Aero engine rescue

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, some things aren't meant to be understood.  Spent a really enjoyable day turning wrenches yesterday.Catharsis, if you will.. thinking of absolutely nothing except putting this motorcycle back together, looking for something that's about to break, etc.
Dropped the frame back on, bolted the engine and transmission to it, and rolled it on to the lift. Found that while the Breva transmission is a bolt on, they are not quite the same. The vent is entirely different. Maybe they've figured out how to keep it from puking oil when filled up? Didn't see any signs of it. Linkage to the shifter is different. Clutch adjustment is different, too. Had to make an adjustment tool for that at great expense and intensive labor.  If you look for trouble on an old machine, you *will* find it, remember? Saw a crack in the insulation of one of the wires at the alternator. Sometime in the future, it would have failed. Replaced all three connectors.
Ok, got it all back together except for fluids.. might as well adjust the valves..it's been 3200 miles. Pulled the left valve cover, and EEKS there's no nut on the top cylinder hold down stud. <sweating bullets> hope the washer and/or nut hasn't made it's way to the pan. Nope. Both are laying in the top of the head. It had broken cleanly, pretty much like the one on the right head. Hmmmm. I've gotta be over torquing them. I was using 22 ft. lbs. Looked up the latest 750 I.E. manual, and it says 14.75. (!) Ok, now. Still have my piece of rolled thread M8 all thread, so I made a new one, torqued the head back down, and adjusted the valves. Went to the other side and changed the torque on it. Apparently, no damage done. Whew!
2 liters Motul 10-60.. kinda makes you want to do laundry.. smells a nice.. could only get 900cc of trans fluid in it, even sitting on the side stand. I'm assuming the previous owner drained it while it was cold and left 100cc in it.
Now for the acid test..
Started instantly.. that always brings a smile to me. Gotta love old timey ignition.. geared up, and went for a ride. Took it easy through the gears, thinking "shifts beautifully, and is *quiet*.  Looked down, and I was doing 3600 at 60.. the same as the Lario transmission. (!!)
Like I said, some things aren't meant to be understood, but there you have it.
I'd rather be lucky than good.. again..

[rocker59]

And now, for that dyno run....   

[zedXmick]

And now, for that dyno run....   

 :1: 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, ok.. I'll start calling around.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Maybe we should start a "Send an Aero Engined Lario to Dyno" collection fund? 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Just returned from the Dyno on the South side of Indy. "100 bux for 3 runs with air/fuel ratio.." "Ok, let's do one." "Whoa, what year is that??" "87" "Can't do it, my man.. don't want the liability of it coming apart on the dyno. Too old."
<sigh> At least I got in a couple of hours riding..

[normzone]

" Can't do it, my man.. don't want the liability of it coming apart on the dyno. Too old. "

Liability can be dealt with by appropriate boilerplate language and a signature.

What I think I'm hearing is " I had a bike come apart under load once and it tore the place up - not doing that again..."

At least that's what the lawyer lobe of my brain is hearing - you wiser fellows may know differently.

[johnr]

"Whoa, what year is that??" "87" "Can't do it, my man.. don't want the liability of it coming apart on the dyno. Too old."
<sigh>

Well, it's not out of the question. It could. After all, it's an absolutely full noise test. You wouldn't be too happy if it did that either.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If I was the least bit concerned that it would come apart, I wouldn't be riding it down there. 
Blow up a Guzzi by running it at full throttle for a few seconds?? Shirley, you jest. grumble grumble.

[smdl]

They're jest saying!  And stop calling me Shirley.  :)

Shaun

[O]

Clearly they haven't seen this thread...

[LowRyter]

'87 bike but the engine is new.

 

[Vasco DG]

Sounds piss-weak to me Chuck. Find someone who knows what they're doing. One of the problems Mark and I have had with dyno operators is getting them to do what we ask. We reckon that we're the ones paying the piper so we'll call the tune thank you very much but it's hard to get it through some peanut skulls sometimes!

As it is, while interesting, I wouldn't worry too much. You're enjoying it, it's running well, who gives a monkey's what the claimed power and torque are? Most likely, like most dynos , the results won't be accurate anyway as for most people it's more about bragging rights at the bar.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sounds piss-weak to me Chuck. Find someone who knows what they're doing. One of the problems Mark and I have had with dyno operators is getting them to do what we ask. We reckon that we're the ones paying the piper so we'll call the tune thank you very much but it's hard to get it through some peanut skulls sometimes!

As it is, while interesting, I wouldn't worry too much. You're enjoying it, it's running well, who gives a monkey's what the claimed power and torque are? Most likely, like most dynos , the results won't be accurate anyway as for most people it's more about bragging rights at the bar.

Pete

I thought the 3 runs with air/fuel readouts would probably be worth the money. That way I'd actually know if I could improve the carburation. I truly don't care about the numbers.. it makes enough power to make me smile. 

[twhitaker]

Tell them it is a transplant of a brand new airplane engine and you'd like some numbers to corroborate it, they might go along.

[kevdog3019]

WOW... I would think you'd have to sign a waiver regardless of year anyhow.  A little shocked they sent you away.  Something must have happened there or somewhere to scare them from doing it.  Hmmm...
Even my grenade launcher withstood several dyno's.  After last nights ride with new jets and testing again on a good run tonight, getting things right makes a world of difference.  Feels and runs superb, but am I there yet is the question??  I will only know by taking it too far, then pulling back.  Did you nail yours first try??  That would be shear luck with all you've done in my estimation as mine has been "running good" for several jet sizes now.  It's REALLY opened up as of the past two jets.  Imagine if the aero did the same from where it is. 

[pauldaytona]

There are more:
http://www.dynojet.com/DynoCenters/Dynojet-centers.aspx?Address=Indiana%2c+USA

[johnr]

I was of the understanding that  there was a concern that the extra power of the aero engine may be a tad too much for the dive line?

[kevdog3019]

I was of the understanding that  there was a concern that the extra power of the aero engine may be a tad too much for the dive line?

A good point of reference to this would be to talk to Ed Milich as he seems to run a 54-55 RWHP race bike with a stock V 65 drive line.  He's been at it awhile and he's not babying it.  This would be real-world data, not something thought up by WG engineers.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Time for an update. I've been all over the place with the threaded rod cylinder stud, but I have a leak on both cylinders. It's not something terrible.. I've seen *leaks* on aircraft engines..  but just annoying. After several hundred miles, there will be a mist that has to be cleaned off. My guess is that oil is traveling down the minor diameter of the all thread. The outer diameter is sealed with an O ring.
So.
Bought some 8mm O1 tool steel from McMaster Carr. Cheap. Like 6 bux or so. Time to make some cylinder studs. I've never cut metric threads before.. I'm a 'Merican, and my old LeBlonde Regal lathe doesn't do sissy metric stuff.  My toy Chinese lathe has Metric change gears, though.. so I'll give it a go. Thought maybe some of you guys might be interested in how to chase threads.
Here's my ancient (naturally) mechanic's bible..

In it is about anything a machinist needs to know. Turned to the metric threads area..
Tells all about em, and how to cut them. Turn the compound to 60 degrees, and thread depth is .033/.034 inches. All my measuring tools are in inches, so I have to convert metric dimensions. In this diagram, you can also see why I think the oil is finding it's way down the all thread. See the clearance at the minor diameter?

So. Let's cut up two pieces the right length..

And set up the lathe. This kind of cryptic placard is on the machine. We are wanting to cut a thread with 1.25 mm lead, after all, it's an M8X1.25..

Find 1.25, look up, and you can see gear B needs to be 36 teeth, gear A needs to be 30 teeth, and the lever is to be placed in position 1.
Here's the pile of gears. No quick change mechanism here.. 

Gear B is the small one at the bottom of this picture. A is (ahem) almost shown, but a little above the big gear and meshes with it. This combination will make the lead screw feed 1.25 mm every revolution.

Almost ready to cut, but first.. we'll go to the end of the thread and put a radius there. Since the thread depth is .034", we'll make it .036". That way the thread won't just suddenly stop and cause a stress riser.

Now to set up the threading tool. 2 things. First, it has to be on the centerline of the workpiece, or a smidgen (technical term) below. One way to tell is to put a 6" scale between the tool tip and workpiece. Very light touch. The scale should be vertical or a degree or so past 90.
 

This is a thread gauge. That sets the cutting edge 90 degrees to the work. Almost done, now. Remember that the thread depth was supposed to be .034"? Since the compound is set on 60 degrees, doing the Trig says that the compound needs to feed in .039". Make sense?

Ok, here we go..
First pass..

Looks good. Now.. threading goes really fast. There is absolutely no time to take a picture while the machine is running. This is *not* a real lathe, btw.. just a toy.. so light cuts have to be made. I made passes at .005" cutting depth, using cutting oil. A real lathe would cut this stuff like butter.
Took it down to .039", ran a mill file over the top.. and

I'll be darned. A nut even fits on it and feels good.  My first metric thread cutting. Even a blind hawg finds an acorn now and then. 
If anyone has followed this.. that's how threads are made. Now, all I have to do is get the Kid's Spot out of the shop and change out the studs. Maybe that pesky leak will stop.

[normzone]

Damn...I've not cut any metal worth bragging about, but I cut my inspection teeth on the type of parts and operations you're describing. My hat is off to you, sir.

[LowRyter]

keep it up.  The only running tools I've ever used are drills, saws and threading pipes.

I find this fascinating. 

Thanks for sharing. 

[twhitaker]

Gear B is the small one at the bottom of this picture.

 

[Unkept]

  Awesome!

I was talking to some VW mechanics yesterday (timing belt change and more on my car) and they were fascinated by the story of your Great Lakes project and Aero conversion.

You're a star Chuck.

 

-Joe

[Chuck in Indiana]

Awesome!

I was talking to some VW mechanics yesterday (timing belt change and more on my car) and they were fascinated by the story of your Great Lakes project and Aero conversion.

You're a star Chuck.

 

-Joe

Hi, Joe!  Star? No.. any competent machinist can do this stuff. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it)  it's a dying trade.. everything is becoming computer controlled. The "machinist" will eventually be the guy that loads stock and unloads parts from the machining center.

[tiger_one]

I haven't turned threads for years, also my old Monarch doesn't know metric.  Nice work.

[Aaron D.]

Turning threads was something I was taught in the mid '70s, I thought it was sooo cool. Still do.

[rboe]

Now I can't find my copy of Machinery's Handbook. 

[dibble]

Hi, Joe!  Star? No.. any competent machinist can do this stuff. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it)  it's a dying trade.. everything is becoming computer controlled. The "machinist" will eventually be the guy that loads stock and unloads parts from the machining center.

I really do worry about this.

I spent two hours trying to true the chuck and bed of my Colchester Bantam by the manual and got nowhere.
A work contact who did a traditional machinists apprenticeship showed me how to do it and a shortcut and  20 minutes later it was near enough for me.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I really do worry about this.

I spent two hours trying to true the chuck and bed of my Colchester Bantam by the manual and got nowhere.
A work contact who did a traditional machinists apprenticeship showed me how to do it and a shortcut and  20 minutes later it was near enough for me.

Well, there *are* some "tricks of the trade."  Unfortunately, skilled tradesmen are in short supply any more. Chrysler has been courting a friend of mine to come work for them as a tool and die maker, and he's 65. (!!!) Much of this kind of work went out of the country 20 years ago, and the guys that would have been teaching the apprentices are retired.