Guzzi reliability

[Don G]

you know, every Guzzi that I own, spanking new or recently acquired is taken apart an gone through to ensure it is correct. I dont mean right to a million pieces but to the point that every thing that needs service or corecting gets put right . RESEARCH your model and correct its faults, nothing is perfect and if you want perfect.... , well that dont exist! To enjoy a Guzzi you have to be an enthusiast, meaning you need skills that are acquired and an aptitude to apply them. They are one stout motorcycle when correct. If you are not prepared or able to put some effort in, it will be costly and disappointing for you. Same thing killed the British motorcycle industry, they too had soul and style, the posers who whined about them eventually bought something other and carried on.  DONG

[Wayne Orwig]

I've got a buddy with a lot of miles on an '82 Wing and I bet he has had as many/more issues over the years as any of the Loop Captains around here.  That includes major structural issues with the frame.  My last Honda leaked fuel all over my leg.

The key to a good Guzzi is to buy one from one of the old farts on this board.  They'll have it all sorted for you so all that's left to do is ride :) 

I wonder if my Honda can even be started?
But then, I would need to add a couple of quarts of oil first because so much has leaked out.

I have a friend that has had to pull the engine out of his Goldwing a couple of times. If you ask him, it has never had a problem. Selective memory.

[oldbike54]

[quote author=Wayne Orwig link=topic=64638.msg988578#msg988578 date=1378868

I have a friend that has had to pull the engine out of his Goldwing a couple of times. If you ask him, it has never had a problem. Selective memory.

[/quote]
Kind of like my now HD riding buddy talking about how much more reliable his Harley is than his now departed K1200 LT . The BMW got ridden  15K a year , the Harley sits in the garage . Uses less gas also . ;)
Dusty

[OLD-WAN]

 :beat_horse :wife: **C

I think barenekd pretty well hit the nail...only the verbose individuals who know about this forum make the noise, the rest do what's needed and get on with it...in well earned silence.

NO ONE ever made a perfect ANYTHING and if they did, SOMEONE would whine about not being able to make a buck on repair parts...just think how many people would be out of jobs...basically EVERYONE...there isn't a person on this planet that doesn't derive their daily bread from SOME type of "BREAKAGE"...SO BE HAPPY THINGS BREAK.

[spgott]

Thanks again everyone.  Not looking for perfect, just what to expect.

What I gather here in a nutshell - please correct me if I'm wrong...
-A Guzzi owner has to do some tinkering. 
-Often there is a settling in period but will be solid after that.
-Most issues are probably a result of the low mileage over so much time.
-Regular inspections are particularly important, especially for daily riding.
-A second bike is probably wise.
-Locktite is my friend

I'm actually interested in learning a bit about very basic maintenance.  As oldbike said, I need to find a Guzzi fanatic locally here in Jacksonville who is willing to help me get familiar with the California.  I was recently at a Friday Night Social at Ton Up Jacksonville, a local shop and meeting place that specialized in European flavored bikes and I saw a gorgeous California III.  After getting some food and looking around a bit, I was going to creepily stake out the bike to meet its owner but it was already gone.  Perhaps next month...  If anyone on this board is from Jacksonville, FL and is willing to get together, I'd sure appreciate it.  Beer/coffee on me. 

My dealer has been very good to me.  They were a Honda dealership that recently expanded to european brands once the local Scooter Superstore went under.  They sell Guzzis but are still very new to them so I'm sure are not super well versed in the brand.  I have a strong loyalty to their sales team but not sure if the service team is really going to help me as much as needed.  There are some small local shops I'll check out as well...look for a Guzzi Wizard as treebone put it.  And yes, they were totally unfamiliar with Harper's or other suppliers.  I recommended Harper's to them when they could not get in touch with Piaggio (it was August) but they didn't have the parts either.  I may try to get them myself from here on out as suggested.  Triple Jim- thanks for the info on glasses...that is something I'll probably need.  Getting harder and harder to read maps lately anyway. 

I'm keeping the California...it is just to beautiful and fun to ride.  I'll learn what I need to and get through the tough period and I'll even get a second bike to support my Guzzi habit.  I would regret selling it for the rest of my life.  I was thinking about the new Honda CB1100 but will probably get a Triumph Bonneville T100.  I've ridden my girlfriend's Bonnie extensively when the Guzzi has been in the shop and it is a fantastic bike...does everything very well and has been very low maintenance and reliable.  Waiting for the new 2014 blacked out model...the Guzzi will be my flashy bike.  Need to learn some basic tinkering skills anyway...I'd love to eventually pick up a Ural.  Things may certainly change but right now, I hope to never own a car again and a sidecar rig would allow me to move further north and still ride in ice and snow with less risk of going down.  Definitely need to tinker to own a Ural.  Of course a color matched hack to match the Guzzi would look pretty awesome as well.  Better find something more lucrative than a zoo job...

Funny story - When my left valve cover gasket first started leaking, my lady and I were on a weeklong tour of south Florida.  Minor leak but of course the transverse V means it leaks all over my boot and floorboard and gets pretty slippery.  I called a shop in Fruitland Park that mostly worked on Harley's.  I asked if they'd look at a Moto Guzzi and he said he hadn't even seen on in twenty years.  I replied it was an air-cooled V twin and he'd probably be fine.  Took it in and explained my issue and after his daughter, the mechanic took a long look at it, she looked up, smiled and said; "Well there's your problem...the engine is turned the wrong way". 

Thanks everyone for talking me down from the ledge.  Was in kind of a fit of frustration but I have a plan now.  Treebone, CalVin 2007, cwiseman and any other California riders - I may be back with some questions for you guys soon enough. 

Steve

[oldbike54]

Glad to hear . As I said the support you will receive in the Guzzi culture is unequaled in the MC world . Hell , my daily ride is an old beemer , and these guys don't hold it against me  :D Well , most of the time anyway . Good luck , the adventure is just beginning .
Dusty

[Kentktk]

The key to a good Guzzi is to buy one from one of the old farts on this board.   

I think at 50 wouldn`t you also be one of the "old farts on this board"?  ???

[Kev m]

I have a friend that has had to pull the engine out of his Goldwing a couple of times. If you ask him, it has never had a problem. Selective memory.

Kind of like my now HD riding buddy talking about how much more reliable his Harley is than his now departed K1200 LT . The BMW got ridden  15K a year , the Harley sits in the garage . Uses less gas also . ;)
Dusty

I'm sure some have selective memories, but to be specific:

My 96 RK needed one repair in 65k miles, a transmission input shaft seal.

My 96 R1100RS needed a new master cylinder and TWO rear main seals in 40k.

My 00 Jackal needed a starter, regulator, rear fender, every fuel line, every external oil line, brake light switch, tail light, ignition switch, fork seals, and arguably a rear main (always weeped a bit) in 40k miles.

My 06 Breva needed a fuel filter and starter wiring mod (both to keep from being stranded), a ECU reflash to stop pinging, and a $900 dash in 20k miles.

My airheads needed less work, in more miles, but still more than my RK (rear main seal on one, timing chain and diode board on other, rings on both).

My current Sportster (07) has needed one $5 exhaust bracket in $20k miles.

The 04 and 05 Sportsters never required anything, but mileage was too low to count that (15k in both cases).

The 93 Sportster DID require some work in 40k miles, more like my 96 oilhead - base gaskets, speedo cable, oil tank cracked, tail-lamp bulb, license plate bracket (last three were all from vibration as that was the only solidmount Sportster I owned for that reason).

Japanese bikes all broke too - but I can't really compare as they were all bought used (old enough and with enough miles) that it isn't really apples-to-apples. Items that went were usually ancillary - electrical systems (stators, regulators), cooling/oiling systems - hoses, thermostats and what not.

[youcanrunnaked]

Obviously, some people have had trouble-free motoring on their Moto Guzzi bikes; a significant number have had a series of niggling problems that have required sorting; and more than a few have had major problems that have left them stranded or worse.  There is a word for this type of quality:  spotty.

Don't get me wrong; I am still a fan of the marque, just, not to the point of being delusional.

[mickyvee]

 :-\ My brand new 1200 Sport Corsa has had a few issues, all fixed swiftly under warranty. When the warranty expires however............ ...........!

[Rough Edge racing]

 There's a big difference between doing scheduled maintenance and trouble causing the machine to become non rider.Constant electronic failures are because of poor engineering,poor quality or both.
 I rode Triumph twins for 30 years and only once had a real problem but still was able to limp home.None of my bikes had stock wiring,did more than required service and probably most important,I wasn't a long distance rider.
 For me a bike is more about working on it than riding.So an old school Guzzi with no modern engine management makes it far easier to deal with.
  Aircraft pilots might say,more isn't always better, two engines rather than one doubles the risk of an engine failure    ;D

[st2lemans]

Just the fact that you have listed four breakdowns and who knows how many others that were "a push from home" tells me something.

Yes, but this is over 28+ years and 160k+ miles of Guzzi ownership.

Tom

[blackcat]

All kidding aside, I think Guzzis (especially later model ones) can be VERY RELIABLE.

All of my Guzzi's have been mostly reliable except for my CX and that was due to it being completely abused by the time I got it and it took many years and thousands of dollars to get it where it is now. But it never stranded me and I took more than few long distance rides on that bike.

I have probably met and talked to more people in everyday and long-distance rides on my Guzzi's than I would if we were talking about riding a Honda ST1300,etc. but that is pure speculation. Anyway, I enjoy the bikes even with the occasional burps and farts.

[Dilliw]

I think at 50 wouldn`t you also be one of the "old farts on this board"?  ???

Well  this year I did buy my first pair of red suspenders ;-T but in the Guzzi world I'm a snot nosed pup  :BEER:  I bought my bike from Zibell and he's a real old fart.  ~;

[RayB]

I see discussions about marque reliability on different forums all the time. That is what they are – just discussions. In order to get a true evaluation of reliability, we would need to have data on the fleet by model. Most of us posting are the ones most interested in online discussions and some owners could care less about online activities therefore not adding input. Reliability results from discussion are biased and not useful for anything other than relaying personal experiences that may or may not be transferred to the fleet of vehicles produced.

Also, we have to understand the difference between reliability and availability.

“Reliability” would measure the % vehicles that survived a given time( or mileage or whatever the aging factor is ) without failure for a given failure mode. If EV Guzzis ran 50k miles with only 5% of the all the EVs having a U joint failure we could say that the EV U-joint is 95% reliable at 50k miles. IF we had the data.

“Availability” measures the % of time the vehicle is available for operation. For example if my beemer can be fixed on the side of the road using my tool bag and back on the road on an hour it would be more available than if it had to be towed home and fixed – but his doesn’t mean it highly reliable.

In the industry I work in I see people confusing reliability and availability all the time. I see it on othe forums too. For instance on an airhead site I visit the ongoing debate about points being more reliable than electronic triggered ignitions. Arguments for points being more reliable generally go something like this: “If my points fail me while on the road I always have a spare set and can be back on the road in ½ hour therefore points make the bike more reliable” . This is faulty logic since points replacement due to wear out or other failure are many multiples of bean can ignition failures. Even though points ignition is more available than electronic ignition, electronic ignition is more reliable ( lower chance of failure per mile ).

My point of all this is that individual experience with a certain model bike is entertaining but we really can’t draw true reliability conclusions from it.

[Kev m]

I think barenekd pretty well hit the nail...only the verbose individuals who know about this forum make the noise, the rest do what's needed and get on with it...in well earned silence.

The Barenekd missed the point entirely - because he was suggesting that most people don't have problems - and you're saying most people have them, but just deal with them and don't talk about them here.

[Kev m]

Anyway, I enjoy the bikes even with the occasional burps and farts.

THIS is what brings me back... and I'm an optimist...  :BEER:

[RayB]

Me too.....I enjoy the ride and deal with the outcomes best I can - on both my bikes, not just the Guzzi.

[rocker59]

Obviously, some people have had trouble-free motoring on their Moto Guzzi bikes; a significant number have had a series of niggling problems that have required sorting; and more than a few have had major problems that have left them stranded or worse.  There is a word for this type of quality:  spotty.

Don't get me wrong; I am still a fan of the marque, just, not to the point of being delusional.

If you are relying on internet postings for your data, then your conclusion is strictly anecdotal.

[RayB]

If you are relying on internet postings for your data, then your conclusion is strictly anecdotal

Amen

[youcanrunnaked]

If you are relying on internet postings for your data, then your conclusion is strictly anecdotal.

Given the low sales volume, the sheer number of bikes that show design defects, manufacturing defects, assembly blunders, and service snafus is sobering.  Talk to anybody who regularly wrenches on the bikes.  I'm pretty sure guzzisteve will back me up.

[blackcat]

Given the low sales volume, the sheer number of bikes that show design defects, manufacturing defects, assembly blunders, and service snafus is sobering.  Talk to anybody who regularly wrenches on the bikes.  I'm pretty sure guzzisteve will back me up.

Big mistakes and small from some large manufacturer's of motor vehicles:

LATEST RECALLS ANNOUNCED BY MANUFACTURERS
September 9: 780,584 Toyota vehicles from 2006-2011, including RAV4 and Lexus HS250h models, Recalled for possible failure of the rear tie rod, which could cause a loss of vehicle control.
September 9: 133,081 Toyota hybrid vehicles from 2006-2010, including Highlander and Lexus RX400h models, Recalled for potential shutting down of the hybrid system, causing the vehicle to stall.
September 9: 101,584 Toyota Lexus vehicles from 2006-2011, including GS350 and IS350 models, Recalled for loose bolts on the Variable-Valve Timing system gear assembly, potentially causing the engine to stop while driving.
September 6: 270 Honda Pilots and Odysseys from 2013, Recalled for premature wear of engine pistons, which could cause the engine to stall.
September 6: 5,042 Bombardier Can-Am Spyder RT and ST series motorcycles from 2013, Recalled for brake fluid which may leak onto a heat source and possibly cause a fire.
September 5: 7,767 various Volvo vehicles from 2014, including S60 and XC70 models, Recalled for malfunctioning wipers and headlights.
September 3: 355,000 various Ford vehicles from 2005-2011, including Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis models, Recalled for potential loss of steering due to corrosion.
August 29: 1,931 Crossroads RV Redwood recreational vehicles from 2012-2014, Recalled for uncovered switch that may cause awning to unfurl while in transit.
August 28: 44 Kawasaki Concours police motorcycles from 2012-2013, Recalled for a faulty electrical system that could lead to engine stalling.
August 28: 129 DRV recreational vehicles and travel trailers, including Tradition and Elite Suite models, Recalled for awning motor assembly screws that may shear, causing the awning to unfurl while in transit.
August 28: 125 Navistar recreational trailers from 2013, including Trail Express and Traveler models, Recalled for awning motor assembly screws that may shear, causing the awning to unfurl while in transit.
August 26: 292,879 Chevrolet Cruze vehicles from 2011-2012, Recalled for faulty electric vacuum brake-assist pumps. When the pump fails, there is a loss of braking assistance, increasing the risk of a crash.
August 26: 488,144 Continental Aftermarket ATE Super Blue Racing DOT 4 Brake Fluids, Recalled for failing to comply with federal safety standards for brake fluids, leading to potential brake failure.
August 26: 419 Chrysler Fiat 500e electric vehicles from 2013, Recalled for half shaft joins that may loosen and separate, potentially causing a loss of driving capability.
August 23: 159 Spartan ERV Star Series emergency vehicles from 2005-2012, Recalled for a hydraulic ladder rack which may collapse.
August 22: 141 Airtex fuel pumps for certain GM vehicles from 2004-2008, Recalled for potential fuel leaks that increase the risk of a fire.
August 21: 9,345 Kia Sorentos equipped with 2.4 liter engines from 2014, Recalled for a manufacturing issue that may cause the right front axle shaft to shatter.
August 16: 239,000 Hyundai Azera and Sonata vehicles from 2006-2011, Recalled for potential damage to the rear control arms that may cause a change in alignment of the rear wheels, increasing the risk of a crash.
August 16: 20,300 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport vehicles from 2013, Recalled for a manufacturing error that may cause the right front axle to shatter.
August 16: 1,540 BMW X5 xDrive35d vehicles with a diesel engine from 2009-2010, Recalled for potential loss of battery power and vehicle fire.
August 16 269 Kaufman trailers from 2012-2013, Recalled for possible cracking of the kingpin, causing the trailer to detach while in transit.
August 16: Certain Chalet truck campers and travel trailers from 2013-2014, Recalled for awning motor assembly screws that may shear, causing the awning to unfurl while in transit.
August 15: 940 Jaguar XF 2.0L GTDi vehicles from 2013, Recalled for possible engine stalling and loss of brake and steering.
August 15: Chrysler Dodge Ram 3500, 4500, and 5500 trucks from 2012, Recalled for potential loss of power transfer from the transmission to the wheels.
August 14: 1,989 Jaguar XK convertible vehicles from 2011-2014, Recalled for failing to comply with federal standards for power operated windows, increasing the risk of injury.
August 14: 139 Morgan 3 Wheeler motorcycles from 2012-2013, Recalled for potential reduction of brake performance.
August 12: 6,308 Ford Focus vehicles from 2012-2013, Recalled for side maker lamps that may not function, resulting in less visibility and increasing the risk of a crash.
August 12: 2,336 Keystone RV Bullet and Passport trailers from 2013, Recalled for mounting fasteners that may fail and cause the jack to detach from the trailer.
August 12: 549 Cequent Performance electric trailer brake controllers for Dodge Ram 1500 trucks, Rrecalled for incorrect wiring, increasing the risk of a crash.
August 12: 202 Subaru vehicles from 2013-2014, Recalled for potential transmission problems which could result in rollaway.
August 12: 66 Columbia Somerset Niagara trailers with 14” wheels from 2013-2014, Recalled for wheels that may fall off during transit.
August 12: Various GM vehicles from 2014, including the Chevrolet Suburban and GMC Sierra, Recalled for loose brake caliper bolts that may reduce braking.
August 9: 342,451 Toyota Tacoma Access Cab vehicles from 2005-2011, Recalled for faulty seat belt pre-tensioners.
August 9: 11,097 Kawasaki Ninja 300 and 300 ABS motorcycles from 2013, Recalled for potential stalling during deceleration.
August 9: 268 Zero motorcycles from 2011-2012, Recalled for front caliper mounting bolts that may corrode and cause the front wheel to stop.
August 8: 680 various Piaggio motorcycles from 2012-2013, Recalled for a manufacturing fault that could cause the rear suspension to suddenly collapse.
August 7: 2,864,670 Fastec door handles for recreational vehicles from 2006-2013, Recalled for deadbolts that jam, making it impossible to exit the vehicle.

Shit happens in manufacturing be they big companies or small little podunk operations like Moto Guzzi with 7,000 +or- bikes sold worldwide.  :o

[Kev m]

Cat - I dunno man - hard to compare with such differences in volume.

But look at it another way - we had a poll on this board - something close to 40-50% of the dashes failed Brevas (a few on Norges which screwed up the numbers, because many Norges reported no failure and the % was likely higher on Brevas).

Anyway, CAN YOU IMAGINE the fallout if 50% of Toyota Corolla dashes failed and required a non-warranty replacement by say 40k miles (after the bumper-to-bumper warranty).

Speaking of that, just LOOK AT BIKE WARRANTIES.

Many bikes today cost AS MUCH as less expensive cars.

Those "cheap" cars all come with longer warranties than most every bike (except maybe the new Indian which comes with a 1 year / 5 year deal).

[GearheadGrrrl]

I just dredged up the out of service and breakdown records of my 6 motorcycles and 3 cars over 600,000 miles, a bit over half that on motorcycles. There were 3 on road breakdowns, all occurring on the motorcycles, one each on the Buell, BMW R100GS, and F800S. Each of these was due to a known defect- the belt on the Buell, the missing transmission circlip on the GS, and stator failure with no idiot light warning on the F800S. There were about 30 "out of service" incidents where the vehicle made it home but I deemed not to operate it before it was repaired. These ranged from dead batteries and iffy ignition wires to transmission failures and pulled studs. Here, the difference between vehicles was clear- On one hand, the F800S, R65LS, R80ST, and VW Golf diesels(2) averaged only one out of service incident every 60,000 or so miles. But the Buell had 4 out of service incidents in 60k miles, and the R100GS had 7 in 67k miles. In these two lemons, almost every failure was due to known defects like vibration from the Harley engine in the Buell to the aforementioned missing circlip as well as sloppy quality control in the R100GS. Fortunately the aftermarket and airheads have found fixes for the R100GS's defects and it's now reasonably reliable; The Buell is pretty much a lost cause, with no replacement available for the Harley "paint shaker" and the many failures it directly and indirectly causes.

My conclusion from pouring through this 600k+ miles of reliabilty data is that some vehicles like the VW diesels and the earlier airheads are right from the start, and some like the Buell and later airheads leave the factory with a bunch of defects that will drive their owners nuts. Oh, and my Guzzi Quota... Only put 5k miles on it, so too "new" to tell!

[RayB]

Missing circlip on airhead transmission - design decision that caused transmission reliabilty problems. The fix was to machine the output shaft to allow a circlip to be installed. \
This shouold have been done preventively once the problem was identified ( in '85 I think ).

Pulled cylinder studs - should not have caused on in-service failure. Usually happens right in the workshop and shouldn't be ridden until fixed with timeserts. This is usually caused by too frequent re-torquing and maintainer error in torque value.

Your one OOS event/60,000 miles is but one data point despite all the miles. If, in a perfect world, we had the OOS events/1000 miles for all the R100GSs and R65LSs we could have true reliability data. In the mean time we ride, live, and learn. What we can't really do is to say BMWs are more reliable than Guzzis, and so on

[oldbike54]

I don't remember where I read this , and it may not still be true , but a few years ago Triumph MCs spent less time in the repair shop per mile ridden than any other brand . Of course several factors are at play here , many older riders bought the brand , and may have done more of their maintenance , could be related to a good parts and service network among other things .
Dusty

[GearheadGrrrl]

Yup, suppose I could figure up the standard error stats and check for validity. Using mere "inspection", the 3 on the road breakdowns that resulted in tows/trailering probably don't reach statistical significance. However, there were enough (30) out of service events and the difference between the vehicles with the least and the ones with the most probably reached statistical significance- For example there was a huge difference between the R65LS and R80ST's reliability and the later R100GS. Goes to show how even BMW can perfect a design in the early 80s, then let it go to hell in the late 80s and early 90s.

BTW, the whole goal of this statistical exercise was to decide if I should buy a new car to replace my 2003 Golf TDI or not. I found that some vehicles like the R65LS and R80ST are still reliable even at 30 years of age, while the R100GS and Buell were unreliable right from the start. I'm thus going to ride the airheads more despite their age, maybe keep the F800S closer to home due to it's poor parts availability, and I'll probably put off buying a new TDI 'til the A7 comes becomes available here in a year or two. The Buell is already semi-retired in South Florida and doesn't wander far from it's home there.

[blackcat]

Cat - I dunno man - hard to compare with such differences in volume.

True, but stuff happens even to the best of the bunch.

The Ducati voltage regulator prematurely went on my 93-1000S back in 96. Should I blame all Guzzi for this?
The rotor(s) warped on my 07 Norge-Should I blame all Guzzi's for this? And they sent me two.

[Kev m]

True, but stuff happens even to the best of the bunch.

The Ducati voltage regulator prematurely went on my 93-1000S back in 96. Should I blame all Guzzi for this?
The rotor(s) warped on my 07 Norge-Should I blame all Guzzi's for this? And they sent me two.

Of course not, those are more reasonable failures and one a wear item.

[oldbike54]

The biggest issue I have had is tire wear , dang beemers and Guzzis seem to go through them at an alarming rate , and don't even get me started on gasoline and oil , sheesh . ;)
Dusty