Lario rehab project begins. What we've learned..

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck, in the name of good taste and decency please dont use those RED fork gators.....please.

Sorry. They were *cheap* and they were out of black.. <shrug>  ;D

[wildduck]

Chuck;

You have given me new found respect for the small blocks, not to mention your wrenching skills,

Good job,

John

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck;

You have given me new found respect for the small blocks, not to mention your wrenching skills,

Good job,

John

Thanks for that, John.. I've mentioned before that the small block is a later design by the genius.. in my opinion..Engineer Tonti. Several things about the small blocks are a little more elegant than the early big blocks, and they carry on to this day. Do they have some warts? Sure. Most machines do.

[kevdog3019]

I've just gotta address this. I *don't* mean to offend you, but if you can change the way the rotors run out by different tension on the buttons something is wrong. Bear with me.
Both the wheel and rotor are machined on massive lathes. The idea being to make everything concentric and flat. Guzzi, and whoever makes the wheel and rotor, now have machining centers that are capable of completely machining the wheel in one operation.
In '87, that wasn't so, but that doesn't mean that the way they were made is any less accurate.
"Probably" here is how the rotor was machined. The rough casting is chucked up in a lathe, and the swept surface, Outside diameter, bore and chamfer is cut. Then, it is turned around, located on the machined surfaces, and the other swept surface and area where the bolts go in is cut.
Make sense? Everything is concentric and flat. You can see on this picture where the rotor and wheel surfaces meet. There are tolerances of course, but they are a very few thousandths of an inch.

When the wheel casting is machined, it is chucked up, and all the diameters will be cut, including where the rotor meets it. Then, it will be turned around, located on these machined surfaces and the other side cut. Again, the idea is flatness, parallelism, and concentricity. That way, when the rotor and wheel are mated, there won't be any run out, either axially or radially. This picture shows the mating surfaces. There are complicated gauges that check these sorts of things in production.

If you *can* change run out by changing torque on the bolts, either the wheel or rotor is machined improperly.. highly unlikely.. the rotor is warped.. possibly.. or there is a burr or piece of dirt, etc. under it on assembly.. most likely.
At any rate, it's your brakes.  :o If it were me, I'd be finding out why.  ;)

Thanks Chuck and I agree that things should be true on a wheel.  But, I have proved you can change the rotor by working the buttons.  Now... I'm not saying it's right to work the buttons, but it was the only solution we could find.  I had just spent hundreds having my rotors machined by the best of the best in machining Guzzi rotors.  They are flat from every indication I can tell.  They had been de-greased in a solution bath just before install.  Put them on with indicated torque settings, installed the wheel and spun it.  Rubbing occurred in only one from what I remember.  CHecked the brake pads and all was normal.  The bike had only sat on the stand the entire time the rotors were out, so nothing else had been changed.  The buttons proved to pull and push things just enough to where they needed to be with no rubbing.  I have zero pulsating now with these rotors.  Gawd awful before!!  Having a hand full of bolts in the end made me realize I must have just joined the Guzzi "mechanics club".  Just a joke!!!
I'm going to speculate that your bolts had seen some bad weather a time or two more than mine and needed some coaxing.  Those rotors look terrible in comparison to mine.  I was not impressed with the original machining on my rotors.
Thanks for the explain.
-Kevin        

[IceBlue]

Thanks for that, John.. I've mentioned before that the small block is a later design by the genius.. in my opinion..Engineer Tonti. Several things about the small blocks are a little more elegant than the early big blocks, and they carry on to this day. Do they have some warts? Sure. Most machines do.

I completely agree - but I assume that would surprise no one  ;D
A few years back, the SB was almost considered a joke among some guzzista. I've noticed that has changed somewhat with the new V7 line over the last few years, and a rekindled interest in the Lario (in spite of its inherent issues), which IMHO is a VERY special SB.

I just got my hands on some original factory US dealer communication. A V75 Sport was planned for release in 1987 with the 750 8V mill - I guess that later became the 750 Targa, but with the 4V mill, due to Guzzi dumping the 8V's in the bin. In those papers the 750 8V mill was claimed to have 81HP - I'm not sure what Luigi has been smoking that day, but some interesting pieces of information...

The original V75 was never supmitted for emission approval due to the dollar decline according to Guzzi, so it never made it to the US...

The basic 1977/80 SB design still remains like Chuck mentioned...It has proved its worth by now I think.
Ciao

[Chuck in Indiana]

Didn't do much on the scooter today. Yesterday, I had an unrepairable light in the bead blast cabinet go udders skyward, and when I was jumping through hoops putting a new light assembly in it, I heard a buzz, looked up, and saw smoke pouring out of a ballast on one of my 8 foot overhead lights.  :o Pulled the plug on that sucker, and left the premises post haste.  ;D I don't know what is in one of those antique (ahem) ballasts, (Mercury, I think) but I do know it isn't good for you. ;D Today, I finished putting a killer light in the bead blast cabinet, and pulled 16 feet of lights out of the paint booth, rewired them, and put them in the ceiling of the shop. I needs me some shades, now.. ;)
Ok, blasted those nasty looking rotors, and started taping them up for paint. Now, if this was a *restoration* a guy would just buy new rotors. They are available, and only cost somewhere around $275. Each.  :o ;D These are in good shape, just look bad, so spending a few hours of FREE (Guzzi Content) labor taping them up and painting them will pay dividends. Turn up the tunes, get out the taping tools, and spend some quality time taping, trimming, and thinking about all those poor guys that have to go to work.  ;D :BEER:
It doesn't have to be perfect, but striving for perfection is *only* good craftmanship.. ;)

[john fish]

Man, this thread goes into my all-time favorite thread list.  Thanks, Chuck.

[beardog]

 Chuck

   Very nicley done thanks a bunch for doing this. Also the bike is coming along great. :)

[Morizzi]

Interesting about the brake rotors Chuck. I agree on all points.  ;-T

I recently had to get the semi floaters off the front wheel of the Cali III due to a broken spoke.

I had one button head per side that refused to come out and unfortunately my impact driver didn´t have a 5mm allen accessory. I got 4 out manually but had to weld an allen key into the socket to try and get them out. I broke 2 allen keys!  :o I had some old keys not spanners like Greg did. I got one out but the other refused to budge. I eventually had to weld a 17mm AF nut onto it and fill up the nut with weld. Put a socket onto it with  breaker bar and it eventually yielded. Don´t know how hot I got that bolt but the retaining fluid certainly didn´t give up easily.

I´m more of a heretic than you. I don´t have the patience to mask up the discs. I hand/brush painted them with pot belly black. It is very thin and runs to a smooth finish. If I went over a bit onto the pad area I know that the pad will cut the line nicely for me.  :D

All good now. I thought about putting hex head bolts instead of the buttons. There was enough clearance on the fork sliders for them but they did stick out about 1mm more than the buttons so I replaced the buttons with buttons again. I wondered about the weight difference and found the buttons were about 2gr lighter. 10 up front so that is 20gr less of unsprung weight. Nothing that we would notice in the greater scheme of things but a psychological win.  :D

I like fork gaiters. All of my bikes have them. Red !!!!!!! Its always better to be overdressed than over looked.  :D  ;-T

Rod

[Chuck in Indiana]

I like fork gaiters. All of my bikes have them. Red !!!!!!! Its always better to be overdressed than over looked.  Cheesy 

 ;D ;D ;D Haven't heard that one, but I like it.. ;-T

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yesterday, when we were talking about the machining operation, I *assumed* these were cast. Nope, they're stampings. :o Wow! It takes some serious machinery to stamp something as heavy as this.. I'd say a 1000 ton press. Here is the tell tale sign of a punch and die at work..

I thought I'd show a little detail about how to tape these rotors. This is why you use a popsickle stick. You can get in and set the edges so paint won't bleed under the tape.

Tweezers and scalpel in use here. You *could* get your scalpel and blades at a medical supply. Like everything else medical, though, they'll be expensive. Farmers use the same stuff to castrate hawgs, and won't pay foolish city medical prices. Go to a farm store.  ;D Get several blades. When they begin to get dull, you won't get a crisp edge any more. Use them like they're free.. I used 3 to tape these two rotors.

The idea of all this, of course, is to keep paint from getting where you don't want it. You *really* don't want it on the machined surfaces where the rotor mounts. That area has to be scrupulously clean at assembly. Why? Do the trig. One thousandth of an inch between the rotor and wheel turns into 17 thousandths in one inch..

Anyway, had a good morning taping the second one. Sang along with the radio, and  saved $275.  ;D :BEER:
Gotta stay right at it, the weather forecast is for 50s in a couple of days, and I need to have the rest of the stuff prepped for paint by then.

[kevdog3019]

I'll send mine over Chuck.  You can put a dab of paint on 'em and figure out why the tolerances aren't tru.   ;-T  That's some work you're doing.
-Kevin

[biking sailor]

Chuck,

Just letting you know there are some of us following this thread with great interest that haven't commented, but do appreciate your work and sharing it with us.  You're making the world a smarter place!

Thanks!
Darren

[SteveAZ]

Chuck,

Thank you for posting all of this. I don't have a SB but this is really interesting and the general skills being passed on here are a huge bonus.

Steve

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck,

Just letting you know there are some of us following this thread with great interest that haven't commented, but do appreciate your work and sharing it with us.  You're making the world a smarter place!

Thanks!
Darren

Thanks for that, Darren.  ;D It's kind of hard to judge just how much interest there is. If what I've seen on TV is the world, it wouldn't take much to make it smarter.. ;) :BEER: But I haven't seen much on small blocks, so I thought this would be fun to do.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'll send mine over Chuck.  You can put a dab of paint on 'em and figure out why the tolerances aren't tru.   ;-T  That's some work you're doing.
-Kevin

It's just standard machine shop/manufacturing processes. It would be interesting to clean up your rotors and wheels real well, and put a dial indicator on the rotor and see what is happening.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Alrighty, let's continue getting stuff prepped for paint. I'd snagged a couple of passenger footpegs off ebay Cheap, and mixed and matched parts to get 2 good ones. Scuffed everything with a red Scotch brite pad, and masked them.

Sanded out the bad spots and hit the fork lowers with Scotch brite, too. Put some plugs in the bores where the axle goes to save time getting the paint out.

One of the issues that I wanted to address is the right clip on. Over the years brake fluid had been spilled on it, and it was pretty nasty.

Here is the (ahem) less than robust wiring on the switch gear. I wonder why it fails all the time? Relays are in order..

Now, let's get this clip on off.  ;D All you have to do is loosen the pinch bolts at the upper and lower triple tree, the clip on, and remove the fork leg. It doesn't budge. Uh oh. Drive some wedges in the slots of the upper and lower triple tree. Nada. Hmmmm. I really wanted to bead blast and zinc chromate that sucker, but just how likely am I to damage this fork tube that otherwise doesn't need to come out? Knowing me, I'd say it's 50/50.  ;D Sometimes, discretion *is* the better part of valor.. so I cut up some strips of 220 emery cloth and had at it. This is what it looked like before starting.

After all, corrosion control is the goal here. Prepped it, cut a hole in some plastic sheeting, covered everything, put on my respirator, shot it with zinc chromate, held my breath while I put the respirator back in it's bag, sealed it, and got out of Dodge. How's that for a run on sentence? ;D Tomorrow, I'll rattle can it black.

[John Ulrich]

Chuck,
I'm liking this level of activity.  ;-T
This is good practice for those rusty car rotors in the spring!!!
JU

[Danpw]

If you want to spread the triple clamp to get the fork tube out, rather than use a wedge. I find I get more control by removeing the clamp bolt, sliding a piece of stip steel in the slot and inserting the clamp bolt in the triple clamp from the other (front) side.

The bolt screws through the triple clamp and presses on the strip steel to force the clamp open, use a gentle hand as you can put a lot of pressure on this way. Advantages are more control and no wedge to fall out. Sorry no photo's as I'm at work.

Don't work to fast finishing the bike I'm enjoying this thread so much I don't want it to end.

Dan

[Chuck in Indiana]

If you want to spread the triple clamp to get the fork tube out, rather than use a wedge. I find I get more control by removeing the clamp bolt, sliding a piece of stip steel in the slot and inserting the clamp bolt in the triple clamp from the other (front) side.

The bolt screws through the triple clamp and presses on the strip steel to force the clamp open, use a gentle hand as you can put a lot of pressure on this way. Advantages are more control and no wedge to fall out. Sorry no photo's as I'm at work.

Don't work to fast finishing the bike I'm enjoying this thread so much I don't want it to end.

Dan

Thanks for that, Dan. It's not too late,  I'll give it a look. I know the bottom is a blind tapped hole, so that wouldn't work on it, but don't remember the top for sure. When I go out later in the day, I'll give it a try. I *think* the top is the problem.. and if I can get the leg out relatively easily I'll do it.

[Mark West]

If you want to spread the triple clamp to get the fork tube out, rather than use a wedge. I find I get more control by removeing the clamp bolt, sliding a piece of stip steel in the slot and inserting the clamp bolt in the triple clamp from the other (front) side.

The bolt screws through the triple clamp and presses on the strip steel to force the clamp open, use a gentle hand as you can put a lot of pressure on this way. Advantages are more control and no wedge to fall out. Sorry no photo's as I'm at work.

Don't work to fast finishing the bike I'm enjoying this thread so much I don't want it to end.

Dan

I did this on my LMIV and even with that it was really difficult. had to find some pretty heavy steel for the bolt to push against.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I did this on my LMIV and even with that it was really difficult. had to find some pretty heavy steel for the bolt to push against.

I have some Brown and Sharp oil hardening tool steel that would be perfect for this job. Unfortunately, the bottom is a blind hole and the top isn't tapped all the way through. I looked through my meager supply of metric taps and didn't have one. I have ever 'Merican tap in the world. So, I didn't need to get that sucker off of there, anyway.  ;) Painted it on the bike..

[bad Chad]

When is this project going to be done?   I got things to do! :D ;)

[Chuck in Indiana]

So, let's clean up the front wheel while waiting for the paint to dry..
Spritzed it with Super Clean..

And it rinses off with water. I'm impressed, actually..

Wiped it down with one of my FREE towels, and put a coat of wax on it. I got this stuff at the IMS show a couple of weeks ago, and the huckster gave me a demo.. it's a cleaner wax about like most others. "Only 20 dollars. But wait... there's more.  ;D This week only for this show, I'll throw in another bottle, *and* 2 free micro fiber towels." How could I keep my wallet closed? It works ok, and made in Ohio. I saved my micro fiber towels for rubbing on Rosie and used my FREE towels from the hospital dumpster. Took about an hour.

It did a good enough job to see the run that Luigi put in there.. ;D

Now, I wouldn't make a pimple on a real painter's a$$, but I'll tell you the most important thing I've learned in painting a few things. You have to be able to see. Period. If you can't, it's like trying to weld without being able to see the bead. I'd just stolen some lights out of the soon to be demolished temporary paint booth, ca. 1999, and needed to move some lights around to be able to see well enough to paint. You have to be able to see the highlights as you are spraying, or you will spray too little (orange peel) or too much (sags and runs.) I'd found a can of aluminum that looked just like the fork lowers, and it said it could be sprayed at 50 degrees. I could maintain that today, and would get a head start on tomorrow's scheduled painting day. It's supposed to be quite a bit warmer, and the only way I can heat the paint booth is to suck warm air out of the shop. So, I prepped the lowers and hung them.

Sprayed them and.... they're *shiny* Yuck. I've decided that you can pay no attention whatsoever to what the cap on a rattle can looks like.  ;D Oh, well.. it's not the end of the world. I'll look at them tomorrow and decide what to do.

[Chuck in Indiana]

When is this project going to be done?   I got things to do! :D ;)

<shrug> If it doesn't last all winter, it's not a winter project.  ;D Motorcycles don't take long, I've had to stretch it out some, but a couple of more weeks should do it.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, so I dummied up the Hillbilly Chrome Just like on a Beater Pickup Truck lowers, and thought, "No."  ;D I'd thought maybe the Gaudy Gaiters would take your eye off of them but they actually looked worse than in this picture. Picked up my nastiest can of lacquer thinner, and wiped it off.

Our 50 degree forecast weather wasn't happening as rapidly as forecast, so decided to do something else while waiting for it to warm up. Kiwi Roy has made several posts about cleaning these old ignition switches, so I thought I'd give it a go. Took a picture so I'd know which wire went where..

and held the switch in a small V block so I didnt poke that small screwdriver through my hand taking it apart.  ;) Most dangerous tool in the shop..

Roy was right, of course, and the contacts needed cleaned up.

A few passes with a stainless steel toothbrush (actually I did a few more to brighten them up) some dielectric grease Vaseline, and it's ready to go back together.

It's idiot proof, will only go back one way..so line it up and crimp the ears back down.

That took considerably less time to do than to tell about it.  ;D
It's only 36 degrees outside, so still need to kill some time. The high and low beam indicator bulbs don't work, so let's fix that..
Remove these two screws, and peel the back off of the cluster.

Here you can see the 5 knurled nuts, washers, rubber bushings,  ::) that you have to keep track of to get to the bulbs.

Poking a screwdriver here on each side lets you pull it apart to remove the bulbs.

Checking the bulbs shows that no kidding, "they're dead, Jim."  ;D Surely, the DPOs idea of powering the ignition through the switch gear didn't have anything to do with that? <shrug>

A trip to AutoZone (ripoff artists, just sayin..) gets me a pair for only 5 freakin dollars. :o

So, put them in, put the ignition switch back in, and shouldn't have to deal with this stuff for a long time. By this time, it's warmed up enough to paint. I'm not happy with the paint I used on the drivetrain, it's just not tough enough, so I painted the fork lowers with bed liner.  ~;

Guzzi archeology here.. looks like one of these grab handles fits a 1000 SP, too.  ;D It's  the right color under the black..

Lots of little black pieces hanging in the booth..

Sanded out the sags and painted the valve cover.

Tomorrow, we'll paint the rotors (ran out of time today) and be done.

[LeRoy]

Yesterday, when we were talking about the machining operation, I *assumed* these were cast. Nope, they're stampings. :o Wow! It takes some serious machinery to stamp something as heavy as this.. I'd say a 1000 ton press. Here is the tell tale sign of a punch and die at work..

What with these rotors being stamped from sheet, I wonder if it's possible that they are less than dead flat. I've heard several times that removing and reattaching this type of rotor to the carrier could lead to an out of true condition; something that would indicate as lateral run-out at the perimeter of the rotor when fully assembled to the wheel. I believe this is what was alluded to in an earlier portion of this thread.

Do you have a surface plate (or granite countertop in the wife's kitchen)? It would be interesting to know if they are dead flat and if the surface that mounts to the carrier is completely true to the disc surface. Or maybe it's too late to measure with a little paint build-up to confuse things. As you say, a thousandth here and there, and soon your talking real money.

[IceBlue]

I installed a pair of new ones on my Lario last year. One was OK, one was less than completely flat/plain. Felt like it was warped, but looking at it the surface was uneven.

I assume it can be fixed in a lathe, but that's one tool I'm not quite familiar with and don't have...

[Chuck in Indiana]

What with these rotors being stamped from sheet, I wonder if it's possible that they are less than dead flat. I've heard several times that removing and reattaching this type of rotor to the carrier could lead to an out of true condition; something that would indicate as lateral run-out at the perimeter of the rotor when fully assembled to the wheel. I believe this is what was alluded to in an earlier portion of this thread.

Do you have a surface plate (or granite countertop in the wife's kitchen)? It would be interesting to know if they are dead flat and if the surface that mounts to the carrier is completely true to the disc surface. Or maybe it's too late to measure with a little paint build-up to confuse things. As you say, a thousandth here and there, and soon your talking real money.

Good idea, LeRoy.. after the paint cures I'll set up and check these rotors. A stamping is more accurate than a molded part, but cast iron is much more stable over time. If they are out, I'll see about fixing that.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I love pulling tape. It's fun to see the "new" look of the passenger footpegs, for instance. Will the rotors look new? Noooo, but they'll look a damn sight better than those rusty ones we started with. I hate rust.

Pulling at a 45 degree angle before the paint is cured gives a crisp edge.

Hung them back up to continue curing, and tomorrow with any luck at all, we'll see if they are flat,and if not make that so.  ;)