can occur when a car starter circuit cranks to death. No doubt the legal dept had a say in that. Any thoughts from y'all? My apologies if this has been covered, I did not find it when I looked.

Hunter

[Bill Hagan]

As Wayne had done this repair to my Norge before the Havens created their elegant fix discussed here, I did not think much about this.  My Norge, once a frustrating machine that needed to be parked on a hill or have strong friends along, has not skipped a beat since Wayne did his surgery on it.

And, this thread was pretty much history by time I bought my Griso, so I did not pay much attention when it got bumped a couple of times after that.

But, I happened to talk with mojohand and then saw his earlier post about ordering one for his Griso, too.  Then, saw that danr and chicago mark did same.  Hmmmmmm. 

Just off phone with Todd.  One's inbound to Milan.  Thanks, MPH.

Bill

P.S.  I note that no one answered Idontwantapickle's question -- last before my post here -- about "runaway" starter.  Anything to that?

[Wayne Orwig]

P.S.  I note that no one answered Idontwantapickle's question -- last before my post here -- about "runaway" starter.  Anything to that?

You're screwed......

Not impossible. But then a sticking solenoid is also possible.
Best bet. Know how to get the seat off and where the fuse or relay is to pull if the starter keeps going. Very unlikely thing, but possible.

[SemperVee]

You're screwed......

Not impossible. But then a sticking solenoid is also possible.
Best bet. Know how to get the seat off and where the fuse or relay is to pull if the starter keeps going. Very unlikely thing, but possible.
[/quote

 It had only happened once,  so yes it is rare -  I experienced a stuck solenoid at an embarrassing event. I was teaching an MSF advanced rider course and was just about to demonstrate how to ride the course on my 1989 Hardley Electra Glide FLHTC.  I had just announced to the class to " do what I do on the course ".  Hit the starter button and smoke started rising from behind the R saddle bag and the starter would not stop "Starting".  I quickly unhooked the battery connection.  Of course I was the " only " Harley out there...  Just solidified in the students mind -  how mechanically unreliable and problematic the HD's were still back then....

[Jim 06B1100]

Thank you To MPH Cycles.  Excellent service and a high quality and effective after market part.  My starter relay upgrade kit arrived today. ( a rainy Saturday here in Western Pennsylvania) I had the part installed in about 10 minutes.  Instructions were clear and concise.  Bravo/Bravissimo Todd and Mike at MPH. ;-T ;-T

 :bike

Jim

[ITALN]

Along the lines with post #91, I just installed the MPH relay fix and all I got was my bike continueously turning over and not starting - take my finger of the starter switch and she keeps on cranking….. and does not start. Put it back to stock and she works, and I am sure it will go back to the intermittent fuse blowing problem again soon…..

Any advise would be appreciated. Although I am pretty mechanically inclined, when it comes to electrical, I am barely qualified to hold a drop-light.

Thanks!

[Wayne Orwig]

Along the lines with post #91, I just installed the MPH relay fix and all I got was my bike continueously turning over and not starting - take my finger of the starter switch and she keeps on cranking….. and does not start. Put it back to stock and she works, and I am sure it will go back to the intermittent fuse blowing problem again soon…..

Any advise would be appreciated. Although I am pretty mechanically inclined, when it comes to electrical, I am barely qualified to hold a drop-light.

Contact MPH.

[donp71]

Hi all,
I've just purchased one of these MPH kits for my soon to be Breva 1200 2V. Being not the most mechanically minded, can anyone give me a quick run through on where to plug into the correct relay please or how to identify it? The wires on the kit are all white, but numbered 1, 2, 3
Cheers

Don
 

[tris]

If its the one with the 2 white plugs they're handed so you can't plug them in wrong - the only tricky bit is finding the right relay

IIRC there's 2 that look the same but only one has the "YELLOW" wire

On my B11 there are 4 relays/switches on the RHS of the bike. Mine was the second one in nearest to the tank as you look at the RHS of the bike - YMMV

[donp71]

Thanks Tris

[donp71]

Hi all,

I'm pleased to say I've finally fitted the MPH solutions for Startus Interruptus. Thanks also to Peter Roper for having them in OZ and supplying to me.
Actually only did it once the battery was a little low after the bike was left for a couple of weeks without a ride. And sure enough, the "click" and not much else! Ok, time to fit the MPH kit.
After a couple of failed attempts at the right relay, found the right connection,followed the MPH instructions at the start of this thread, and all fixed , started no problem, no need to charge battery.
Thanks again to all for the great advice on this forum that meant i knew about the issue and  the fix (very easy even for a mechanical simpleton like me), problem solved and back on the road!!
Thanks MPH for a great fix and all fellow CARC riders here for the passion, encouragement and advice

Cheers
Don

[kingoffleece]

Are these still available?

[not-fishing]

Yep, I got one a couple of months ago.  You do have to call MPH though.

[PJPR01]

Hey King,

I was just there this morning, they've got several kits still...talk to Larry or Becky, they can get one in the mail to you.

Paul

[kingoffleece]

Ok-THX.  I didn't see this first and took up another wth an offer to sell me his.
If not, I call MPH.

Good on ya, mates.

[donp71]

Hi all,

Just wondering if I can get some guidance.
I have a 2008 Breva 1200 2V that i have fitted the "MPH" fix to as a precautionary measure a few months back.
Initially all seemed good, but in the last few weeks i have experienced the "click" and no start with it fitted. The bike has often been left not ridden for a week or so.
Following initial issue a week or so back, have just fitted a new battery as the one installed was pretty old.
Still having the same clicking issues and no start, with the new battery fitted.
With jumper leads from my car battery, will start every time. But left just on new battery in bike, will not start (occasionally, if clicked enough times, might start).

I am wondering if it may be the earth, as mentioned here i believe?
Can anyone tell me where this earth lead is (possibly behind the starter motor), and what I may need to check please?
Apologies for my mechanical/electrical ineptitude.

Also any other thoughts on things to check, would be much appreciated.
Cheers and regards
Don
 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Don,
         Unplug the start relay and check you have Voltage on the 30 socket with the key turned Off

Relay
  ---  30 direct from battery via a fuse
  ---  87  direct to starter solenoid
|  |  |
If 30 is alive only when the key is turned ON you have it wired wrong.

[Wayne Orwig]

Is it a faint clicks from a small relay, or a LOUD CLUNK from the starter?

Quick answer from your description would be a poor connection at the battery, ground, or starter. But we may need more info like battery voltage to be sure.

[mojohand]

Don,
         Unplug the start relay and check you have Voltage on the 30 socket with the key turned Off

Relay
  ---  30 direct from battery via a fuse
  ---  87  direct to starter solenoid
|  |  |
If 30 is alive only when the key is turned ON you have it wired wrong.

Any chance for pics? Sorry to ask, but that'd be helpful to those of us not quite so adept... Thanks in advance!

[donp71]

Thanks for the info so far guys. Will take a look at a few things in the coming days based off you suggestions and update you all.
Cheers
Don

[donp71]

Just to clarify a little, i get aloud "click" when i try to start it, after the dials do there normal sweep and fuel pump makes its normal noise.
cheers
Don

[Kev m]

Just to clarify a little, i get aloud "click" when i try to start it, after the dials do there normal sweep and fuel pump makes its normal noise.
cheers
Don

Loud can be sorta subjective, but if it's coming from under the cover on the starter at the lower side of the motor, then yeah, check the motor ends of the battery cables. Remove them, clean them, reattach. They're pretty easy to access, you'll have to remove that starter cover, and possibly the starter (I forget). But don't forget to detach the negative cable up at the battery first.

[Wayne Orwig]

If it is a louder clunk, and from the starter.
Then as Kev says, clean the large positive cable at the starter. (ground off at battery first)
Clean the cables at the battery.

You may have a failing starter. Measure the voltage at the starter when you try to start it.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I looked at a Breva750 for an elderly gentleman at the John Day national, I was surprised to find the start relay had no yellow wire. The relay on this bike was the rear most one. We identified it by measuring the resistance from the starter solenoid trigger wire to the relay base 87 contact and confirmed it by jumping from 30 to 87 so it cranked.
This gentleman had figured out with a short piece of wire to jumper at the solenoid he didn't need the start relay to work.
 

[donp71]

Hi all,

Followed some of your advice, cleaned the ground/earth leads near the starter motor form negative cable and also ecu, plus some extra vigilant attention to battery cable and terminals. Inspected all connections to starter motor/solenoid. Checked all fuses.
General check of all wiring and original "mph startus interruptus" . Put all back together.
Bike now starts no problems. Rode it around for 10 mins, left it for 3hrs. Started again no problems. Rode it home. Reminded myself why i own a Guzzi ,Love this bike!!Just need pipe now and matched fuelling to release the soul of my Breva 1200!!
Again my thanks to this wonderful forum and its members for the assistance.
Cheers
Don

[Kiwi_Roy]

What happens if a modified relay circuit sticks and cranks out of control due to the relay failing?
On the original setup the human turns the key off breaking the circuit to the solenoid, not just the relay. This is most likely why the factory did it this way. I have never had a bike do it, but I have seen the nuclear meltdown that can occur when a car starter circuit cranks to death. No doubt the legal dept had a say in that. Any thoughts from y'all? My apologies if this has been covered, I did not find it when I looked.

Hunter

I have seen something similar only it was the solenoid that failed. A friend asked me to have a look at his bike, near new solenoid would latch up every time without fail pulling the spade connector off made no difference, it would only drop out when the battery lead was broken.
When you take your finger off the button the relay breaks the circuit to the solenoid terminal but it's still powered up because current passes back from the closed main contact, through the heavy coil to the spade terminal then from there through the light coil to ground. The secret is the current changes direction in the heavy coil so instead of assisting the light coil it works in opposition to weaken the field.
I suspect in this faulty solenoid one of the windings was connected backwards or maybe a few turns shorted putting the coils out of balance.
In this case the starter got smoking hot before the battery was too flat to crank.

I don't believe the factory considered that at all, Startus Interuptus has caused 100 x the grief the odd sticking relay will cause, I don't believe they even know the starter pulls 45 Amps at inrush or they would have at least provided a 20 Amp fuse.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The MPH kit is a good one in that it wires 12 Volts directly from the battery to the relay.
One thing it doesn't address is the Wimpy wire from the relay to the starter solenoid.
I upsized this second wire on my Griso and measured the time it took for the solenoid to travel from rest until the gear is engaged and the motor spinning.
with the upsized wire it took half the time.
There are 2 coils inside the solenoid NOT 1 as shown on the schematics
One coil has a resistance of 1.05 Ohms
The other has a resistance of only 0.25 Ohms, this is wired from the spade connector to the motor armature.
Ohms law calculates the current at 59 Amps
At 12 Volts the solenoid draws ~59 Amps while it's stroking, this reduces to ~ 11 Amps while cranking because one heavy current coil is powered down