The New Indian Chief Thunder Stroke 111 merged threadfest

[oldbike54]

I wonder what Siegfried Bettmann would think of all of this ?
Dusty

[rocker59]

Except I don't think Bloor ever manufactured anything in Meriden.  

I did not say that he did.  And it is well known that he did not.  However, he did buy the property and the the rights to Triumph from the reciever.  

He did not buy a name from some company that bought the name from some other company who was awarded the name after a court battle fifty years after the factory was shuttered.

My only point was that drawing comparisons, as some people on the interwebs are doing, between Triumph and Indian just doesn't work.  The circumstances are/were completely different.

[rocker59]

Not that any of it matters.  Even the "old" Triumph company could not claim continuous production from a single location, as prior to WWII, the company was based in Coventry.

That has me wondering.  When you qualify "continuous production" with "single location", that thins out the field really fast.

BMW, and HD cannot claim that.  They are not producing motorcycles in the factories where they started.

Unless there is some obscure motorcycle company out there I'm not aware of, "continuous production from a single location" award would go to Moto Guzzi and Mandello del Lario.

[Kev m]

Companies grow and merge and change.

I don't think a single owner or factory is NECESSARY, nor even continuous production (if the new company stays true to the brand). Those factors are all nice from a marketing, brand loyalty standpoint. But one alone is not an absolute.

Therefore I find claims like Triumph is the oldest, continuous bla bla bla to be disingenuous.

My response to such claims would be who are you trying to fool? You didn't just teeter at the edge of oblivian, you fell over. You became a complete non-entity. You fell out of governmental and regulatory and industry guides and was, for all intents and purposes no more a manufacturer of motorcycles than the likes of West Coast Choppers or Orange County Choppers. You had no dealer or parts network, or marketing, or customer service or in any real fashion, CUSTOMERS. You were, if not flat lined, for sure in a coma.

[oldbike54]

Kev m , I don't think Rocker made that claim , just that the only MC co. in continuous production at the same location is Guzzi .
Dusty

[Kev m]

I'm not responding to Rocker per se, but to the argument (and those who might bother to make it in general).

[oldbike54]

OK , gotcha . I find this discussion interesting , everyone seems to have a slightly different view , normal for this crew . Triumph can make no real claim to continuous production , even the 75 Tridents were not built in the Triumph factory , and even though there were a few 500s titled as 75s , they were all built in 74
So even before the end of the CO-OP there was a break in production . I still do hold that Bloor has a better connection to history than Polaris , not that any of of that has any bearing on any of this . Dangit , now I am confused .  :D
Dusty

[Kev m]

Absolutely, I wouldn't argue that Triumph doesn't have a "better" connection to their history than Indian...that's a big freakin duh.

But you can also see the rebirth similarities too no?

[bad Chad]

3 hours to span 120 some odd miles doesn't sound like much fun through urban/suburban traffic.  I'll give you a Get Out of Jail pass on this one! :D

[oldbike54]

Sure can Kev , and I really do wish them well . Just because something is not to my taste does not mean I can't appreciate the effort .
Dusty

[Kev m]

3 hours to span 120 some odd miles doesn't sound like much fun through urban/suburban traffic.  I'll give you a Get Out of Jail pass on this one! :D

My all time shyte storm record was Philly to NYC (about 100ish miles) TOOK SEVEN HOURS ONCE due to holiday travel.

[rocker59]

My all time shyte storm record was Philly to NYC (about 100ish miles) TOOK SEVEN HOURS ONCE due to holiday travel.

Yeow!  :o

Shoulda taken the train, huh?

[rocker59]

But you can also see the rebirth similarities too no?

I'm just glad a heavy-hitter picked up Indian and is running with it.

The name deserves better than it's gotten over the past few decades.

[oldbike54]

My all time shyte storm record was Philly to NYC (about 100ish miles) TOOK SEVEN HOURS ONCE due to holiday travel.

Shucks , it took a buddy and me 6 hours to do 17 miles of a mud road in NM , counting dismounting front fenders , keeping the mud dug out between drive shaft housings and rear tires , and just general mayhem . NM 456 if anyone else has been on it .  ::)
Dusty

[Penderic]

Gearhead viewpoint.

I saw this vid posted up via ADV .... some tech differences between a HD and Victory V twin motor (2010) .... 1 of 5

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22146451&postcount=981

Hat tip Sneaky Steve.

link to utube series part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KueK_pyJHJE

[Kev m]

Gearhead viewpoint.

I saw this vid posted up via ADV .... some tech differences between a HD and Victory V twin motor (2010) .... 1 of 5

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22146451&postcount=981

That's a good piece and he has some legitimate points, like the Stator and the Cam-Chain Tensioners.

What he doesn't say is that the stator and the starter are NOT big issues, they don't have failure rates that make Harley want to change (or me want to worry about it).

I'm NOT a fan of the cam-chain tensioner situation (as I've posted before), and it's one of the reasons that the Indian, the Cali 1400, and the Vics are all in consideration for my next big bike. But to be fair, the new hydraulic controlled ones are lasting much better. I've SEEN the spring loaded ones last up to 40-50k miles, the hydro ones should last AT LEAST as long. But in either case, it IS an item that a Harley owner will have to open the cam chest (one small cover) and check at LEAST every 25-30k miles to be sure the shoes don't require replacement.

But yes, it still puzzles me why they didn't just go to gear drives on the cams and MAYBE even the primary.

[leafman60]

The cam tensioner deal is long past with HD.  You don't need to check em even at 30k miles.  Good lord.

The current design for several years is working fine.  I'm familiar with some long distance bikes and a friend is a dealer.  It is not an issue nowadays.

[Kev m]

The cam tensioner deal is long past with HD.  You don't need to check em even at 30k miles.  Good lord.

Not on TC88 motors - of which there are still about 1.5 million on the road.

The current design for several years is working fine.  I'm familiar with some long distance bikes and a friend is a dealer.  It is not an issue nowadays.

Maybe so, but until proven to ME (having seen some lunched TC88s) if I bought a TC96 or TC103 I'd STILL be checking em by 30k - maybe a little longer.

Hell, I thought the "new design" was supposed to be good for "50k" no?  Trust, yet verify.

[rocker59]

Shucks , it took a buddy and me 6 hours to do 17 miles of a mud road in NM , counting dismounting front fenders , keeping the mud dug out between drive shaft housings and rear tires , and just general mayhem . NM 456 if anyone else has been on it .  ::)
Dusty

BTDT.


It was a nice day, though.

[oldbike54]

Thanks Mike , it was raining on our adventure , and they had just built several new bridges . The new fill dirt on both sides of said bridges was the real culprit , stickiest mud I have ever experienced .
Dusty

[leafman60]

The earlier 88s had a few issues on the tensioner but that was changed even on the 88s.  The later 88s and certainly the 96s, 103s and 110s are fine.

You have several aftermarket gear drive systems for the cams but they usually make a bit of whine noise.  The stock camchain system works fine and nowadays even big-time tuners often retain it.

There has been a few problems with the stock compensator, the spring-loaded front primary chain assembly that absorbs V Twin pulses.  If you hop-up the motor very much you may need to install a Screamin eagle compensator.  Its not a big deal either.

[leafman60]

Focus for a minute only on the physical appearance of the two bikes.  I'm curious.  Physical appearance and taste are subjective and differs with different people but just look at these two pictures and say which one you think is the BETTER LOOKING machine.

[Kev m]

The earlier 88s had a few issues on the tensioner but that was changed even on the 88s.

Leaf - NO CHANGE was made the TC88 timing chain tensioner system until the 2006 Dyna redesign - AFAIK the one year only 06 Dyna was the ONLY TC88 platform that ever received (from the factory) the upgrades of the TC96 motor (that debuted on all BT models in 07), which included the hydraulically tensioned timing chains and a revised oil pump assembly, which the factory a few years later finally made available as an upgrade kit for the rest of 1999-06 TC88 production.

I know because I've had one friend with a 1999 TC88 who was the first to suffer the bad camshaft bearing failure and LATER was one of the firsts to completel lunch the motor on the tensioner failure, then more recently (this summer) I was on a tour with I believe a 2005 RK who suffered a failure (albeit at a higher mileage) and LOW AND BEHOLD, when we pulled into a random Harley dealer mid-Friday afternoon there was ANOTHER FLH in for the same repair (from which they stole the parts to get us back on the road).

certainly the 96s, 103s and 110s are fine.

DEFINE "FINE" - as long as you CHECK the tensioners - sure. Reports are that they are much better, and where some of the spring-loaded ones might lunch the motor by 20k these MAY go as long as 50k, but I sure as shyte wouldn't go that long without checking them personally. YMMV but it's a wear item, and a stupid one at that.

[Kev m]

Focus for a minute only on the physical appearance of the two bikes.  I'm curious.  Physical appearance and taste are subjective and differs with different people but just look at these two pictures and say which one you think is the BETTER LOOKING machine.

I'm predisposed to like the Harley better - but IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE I think it looks a little too busy and I prefer the Chieftain.

Ask me the same question with an RK and a Vintage and I'll PROBABLY tell you the RK (cause I hate the fringe and leather bags).

One thing I think Indian got right was clean lines and not a lot of excess angles/farkles etc. For instance, I'm really not a fan of the redesigned rear crashbar on the FLHs -  too many bends.

[oldbike54]

Somehow the Indian , at least from that angle , achieves "art deco" , the Harley just looks gaudy and too busy . At least they did not use those "hard candy" colors .
Dusty

[leafman60]

Score 2 for the Indian and its clamshell fenders....

[LowRyter]

BTDT.


It was a nice day, though.

that's quite a road.  took it 35 years ago in my VW Rabbit.  Rocks there are bigger than cars.  


Anyway has anyone ridden the Indian and the Cal 1400?   That would be a pretty good comparison.  I already know that the Cali will blow away the Harley.  Cali looks better than either of those gaudy barges.

[Kev m]

Anyway has anyone ridden the Indian and the Cal 1400?   That would be a pretty good comparison.

HOPEFULLY Jay and I will have in 2 more days - again, if the weather holds.

[leafman60]

Leaf - NO CHANGE was made the TC88 timing chain tensioner system until the 2006 Dyna redesign - AFAIK the one year only 06 Dyna was the ONLY TC88 platform that ever received (from the factory) the upgrades of the TC96 motor, which included the hydraulically tensioned timing chains and a revised oil pump assembly, which the factory a few years later finally made available as an upgrade kit for the rest of 1999-06 TC88 production.

I know because I've had one friend with a 1999 TC88 who was the first to suffer the bad camshaft bearing failure and LATER was one of the firsts to completel lunch the motor on the tensioner failure, then more recently (this summer) I was on a tour with I believe a 2005 RK who suffered a failure (albeit at a higher mileage) and LOW AND BEHOLD, when we pulled into a random Harley dealer mid-Friday afternoon there was ANOTHER FLH in for the same repair (from which they stole the parts to get us back on the road).


DEFINE "FINE" - as long as you CHECK the tensioners - sure. Reports are that they are much better, and where some of the spring-loaded ones might lunch the motor by 20k these MAY go as long as 50k, but I sure as shyte wouldn't go that long without checking them personally. YMMV but it's a wear item, and a stupid one at that.

Hey, Im supposed to be working and not watching this darn computer!

Harley tensioner shoes.

We're going back a decade so I cant remember all the details.  As I recall, they changed the actual polymer compound of the shoe itself in about 02-03 ?  Then they later redesigned the whole affair.

The tensioner thing was also joined by problems with the cam bearings first used on the new 88 back then.  The original pieces were balls and some failures were experienced.  The upgrade was to rollers.

My recollection is that both these issues were dealt with during the 88 run.  I had a later-model 88 and never experienced any problems.

If I had an early or mid-run 88, Id make sure all the upgrades were made.

With the later 96, 103, 110, I just don't hear or read about these issues.

One thing that has irked me with my late-model H-D are the wheel bearings.  Im shocked that H-D used third-world bearings.  They don't hold up.  I and others have encountered some wheel stability issues that were completely resolved once Timken/Fafnir or first-quality bearings were installed.

Ok, leaving this site and getting back to work.  TTYL

[Avvocato]

I also prefer the Indian's styling. It is retro yet modern with clean lines.