The New Indian Chief Thunder Stroke 111 merged threadfest

[Stormtruck2]

Focus for a minute only on the physical appearance of the two bikes.  I'm curious.  Physical appearance and taste are subjective and differs with different people but just look at these two pictures and say which one you think is the BETTER LOOKING machine.

I vote for the HD, though I would buy an Indian prior to buying a HD. The HD has a straighter stance/look, the fairing and forks don't lean back as much in appearance as the Indian. The longer wheel base on the Indian doesn't help it's looks. The fairing on the HD looks brawnier and wider than the Indian. The HD certainly has the LOOK that many have come to expect a touring/cruiser to have.  Yes it does look dated in some ways, but hell, I'm dated in every way except Carbon-14.  :D  I like the much more block/square look of the HD, much as I like the looks of the old style Town Cars, Rolls and Bentleys. Everything today seems to be going in the melted candy bar direction of styling.  Even my big truck semis are going that way.  I understand why, aerodynamics, but that doesn't mean it looks as good as bold and square.

[Kev m]

LOL - I guess I should be (am?) working too...

Well, the compound difference didn't work, well, maybe it did a little. Maybe that's why some went longer before chewing through them, 40k or 50k.

But there must be a reason that Harley came out with the hydro activated retrofit kit, and the kit is pretty common in dealers around the country. No?

 :BEER:

[Kev m]

The longer wheel base on the Indian doesn't help it's looks.

FWIW

Wheelbases

HD RK/FLH - 63.5"

Indian Chieftain - 65.7"

Victory Cross Roads - 65.7"

Guzzi Cali 1400 Touring - 66.34"

Guzzi Cali 1400 Custom - 66.9"
 
Indian Vintage - 68.1"

I should add that I have no idea why the difference in the Calis, might be real, or might be two different sources. I'm leaning towards the later.

[Stormtruck2]

I think maybe the trunk, seat and more vertical lines of the HD helps it look shorter, significantly shorter, than the Indian. It may be the perspective in the photo also.  Remebber, believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you SEE.  ;)

[youcanrunnaked]

Yes, Harley has made their old-tech approach "work," but to do so, they have had to design virtually every component bigger, heavier, and more complicated than it otherwise needs to be.  It's a Rube Goldberg approach to engineering that just rubs me the wrong way.

As far as styling goes, it's too subjective a topic to argue, but FWIW, I much prefer the looks of the new Indian Chieftain to the H-D Ultra.  The Indian looks like a fully integrated design, while the Harley looks like a collection of parts.

IMO, both engineering and styling-wise, it's the difference between incrementally tinkering with an established product, versus starting with a clean sheet of paper.  For better or worse, Harley-Davidson is saddled with their "tradition," and with it, the preferences of their "traditional" customers.  Nobody in their right mind would today design a Big Twin motorcycle engine from scratch.  A transportation engineering student who designed such an engine today would get an "F" in the course.

[rocker59]

So, the Polaris/Indian engineers get an "F" for the 111 engine?

[Kev m]

So, the Polaris/Indian engineers get an "F" for the 111 engine?

How so?

YouCan is talking about all the differences between the Harley motor and the Vic or Indian.

The Indian is unitized, primary gear driven, and probably uses design cues like the video points out about Victories like the stator and doesn't use tensioner shoes etc.

He's saying that someone who designed a new bike or motor today that DIDN'T use those new differences would get an F.

[rocker59]

He states:  Nobody in their right mind would today design a Big Twin motorcycle engine from scratch.  A transportation engineering student who designed such an engine today would get an "F" in the course.

I ask:  does this include the people at Polaris/Indian who just released an all new v-twin.


But, now, after re-reading it, I see that by "Big Twin" he meant "Harley-Davidson Big Twin" and not just a large displacement twin.

[Kev m]

Yup, I'm pretty sure he meant Big Twin®  :BEER:

[tiger_one]

and to tie this thread with the garage thread a while back.  From my 99 FXDX (also replaced the needle cam bearings which I still have also, WHY?)



P.S.  Guess what is below the seat on my shop stool tray?  Okay, that does it, I'm cleaning my garage, soon.

[Rotten Ralph]

This is getting good! :BEER:

It thus far took two responses to tell us what YCRN really meant! ;D ;D  ;D

[leafman60]

Ok, to continue the poll on looks, lets try pictures from another perspective.  Whaddya think?

[ohiorider]

What do I think?  I think I'm glad I ride what I ride.

But, yes.  These two bikes in the pic do have some similarities.  Especially the fairings.

[Kev m]

I think you really need a pic of a red Street Glide.

[oldbike54]

The HD looks much less "busy" in a single color . Sill like the Indian more . Dog , what am I saying , I like the new Indian  :o ::) , OH MY Fellas , where are my
meds ? Maybe I have a fever . ??? Of course the passenger would be happier in the Ultra .
Dusty

[Stormtruck2]

I really don't like the fairing on the new Indian.  I  like HD look better. I do like the looks of the classic Chief, or the mid level one better than the full Chief.

[Lannis]

Ok, to continue the poll on looks, lets try pictures from another perspective.  Whaddya think?

Same motorcycle except one has a droopy fender.   

Buy one of those?   Or a Honda that looks the same, or a Kawasaki?   Go for it!!   That don't confront me, long as I get my rent .....

Lannis

[LongRanger]

From an aesthetic perspective, my nod goes to the FLH. Haven't ridden either bike.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Is there a box I can check for Neither?  ;D

[leafman60]

Ok, well, lets add this one to the mix -

[youcanrunnaked]

Indian, all the way.

[Rotten Ralph]

Reminds me of the Ness Victory. Wonder why.

[Muley]

Someone explain this phenomenon.  At first I didn't like the looks of the Cali 1400, then I started to really like it, this from photos only.  Now that I can see photos together of the Harley, Indian, and Cali, I don't like the looks of any of them ???.

K.I.S.S.  should be applied to motorcycle design, and that of almost all things, IMHO.  These things just look too gaudy.

Oh well, gotta get back on the tractor now. ;)

[Kev m]

Reminds me of the Ness Victory. Wonder why.

A lot of people mistakenly credit Ness with too much of an influence on Victory.

As I understand it, he DID NOT design ANY bikes EXCEPT the "Ness" special-editions and some of their "Ness" labeled accessories.

But yes, it's no surprise that there might be a family resemblance to a Victory.

Someone explain this phenomenon.  At first I didn't like the looks of the Cali 1400, then I started to really like it, this from photos only.  Now that I can see photos together of the Harley, Indian, and Cali, I don't like the looks of any of them ???.

K.I.S.S.  should be applied to motorcycle design, and that of almost all things, IMHO.  These things just look too gaudy.

Oh well, gotta get back on the tractor now. ;)

Though I agree about the KISS principle - I think part of what you're describing is the phenomenon of how we perceive things. When there's nothing more to base it on we perceive it ALL by looks (first impression). But once we have any experience with someone or something we start to perceive it by memory and feelings as much or more than looks. The looks change in our mind even just from getting used to seeing something over and over, but moreso if we have positive experiences.

I was open to liking the Cali from the start, but perceived certain styling points to be a little gaudy, then started to like it more when I saw it in person and even more when I rode it. But as time has passed, I've started to think about those gaudy points again.

If I wind up with a Cali, there's a VERY good chance I'll go with the Custom (for looks) and find other solutions for bags and a windshield.

Similarly, I LOVE the Road King, but can't stand most of the Electra Glides because they are too gaudy. Actually I think the RK is a little gaudy too and wouldn't mind it being a little more understated (kinda more like the Switchback/FLD visually).

[Gary]

That's the nicest looking Ultra I've seen. I like the front fairing. I do prefer the style of the Indian Chieftain overall. The design of the bits and pieces is handled better and more consistently in the chosen style. To me there is something very engaging with the Indian style. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it beckons me. I like it.

[Kev m]

Hmmm, full report and pics maybe tomorrow.

Initial report....Gorgeous bike in person, no gripes with fit, finish, perception of quality.

Motor LOOKS huge...holy shit those jugs and heads seem massive.

Brakes, suspension, motor all felt as they should....strong, comfy, smooth etc.

LOTS to like, though same could be said about their competition too.

More soonish

[Avvocato]

I am thinking about doing a test ride so I am very interested in your opinion especially compared to the Cali.

[jas67]

I was with Kev M at the demo today.    

A few words for now, as I'm sure he'll cover it well with a full report, and I'll fill in any blanks later.

Torque.... lots of torque.
Beautiful bike with excellent fit and finish.   From the cast alloy frame to the absolutely gorgeous engine, it is well executed.
I'd have to get one out for an extended ride to really judge it's handling, as the demo ride was largely a parade.... complete with Motorcycle POLICE ESCORT.    Kudos to the moto-cops who escorted us through snarled NJ suburban sprawl traffic.     They even cleared a lane for us on a local highway so that we could at least get out of 2nd gear.    I was toward the back of the pack, a good place to be, as you can drop back a little to get a chance to experience the torque.    The red and blue flashing lights and occasional blast of siren was a bit disconcerting at first.   :+=copcar  ;D

Once rolling, the big 111 inch motor doesn't care what gear you have it in.    Did I mention torque?   It has a nice deep exhaust note.   The big twin is nice and smooth, or, they've done an excellent job of isolating the vibes without making you feel completely disconnected from it.

I don't have any seat time on a Harley Big Twin (only Kev's Sportster), so, I have to leave the comparison to Harley Big Twins to him.    For that matter, I've got very little seat time on cruisers in general.    In fact, I've always been the "anti-cruiser" guy, so, don't tell my sport bike friends that I like this bike  ;-T

I will say that it carries it's weight quite low, and doesn't feel like a heavyweight cruiser to lift off the side stand.   In fact, it didn't feel any heavier in that respect than the Cali 1400.

It is a LONG bike.    You definitely would need some room to turn this around in a parking lot.     It would certainly not be my choice for canyon carving, but that isn't what this bike is about.    I would say it would be a very comfortable mount for say, a 600 mile day of mostly super slab, or gentle sweepers,.

I hope that some bike rental place near me gets some of these, I'd love to rent one for a weekend of riding just to get to know it better.      I'd love to have the same experience with the Cali 1400.   When Kev and I test rode the Cali 1400, we had more of a chance to open it up and experience it more, but the experience was still quite limited.      Given the choice between the Indian and the Cali, I'd have to give the nod to the Cali, but, need to experience both more to compare them.   Both have a distinctive look to them and stand out in the sea of Harleys and metric cruisers (not to knock on Harleys).

At this point of my life, I really don't have a need for this type of bike, but I'm glad to have experienced it.     I think that Polaris has a hit on there hands here, and I'm sure that The Motor Company is paying attention, as per the Polaris marketing slogan "Choice is Coming".  I wish Polaris/Indian well, and look forward to seeing lots of these new Indians out on the open road.

Oh, and one last thing, as we were getting ready to leave, we saw a blue Cali EV in the parking lot.    Anyone here?

[tazio]

Mr.jas67, thanks for taking the time!
Following this excitedly.
Mr.Kev, you're up ;-T
Waiting w/ baited breathe.
 

[Tilter]

A lot of people mistakenly credit Ness with too much of an influence on Victory.

As I understand it, he DID NOT design ANY bikes EXCEPT the "Ness" special-editions and some of their "Ness" labeled accessories.

But yes, it's no surprise that there might be a family resemblance to a Victory.


Though I agree about the KISS principle - I think part of what you're describing is the phenomenon of how we perceive things. When there's nothing more to base it on we perceive it ALL by looks (first impression). But once we have any experience with someone or something we start to perceive it by memory and feelings as much or more than looks. The looks change in our mind even just from getting used to seeing something over and over, but moreso if we have positive experiences.

I was open to liking the Cali from the start, but perceived certain styling points to be a little gaudy, then started to like it more when I saw it in person and even more when I rode it. But as time has passed, I've started to think about those gaudy points again.

If I wind up with a Cali, there's a VERY good chance I'll go with the Custom (for looks) and find other solutions for bags and a windshield.

Similarly, I LOVE the Road King, but can't stand most of the Electra Glides because they are too gaudy. Actually I think the RK is a little gaudy too and wouldn't mind it being a little more understated (kinda more like the Switchback/FLD visually).

I love the road king too. As we 've discussed, but I too felt the regular ones were too gaudy for me. That's why I bought the FLHRS, the road king custom. One big "Hiawatha" headlight nacelle, no passing lamps, simpler trim, cleaner lines. Then I got rid of the beach bar and put on what Harley calls "street slammers". These are usually more for the Deuce or fat boy crowd, but they transformed the road king, making it even better to handle and forcing a more upright riding position - kind of like that on the cal 1400 custom.  I loved that bike - it was the one that got away. Funny enough I sold it to a guy in in e Deep South who flew up and rode it home, blowing the motor within two weeks because some screw in the air filter vibrated off and shot through the engine, or something like that. Owner ended up putting an even bigger motor in it - I thi k he was going to do that anyways.